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Old 02-23-2014, 03:44 PM   #101
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No, it isn't. That's not the consensus in the cientific community and that's not what the American Psychological Association thinks. What is believed and taken as true is that sexual orientation has origin in a mix of factors: biological, psychological and social. It is believed that genetics may influence the predisposition towards one specific sexual orientation.
I agree with you completely, but I wouldn't bring this up in the same-sex marriage thread. They will tell you that SSM should be legal because gays have no more control over their orientation than blacks do over their pigmentation.
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Old 02-23-2014, 03:56 PM   #102
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While there is a rain delay in Daytona a little satire (while it's allowed) about Facebook jumping down rabbit hole of unlimited genders.

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Check Your Privilege, Facebook! Social Media Giant Slights Members of 51st Gender
By Alec Torres
February 13, 2014

As Patrick Brennan recently discussed on the Corner, it’s getting harder to know how to refer to another person’s gender(s). Now, Facebook is making it even harder.
The Associated Press recently broke the news that Facebook now offers users a customizable gender option with about 50 different gender-identifying terms people can use to describe themselves along with three separate pronoun choices: him, her, or them.

The grammatical debate over the application of the plural pronoun “them” to a singular subject aside, it’s a sad sign of the times that Facebook excluded whatever the 51st gender descriptor is, thus committing a hate crime against the dozens of people who probably describe themselves with said descriptor.

How dejected — nay depressed — must flexual people feel knowing that Facebook now accepts cisgender females, Trans*Men, and Trans*Males (don’t worry, the distinctions elude me, too) but not them and their girlfag peers.

Or what of all the trigender people who find out that Facebook will let one choose up to “bigender” but not beyond. They must be at least a third as offended as the flexuals.
(For a necessarily incomplete list of possible gender identities, please see the website genderqueerid.com. If you feel you identify with none of the terms on the list, the website is most likely phobic of whatever you may be.)

The changes Facebook introduced cover only users in the U.S., most likely because it’s hard to translate “genderqueer” and “transsexual female” into Kiswahili.

“There’s going to be a lot of people for whom this is going to mean nothing, but for the few it does impact, it means the world,” said Brielle Harrison, a Facebook engineer who is currently changing gender from male to female. Harrison says that Harrison is going to use the new options and change Harrison’s Facebook identity from female to transwoman. (My apologies for the multiple “Harrisons”. I was unsure of the correct pronoun for those who are born male and becoming female while also changing their gender identity from female to transwoman.)

For all the slighted genders, Facebook continues to offer the option to denote no gender or to choose “neither” or “other.” However, some are worried that choosing “neither –” thereby saying you do not apply to either of two options — implicitly favors the traditional male-female binary so overwhelmingly insensitive to the infinitude of other genders.

For the time being, those “others” whose gender descriptors are still not formally recognized by Facebook will continue to exist as second-class users, segregated from mainstream Facebookdom.
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Old 02-23-2014, 04:31 PM   #103
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I think there is another option with this whole Facebook thing, which is simply not to ask what someone's gender identification is. I understand that such identification is important to many people, but we could look at everyone simply as people rather than needing to break down a potentially infinite number of gender descriptions.
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Old 02-23-2014, 04:34 PM   #104
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You refuse to use precise language on principle?

The problem (one problem) is that we are not all born either male or female. There's a small but very diverse population of intersex people who are born with varying combinations of physical bodies and genetic sex who are not strictly speaking one sex or the other, so it's easy to see that gender and sex are not identical. Further, what's classed as "male" or "female" characteristics vary so much over time and culture that there is no firm, permanent way of "acting male" (or female, what theory wonks would call gender performance) that we can clearly tie to biological sex. And you only have to look at the epithets people throw at gays and gender nonconformists to know that there are LOTS of ways that someone who has a body of one biological sex can fail to "be a real man" or "real woman." Gay men are fags, not real men, ect. and women like Hilary Clinton or Lady Gaga are often speculated to really be men somehow. (Doesn't she have a penis under there? She's unnatural.) So how can we discuss these variations and complications without using language that differentiates gender expression from physical bodies?
Because no matter how hard one wishes it they cannot change their sex. I'll go with medical science over psychology and feminist gender-theory on this matter.

As a society we should not be encouraging these fantasies but should instead be compassionately helping individuals cope with their issues of gender.

Should we pretend a human can become a cat or lizard through body modification and self-delusion?

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Old 02-23-2014, 05:07 PM   #105
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Because no matter how hard one wishes it they cannot change their sex. I'll go with medical science over psychology and feminist gender-theory on this matter.

As a society we should not be encouraging these fantasies but should instead be compassionately helping individuals cope with their issues of gender.
What do you make of individuals with Turner Syndrome (XXX), Klinefelter Syndrome (XXY), XYY Syndrome, or one of the tetrasomies (like XXXY, XYYY) or pentasomies?
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Old 02-23-2014, 05:11 PM   #106
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I want to walk into traffic.
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Old 02-23-2014, 07:35 PM   #107
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Everyone is deserving of respect and compassion on a micro or personal level but society needs to be able to discuss issues on a macro level. Of coarse you don't shun a family member or close friend if they choose to drop out of school, suffer from substance abuse, become a single parent or other things that as a society we should continue to discourage or attach stigmas to.

You might think you're being compassionate for excusing or ignoring the cost to society but you're actually just increasing the chances of more and more individuals suffering the hardships and pathologies of these type decisions.
Society need not be made to accommodate the internal sexual confusion of so few and certainly should not add to the confusion by condoning the abolition of the idea of male and female as two distinctive sexes or promoting the idea of subjective genders.

Ohh thanks mate, I haven't laughed so hard in a long while
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Old 02-23-2014, 07:55 PM   #108
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Society need not be made to accommodate the internal sexual confusion of so few and certainly should not add to the confusion by condoning the abolition of the idea of male and female as two distinctive sexes or promoting the idea of subjective genders.

what are you even talking about?



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I agree with you completely, but I wouldn't bring this up in the same-sex marriage thread. They will tell you that SSM should be legal because gays have no more control over their orientation than blacks do over their pigmentation.
well, we could talk about how race actually is a social construct, or we could revisit history and the "one drop" rule and talk about how environment constructs race, we could talk about people who "pass" for one race or the other, but that might be a bit too complex for you, given this statement.

sexual orientation is fixed by a very early age and is in large part genetic but, most importantly, it is unchosen. no one has ever said that sexual orientation = race, but that each is unchosen.




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Because no matter how hard one wishes it they cannot change their sex. I'll go with medical science over psychology and feminist gender-theory on this matter.

again, you don't know what you're talking about. and, if anything, this belief should make you more compassionate towards those who do struggle with their gender since they really are trapped by their fixed biology.

but jeevy is right, there are individuals who are intersexed. usually, they will choose whichever gender is more comfortable and live as that, but they are biologically male and female. so, stick with medical science on this one.
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Old 02-23-2014, 07:56 PM   #109
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I want to walk into traffic.
Indy's posts have that effect on people.
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Old 02-23-2014, 08:10 PM   #110
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Old 02-23-2014, 08:18 PM   #111
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INDY seems to have a serious problem against people who are not like him.
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Old 02-23-2014, 08:20 PM   #112
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Everyone is deserving of respect and compassion on a micro or personal level but society needs to be able to discuss issues on a macro level. Of coarse you don't shun a family member or close friend if they choose to drop out of school, suffer from substance abuse, become a single parent or other things that as a society we should continue to discourage or attach stigmas to.

You might think you're being compassionate for excusing or ignoring the cost to society but you're actually just increasing the chances of more and more individuals suffering the hardships and pathologies of these type decisions.
Society need not be made to accommodate the internal sexual confusion of so few and certainly should not add to the confusion by condoning the abolition of the idea of male and female as two distinctive sexes or promoting the idea of subjective genders.
Honestly - and please take offence if you so wish - this is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Never have I seen someone get up on their moral high horse so high over something so ridiculous. I still think terms like cismale and cisfemale are pretentious, but I have absolutely no qualms whatsoever with people who want to refer to themselves as such if they see fit. It doesn't affect me at all, never will, and the world is not going to crumble in on itself as a result.

This is not to mention the fact that you seem to think issues of gender identity are analogous to drug addiction...? Or that being a single parent is abominable? Or that dropping out of school is automatically a bad thing?

Can you tell me what it's like to only be able to see black and white?
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Old 02-23-2014, 08:56 PM   #113
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Honestly - and please take offence if you so wish - this is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Never have I seen someone get up on their moral high horse so high over something so ridiculous. I still think terms like cismale and cisfemale are pretentious, but I have absolutely no qualms whatsoever with people who want to refer to themselves as such if they see fit. It doesn't affect me at all, never will, and the world is not going to crumble in on itself as a result.
This.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:05 PM   #114
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Old 02-23-2014, 10:00 PM   #115
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Biological sex and gender identity: differences and overlaps

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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Everyone is deserving of respect and compassion on a micro or personal level but society needs to be able to discuss issues on a macro level.
Of course.

Quote:
Of coarse you don't shun a family member or close friend if they choose to drop out of school, suffer from substance abuse, become a single parent or other things that as a society we should continue to discourage or attach stigmas to.
It might interest you to know that for a large portion of the population, being gay or identifying as a different gender than your birth one are not things that we as a society should continue to discourage or attach stigmas to.

Quote:
You might think you're being compassionate for excusing or ignoring the cost to society but you're actually just increasing the chances of more and more individuals suffering the hardships and pathologies of these type decisions.
You know, your claims of a "cost to society" might be an effective debate strategy of you could actually produce any evidence to support it.
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Old 02-23-2014, 11:48 PM   #116
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Should we pretend a human can become a cat or lizard through body modification and self-delusion?
ugh.
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:23 PM   #117
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What do you make of individuals with Turner Syndrome (XXX), Klinefelter Syndrome (XXY), XYY Syndrome, or one of the tetrasomies (like XXXY, XYYY) or pentasomies?
Is that who we're talking about? I would leave transsexuals out as well because they fell strongly enough to seek reassignment surgery. I would consider a transsexual female a female.
I did mention that there is a very small percentage of the population with sexual identity disassociations.
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:36 PM   #118
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what are you even talking about?





well, we could talk about how race actually is a social construct, or we could revisit history and the "one drop" rule and talk about how environment constructs race, we could talk about people who "pass" for one race or the other, but that might be a bit too complex for you, given this statement.

sexual orientation is fixed by a very early age and is in large part genetic but, most importantly, it is unchosen. no one has ever said that sexual orientation = race, but that each is unchosen.
Pretty sure you always make the analogy between SSM and anti-miscegenation laws.

Quote:

again, you don't know what you're talking about. and, if anything, this belief should make you more compassionate towards those who do struggle with their gender since they really are trapped by their fixed biology.

but jeevy is right, there are individuals who are intersexed. usually, they will choose whichever gender is more comfortable and live as that, but they are biologically male and female. so, stick with medical science on this one.
You know where this is going with 50+ genders. Increased sexual confusion, the need for "anti-transgender laws," lawsuits and accommodation by all of society regarding bathrooms, school sports, etc. See MA and CA recent laws.
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:41 PM   #119
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Can you explain and give an example and then a negative societal effect of "increased gender confusion."
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:45 PM   #120
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ugh.
Sorry you feel the need to marginalize the trans-species community. Inclusiveness requires that their voices and contribution to diversity be brought out from the shadows.

Henceforth I will identify as a cisHomo sapien.
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