Biological sex and gender identity: differences and overlaps

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by anitram

So he wants insane asylums back?

To be honest, there is a valid point to be had about how some jurisdictions make it nearly impossible for the state to hold mentally ill people in certain circumstances. In the name of personal liberty we have sacrificed some amount of safety (for both the patient and the public at large), and this is worthy of looking into. I actually wrote a paper for it which was published in a legal journal back in 2008 when I was still a law school student.

It is a fine line isn't it? I'm sure you commented that this was done for many reasons including civil liberty issues, cost, overcrowding but also the advent of effective anti-psychotic medications that allowed many patients to lead normal lives...if they took their medication.
I'm sure you commented also on the fact that prisons have now become society's de facto public mental institutions.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by martha

The Republican God didn't.

Ronald Reagan’s shameful legacy: Violence, the homeless, mental illness - Salon.com

With President Reagan and the Republicans taking over, the Mental Health Systems Act was discarded before the ink had dried and the CMHC funds were simply block granted to the states.

Some of us are old enough to remember this.

What did the states do with the money?

Are states powerless to address the problem? Is the answer to every problem a big, bloated program administered by the geniuses in Washington D.C? Why would a federal War on Mental Illness be any more effective than their War on Poverty or War on Drugs?

[martha]

Did you read the article?

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by INDY500

What did the states do with the money?



Are states powerless to address the problem? Is the answer to every problem a big, bloated program administered by the geniuses in Washington D.C? Why would a federal War on Mental Illness be any more effective than their War on Poverty or War on Drugs?

Real quick -- the problem isn't the people who live in DC, it's the people sent here by red state voters.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Sorry but that's BS. Suicide is always a tragedy but always a choice, an act of selfishness and cowardice that leaves those behind feeling guilty and feeling helpless and to to blame.



Am I equally at blame for the suicide rate among the chronically depressed and unhappy because I'm one happy SOB?



Humans have freewill. They have an intellect in which to overcome their genes, environment or emotions. But I know, it's mean to think people are ultimately responsible for their actions.



Off topic. All I have to say about that.

INDY, this post is cruel and heartless toward anyone who has seriously considered taking their own lives for any number of reasons. Your desperate attempts to justify your bigotry has only revealed your ignorance and horrible lack of empathy. I've been ignoring your posts as of late, but this I could not ignore. This is really sad that you would stoop this low, and even hurt anyone who saw this post, particularly those you gave no kindness to

[Galeongirl]

It's not so much cruel as very telling how he has no idea what it is like to feel so incredibly miserable and depressed and worthless that the only way out would be to kill yourself. Also that he has no respect for people who have felt that way, because he doesn't understand it. Sounds familiar doesn't it...

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

It's not so much cruel as very telling how he has no idea what it is like to feel so incredibly miserable and depressed and worthless that the only way out would be to kill yourself. Also that he has no respect for people who have felt that way, because he doesn't understand it. Sounds familiar doesn't it...

True, but his post touched a nerve for me and I'm sure anyone just browsing around. Overall, it just wasn't very kind.

[Galeongirl]

It is pretty insulting yes. But I stopped caring about the opinions of people like him a long time ago. As will the rest of the world some day, and these cruel and respectless opinions will die a silent death.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by Pearl

INDY, this post is cruel and heartless toward anyone who has seriously considered taking their own lives for any number of reasons.

Good. Maybe they'll think twice about the pain they'll leave behind and think three hundred times about the finality of the act of suicide. Maybe you missed the "all suicides are tragedies" part of the post. I'm anti-suicide. All major religions are anti-suicide.

Your desperate attempts to justify your bigotry has only revealed your ignorance and horrible lack of empathy.

Bigotry, hows that?

Those with suicidal thoughts need sympathy, compassion, treatment and love but they don't need enablers. One can have compassion and still acknowledge the truth that suicide is almost always a selfish act.

I've been ignoring your posts as of late, but this I could not ignore. This is really sad that you would stoop this low, and even hurt anyone who saw this post, particularly those you gave no kindness to

Too bad, I've enjoyed some of our conversations and in reality I bet we agree on the central message we should be sending even if we differ (greatly) on the language.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

It's not so much cruel as very telling how he has no idea what it is like to feel so incredibly miserable and depressed and worthless that the only way out would be to kill yourself. Also that he has no respect for people who have felt that way, because he doesn't understand it. Sounds familiar doesn't it...

Do you think suicide has only one victim? If i could get FYM to think just a little about what happens AFTER a suicide you might understand some of my sentiments.

[cobl04]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Good. Maybe they'll think twice about the pain they'll leave behind and think three hundred times about the finality of the act of suicide. Maybe you missed the "all suicides are tragedies" part of the post. I'm anti-suicide. All major religions are anti-suicide.

I used to think the same way as you - my mum's auntie hung herself and she was discovered by her 11yo daughter. I was really angry and upset to hear about it, and for a long time it informed my opinion on suicide. That it's incredibly selfish and a despicable thing to do given what happens to those left behind.

But clearly you don't have a lot of experience with mental health. I've since come around, through experiences of friends, family and a few of my own struggles. And the quote above is incredibly ignorant. People who are driven to suicidal thoughts don't have the capacity to think rationally.

[martha]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Do you think suicide has only one victim? If i could get FYM to think just a little about what happens AFTER a suicide you might understand some of my sentiments.

You assume so much here.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Do you think suicide has only one victim? If i could get FYM to think just a little about what happens AFTER a suicide you might understand some of my sentiments.

What is it you imagine "FYM" isn't thinking about when it comes to suicide?

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Do you think suicide has only one victim? If i could get FYM to think just a little about what happens AFTER a suicide you might understand some of my sentiments.

I had to edit this post because I was profusely swearing at you and admitting too much personal shit, but I'll just say you are a sad, ignorant man.

[KhanadaRhodes]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Do you think suicide has only one victim? If i could get FYM to think just a little about what happens AFTER a suicide you might understand some of my sentiments.

you have got to be kidding me. someone who attempts suicide is at their absolute lowest point. they're not doing it for attention or to get the cute boy in their class to finally ask them out. it's because they honestly don't see any other way to solve their problems.

am i saying it's right? it's not my position to judge. what i am saying is for those who are clinically depressed or suffer from other mental illnesses (which, by the way, you cannot just "get over", they are valid illnesses just as cancer so i take great offence to the whole "people with depression should get over it/stop being depressed/cheer up" mentality) will sometimes feel like there's no other solution. maybe it's because something horrible just happened, maybe it's to finally get the voices in their head to stop, maybe it's because they're tired of people bullying and taunting them.

[bono_212]

Please note: What I'm about to post is referring more to people who commit suicide as a result of bullying/depression and less about examples Khan is talking about above that involve extreme mental illness.

It's been really hard for me to read this thread the last few days or so. As a decent number of you know, one of my best friends killed himself last summer. It is one of the single-most devastating things to have happened in my life. I blamed myself and I still do, because I knew he was likely going to do it and I moved out of Texas anyways. I realize he was an adult and made decisions on his own, and I also realize that I have my own life to lead. The point is, though, as much as I'm angry with him for doing it and as guilty as I feel about it and sad and distraught and confused, I still realize that in his heart, he was a very, very unwell person. Reading some thing friends of his from high school said, I realize that every day I got to spend with him was likely borrowed time, as he had nearly killed himself then.

What I'm trying to say is this: Suicide is awful and I really wish that people would consider the people they would be leaving behind and seek help. I know that my friend was actively avoiding me towards the end, and that was because I think he'd already decided he was going to do it. He wouldn't let anyone help him.

Instead of what Indy is saying and trying to condemn and create villains those who do these things, I think it's more important that everyone try and be more aware of the people around them that they care about. Your sentiments are wrong, Indy. They're not helping, they're hurting. I hope that if you really had a person in your life feeling like people one the brink do, that you wouldn't just throw at them how evil what it is they're thinking of doing is and to only focus on those left behind, but more on the future and what is to be gained by trying.

Anyways, I hope that made sense.

[cobl04]

do we have a mental health thread?

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Do you think suicide has only one victim? If i could get FYM to think just a little about what happens AFTER a suicide you might understand some of my sentiments.

Where do you get that idea? Nowhere in my post I said something even remotely close to that. It's painstakenly obvious you have never had to deal with a suicide in your life because you are so blatantly ignoring the feelings and mindset of the person taking their own life. You don't think about what's going on in their mind because they do something WRONG in your eyes, thus they don't deserve compassion.

Your cute little photographs are wrong too. Suicide DOES prevent the person's life from getting worse afterwards, since there is no more life. And that is exactly the point of killing yourself. Because you cannot handle your life any more and even with all the people around you it becomes so much of a burden to deal with, it will seem like the only way out.

For someone who claims to be compassionate, you sure show very little INDY. Have YOU ever considered what a person killing themselves is thinking? I doubt it. You only see them as wrong, so they don't deserve a second thought and you think of the family left behind. Sure, as Ashley already stated, it's horrible to leave people behind because all they have left is guilt and questions. But that doesn't mean you can just blatantly ignore the problem that drove the person to suicide in the first place.


I am going to step out of this conversation as it brings up too many memories for me. Good luck with the rest of your life INDY. I hope you willl never have to deal with people like yourself.

[LJT]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Do you think suicide has only one victim? If i could get FYM to think just a little about what happens AFTER a suicide you might understand some of my sentiments.

Just a warning before anyone continues reading, it may be upsetting/triggering if similar to any personal situation.

I used to work for a voluntary organisation in the UK called The Samaritans, its basically a hotline for those dealing with any kind of personal crisis and needing someone to talk to, and most often this was suicide.

We would often receive phone calls at 2 in the morning, with someone having taken an overdose or bleeding out. They often just wanted to talk to someone in their final moments, just someone to be with them. I can tell you that it is an 'experience' being on the end of a phone line as the person goes silent on the other end. But that would be selfish, because those calls aren't about me, but having compassion and empathy for another human being.

Samaritan policy was we would never tell anyone not to commit suicide, we recognised their free will to make their own choices regarding their life. Our phones wouldn't give us their numbers, emergency services could only be called if we the caller wanted us to, though we would encourage the caller if still able to call them themselves as we occasionally got given fake addresses.

The people who called while suicidal, were not selfish people, their reasoning at the time, though flawed by all sorts of factors was often they were doing what they considered for the best even for those around them, that people would be better off without them. Yes we did encourage people to think of what happens 'after' they pass, such as who do they think will find them, do they have arrangements made, who would attend their funeral, the consequences were important to think about. This did dissuade some people which was great, but being their for people just to talk to and have someone listen was great enough in itself.

For you to suggest none of us have thought this entirely through is patronising in the extreme, you can shove it.

I really never get the Christian moralising on suicide (which I am assuming this is where your stance is driven from, suicide= mortal sin etc), since what you consider the most selfless act ever (Jesus dying for our sins) is basically suicide by cop. But hey martyrdom is all noble and crap.

[martha]

Originally Posted by LJT

I used to work for a voluntary organisation in the UK called The Samaritans, its basically a hotline for those dealing with any kind of personal crisis and needing someone to talk to, and most often this was suicide.

We would often receive phone calls at 2 in the morning, with someone having taken an overdose or bleeding out. They often just wanted to talk to someone in their final moments, just someone to be with them. I can tell you that it is an 'experience' being on the end of a phone line as the person goes silent on the other end. But that would be selfish, because those calls aren't about me, but having compassion and empathy for another human being.

Wow. God bless you for doing this work. That must have been incredibly difficult and draining.