Biological sex and gender identity: differences and overlaps

[Vlad n U 2]

People like INDY are a big reason why suicide attempt rates among young trans people (perhaps the figure isn't all that different in older trans people) are at 45-50%.

Originally Posted by martha

This is the same guy who said the United States was "post-racial" when Obama was elected, and genuinely thought that Nazis and Socialists were the same thing.

Good to see he hasn't learned anything since.

[jeevey]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Transgender athlete sues CrossFit for banning her from female contest - CNN.com



So who's right? Does Chloie Jonsson's right to sexual expression in California trump a private company's right to set standards for competition and eligibility for all competitors?

Once again with the sports. So many thanks to anitram in the last post for recognizing that in the scope of human existence, sports are rather small. But I think the way this argument always sticks on sports quietly outlines what's really at stake in these arguments: the high value placed on masculine-coded values like competition, toughness, raw physical power, the domination of ranking winners and losers, and hierarchy within and between genders that it creates. Sport is the church in which we worship these values, and gender trangression is a fundamental blasphemy of them.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Because only a lack of education can explain one who champions a different set of values, a different set of ideas and a different measure of progress than yours, correct?

You do absolutely demonstrate a lack of knowledge on this subject.

[digitize]

INDY, I get the impression that you are tying to imply that excessive compassion towards transgendered people is likely to create incentives for people to falsely believe that they are transgendered, leading to a whole host of problems for society. In other words, that it will lead to false positives, to misdiagnoses of transgenderedness. Is that correct?

While I disagree with such sentiment, incidentally, I can't help but think of one of my best friends, who (by his own admission) is not transgendered, but went through a phase of about three months feeling very strongly that he was. He, however, has an overwhelming tendency to jump from phase to phase.

[Irvine511]

And for every one child that jumps from phase to phase because of a more accepting society, dozens and dozens more won't kill themselves because someone was kind and told them they had a place in society as well.

[digitize]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

And for every one child that jumps from phase to phase because of a more accepting society, dozens and dozens more won't kill themselves because someone was kind and told them they had a place in society as well.

Yes, absolutely.

[martha]

Originally Posted by INDY500

I did? I think you are confused (or drunk) martha. But what's new about that?

For the record, I said the United States was "post-facial" when Bill Clinton was reelected and genuinely thought Obama was a Nazi zombie created in a lab from the body parts of dead, transgender socialists.

Ha! You DON'T have me on ignore.

[martha]

Originally Posted by INDY500

I did? I think you are confused (or drunk) martha. But what's new about that?

Dammit. You're right. You equated fascism and socialism.

http://www.u2interference.com/forums...ml#post6324720

 

And I posted my original post before I had a Pacifico with my carne asada tacos and guacamole.

[bono_212]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Transgender athlete sues CrossFit for banning her from female contest - CNN.com

So who's right? Does Chloie Jonsson's right to sexual expression in California trump a private company's right to set standards for competition and eligibility for all competitors?

Now, this, I find to be a whole different situation from the softball one. If she is post-op and taking hormones, wouldn't that no longer effect her as being, biologically, stronger than any other woman? I honestly don't know, the science behind that isn't something I've studied much, outside of basic bio classes in college.

[Galeongirl]

According to the article, she's had surgery and is on post op female hormone treatment. So yes, physically she probably won't have the male advantage anymore since those are mainly powered by testosterone. Big part of the hormone treatment is testosterone blockers and the regular female hormons. Asides from this, she's legally recognized as a woman. So yes, in this case this woman's rights should win. You can argue all you want but technically she's a woman now so she should be allowed to enter female sports competitions.

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by jeevey

But I think the way this argument always sticks on sports quietly outlines what's really at stake in these arguments: the high value placed on masculine-coded values like competition, toughness, raw physical power, the domination of ranking winners and losers, and hierarchy within and between genders that it creates. Sport is the church in which we worship these values, and gender trangression is a fundamental blasphemy of them.

I see truth in this, but what consequences does this attitude have for your perspective on women's sports in general? Is there value in women working in the framework of masculine aggression if, as I infer from your post, the value system of athletics is damaging in some sense to larger society?

[jeevey]

I don't have a problem with sports per se or with gender separation in sports. But I think that our society has accepted competition and the resultant rankings as inherently good things, as values of their own, and that I don't agree with. Competition can provide some good some times, but it's not inherently good. It's just one way of human relating. Partnership and collaboration are models of relationship that don't receive the same structural support and praise even though we quietly depend on them much, much more. I think our preoccupation with competition reveals how much our society is organized around what Rhiane Eisler calls the model of domination, as opposed to that one she calls a partnership model.

And really, that's what the biggest thing about cultural conservatism is, the deep conviction that someone needs to be in charge; there has to be an order of importance and we all have to know what it is, or else chaos will ensue. I know that we've relied on that model of social organization for thousands of years, but I think it's pretty unimaginative and stultifying to human beings. I think we can do better.

[iron yuppie]

Interesting, but it doesn't really answer my question. If women are partaking in a social institution built on masculine aggression (and that I grant you, as sports developed essentially as war games), does that serve to tear down gender distinctions or reinforce them?

[jeevey]

I think it can do both. It's important to realize that since gender is a social construct, activities and qualities are coded masculine and feminine rather than being inherently one or the other. So competitiveness is no more inherently related to males than empathy is to females--and studies show than men and women are in fact equally empathetic.

Sports, like most things, can cut both ways. We in the west often associate strength, sweat, competition, toughness, stamina and vigorous physical exertion with masculinity. Allowing women to these qualities definitely expands our understanding of gender and weakens the binary. On the other hand, when we say that the only way to be successful at anything is to do it in the masculine way, we reinforce the binary. For example many coaches have found that girls thrive under different coaching techniques than boys do, likely because of the way boys and girls are socialized differently. So if even within a given sport if we praise and prioritize 'masculine' ways of doing and achieving (even when these masculine forms are expressed by women) then we reinforce the binary.

For example, think of the way we think of women's hockey vs regular men's "real" hockey. Should women be allowed to get out the skates and whoop it up? Most of us would say sure. But is women's hockey "real" hockey if it doesn't include checking? Is it inherently boring and inferior if it's not as intentional about hurting people? Is it the soft lady kind, or does it emphasize a different skill set? Would women players prefer to check if they could, and what would that mean to them? How do male players feel about the violence encoded in the sport? If little boys have to be trained to be aggressive on the ice (and they do) and if adult men have to suppress their own fear of violence on the ice (and they do) then is how the aggression of the sport more appropriate to men than women? You can see the fluidity here. Gender expression, coding and policing shift all the time. That's why within academics gender expression is commonly referred to as a "performance": because we have a script but we're always revising and improvising.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by martha

Dammit. You're right. You equated fascism and socialism.

http://www.u2interference.com/forums...ml#post6324720

 

And I posted my original post before I had a Pacifico with my carne asada tacos and guacamole.

I didn't, Mussolini did. But feel free to start a thread on the totalitarian nature of the Left.

[Diemen]

You know, at a certain point this starts to look like trolling, Indy.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

People like INDY are a big reason why suicide attempt rates among young trans people (perhaps the figure isn't all that different in older trans people) are at 45-50%.

Russia has second worst suicide rate in the world | SOCIETY | The Moscow News

Russia has second worst suicide rate in the world

The Serbsky State Research Center for Social and Forensic Psychology announced that Russia reached second place in the world in suicide rates, behind only Lithuania.
Psychologists are worried about death rate that emerged in the last 20 years and say that only decisive measures by the state can help limit the number of suicides.
Almost a million in 20 years
The data suggest that “in the years between 1990 and 2010 about 800,000 Russians killed themselves, which is close to a million – a whole city,” head of epidemiology and social problems of psychological health Boris Polozhy was quoted as saying by Interfax.

And people like Vlad are the reason for the suicides in Mother Russia?

Of course not. Not only does my philosophy recognize inherent biological sex as true human nature but also the dichotomous flesh/spiritual nature of man. The latter which gives us, ALL OF US, freewill.

Vlad of course must reject that.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by Diemen

You know, at a certain point this starts to look like trolling, Indy.

Who dragged Nazis into this? Who is blaming others for suicides? Or for lacking empathy and compassion for that matter Dieman?

It would be nice if we could argue ideas without questioning the motives and character of each other.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Of course not. Not only does my philosophy recognize inherent biological sex as true human nature but also the dichotomous flesh/spiritual nature of man. The latter which gives us, ALL OF US, freewill.

what are you even talking about? what kind of nonsense pseudointellectual know-nothing crap is this?

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by INDY500

I didn't, Mussolini did. But feel free to start a thread on the totalitarian nature of the Left.

This chart from therightplanet.com seems totally unbiased and legitimate! /eyes roll out of my skull