BBC: What Happened to Global Warming?

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Ouch the EPA is wanting to regulate greenhouse gases. So does that include the largest greenhouse gas, water vapour? :shifty:

EPA Finding Gives It Effective Control of the Economy - Iain Murray - The Corner on National Review Online

The problem is that the president can't get off the train where he wants. He simply can’t stop what he has started. Under the statutory language of the Clean Air Act, the regulation of mobile sources tripwires regulations for all stationary sources that emit more than 250 tons of a designated pollutant. For greenhouse gases, that’s pretty much everything larger than a Gore-sized mansion. These stationary sources would have to get a Prevention of Significant Deterioration permit for any significant modification, as would any new source. They would also have to get operating permits. The upshot is that millions of buildings would be subject to regulations. Small businesses will similarly be affected, as millions of businesses emit that amount of greenhouse gases. Fast-food franchises, apartment blocks, hospitals — you name it — will find themselves subject to EPA bureaucracy.



To get around this, Obama’s EPA proposed a “tailoring rule” that would change the language of the CAA so that the threshold would be 25,000 tons. The legality of this is very much in doubt, as it amounts to the executive branch legislating, and is therefore a violation of the separation of powers.



Also under the Clean Air Act, any “pollutant” that “endangers” human health and welfare, and which is regulated for stationary and mobile sources, becomes subject to National Ambient Air Quality Standards. As described above, the Obama administration is in the process of fulfilling all these NAAQS criteria.



Last week, two environmentalist groups petitioned the EPA to regulate greenhouse gases under NAAQS. Soon the EPA will have no choice. Once the NAAQS kicks in — and it will — the American economy is, not to put too fine a point on it, screwed. The government won’t be able to permit anything larger than a mansion. Taken to the extent mandated under the Clean Air Act, the EPA would probably have to order the shut-down of most industrial suppliers and users of conventional energy.



There’s only one remedy for this otherwise inevitable regulatory nightmare. The Congress must pass H. R. 391, legislation offered by Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R., Tenn.) that prohibits the EPA from using the Clean Air Act to regulate greenhouse-gas emissions.
 
Got to listen to 30 mins of Rush today while at lunch and he asked a great question.

If the scientific consensus was that the earth was cooling rather than warming, as it was back in the 70's by the way, would they be telling us to increase our carbon footprint to keep the temperature static or slow the cooling?

Who thinks so?

Which got me thinking of a list. Under such a scenario, who thinks we would be told to do the following:

1) Drive bigger vehicles as often as possible. Deflate your tires, set CAFE standards for fuel inefficiency.
2) Rather than tax, give tax credits and subsidies on all fossil fuel energy to encourage usage.
3) Build as many coal plants as quickly as possible all around the world so every man, woman and child has a larger carbon footprint.
4) Drill baby drill, not cap and trade.
5) Call anyone that dissents a global-cooling denier or better yet; a stooge for Big Wind & Big Sun.
5) Cut down trees -- eat more meat, preferably polar bears.
6) Fly and limo in world leaders, journalists and movie stars from around the world to Climate Summits for no good reason other than to talk and dine on expensive food.
Wait... I guess we're already doing that one.

But you get the point, I hope. This isn't about saving the planet.
 
If you believe that astronauts have been to the moon and that the world is not flat, then you probably believe the satellite photos showing the Greenland ice sheet in full-on meltdown.

Interpretation of ice core data suggests that between 800 and 1300 AD the regions around the fjords of southern Greenland experienced a mild climate, with trees and herbaceous plants growing and livestock being farmed. What is verifiable is that the ice cores indicate Greenland has experienced dramatic temperature shifts many times over the past 100,000 years — which makes it possible to say that areas of Greenland may have been much warmer during the medieval period than they are now and that the ice sheet contracted significantly.
--Wikipedia
In other words, Erik the Red named it GREENFRICKINLAND for a reason.
 
Got to listen to 30 mins of Rush today while at lunch and he asked a great question.

If the scientific consensus was that the earth was cooling rather than warming, as it was back in the 70's by the way, would they be telling us to increase our carbon footprint to keep the temperature static or slow the cooling?

Pretty moot point since Rush(who has hired and fired hack scientists and been called out on it) and you don't believe that man has anything to do with the cooling or heating of this planet.

In fact Rush has actually said that burning of fuel does not effect the environment...
 
Got to listen to 30 mins of Rush today while at lunch and he asked a great question.

If the scientific consensus was that the earth was cooling rather than warming, as it was back in the 70's by the way, would they be telling us to increase our carbon footprint to keep the temperature static or slow the cooling?

Who thinks so?

Which got me thinking of a list. Under such a scenario, who thinks we would be told to do the following:

1) Drive bigger vehicles as often as possible. Deflate your tires, set CAFE standards for fuel inefficiency.
2) Rather than tax, give tax credits and subsidies on all fossil fuel energy to encourage usage.
3) Build as many coal plants as quickly as possible all around the world so every man, woman and child has a larger carbon footprint.
4) Drill baby drill, not cap and trade.
5) Call anyone that dissents a global-cooling denier or better yet; a stooge for Big Wind & Big Sun.
5) Cut down trees -- eat more meat, preferably polar bears.
6) Fly and limo in world leaders, journalists and movie stars from around the world to Climate Summits for no good reason other than to talk and dine on expensive food.
Wait... I guess we're already doing that one.

But you get the point, I hope. This isn't about saving the planet.

Rush's argument is absurd. Just like pretty much anything else the man says.
 
..
The next 11 presidents, both Democrats and Republicans, all had higher job approval ratings than Obama at this stage of their tenure. Their ratings were:

-- George W. Bush, 86 percent
-- Bill Clinton, 52 percent
-- George H.W. Bush, 71 percent
-- Ronald Reagan, 49 percent
-- Jimmy Carter, 57 percent
-- Gerald Ford, 52 percent
-- Richard Nixon, 59 percent
-- Lyndon Johnson, 74 percent
-- John Kennedy, 77 percent
-- Dwight Eisenhower, 69 percent
-- Harry Truman, 49 percent
 
Rush's argument is absurd. Just like pretty much anything else the man says.

You might try taking on the premise.

Do you believe mankind could prevent an ice age?

What is the "normal" temperature of the earth to judge whether we should be concerned about a warming or cooling trend?
 
Do you believe mankind could prevent an ice age?

This is the wrong question to be asking, this is why Rush and some of you guys are laughable... Your approach to science is :doh:

The premise is that if it is manmade then can't it me slowed down and prevented by man?

So these questions don't even make sense in this debate...
 
A review of global warming denialism
Question: What’s the difference between a computer salesman and a used car salesman?

Answer: A used car salesman knows when he’s lying.

I was reminded of this old joke when reading Jim Hoggan’s book “Climate Cover-Up: The Crusade to Deny Global Warming” on the campaign to obscure what science tells us about global warming: it’s happening and we’re causing it. Hoggan tells us about the cast of characters involved in this campaign and I found myself classifying them into two categories: those who don’t know they are lying and those that do.

In the first category we have Viscount Monckton of Brenchley, who has delusions of grandeur. He really is a Viscount, but he also claims to be a member of the House of Lords (he isn’t) and to have won a share in the Nobel Peace Prize (he didn’t). Monckton has a degree in classics and no training or experience in science or mathematics but he churns out papers full of equations (which he misinterprets) and graphs (which are wrong) that purport to show that global warming isn’t happening. Monckton recently gave a speech with 2 million viewings on youtube where he declared that that Copenhagen treaty will institute a COMMUNIST WORLD GOVERNMENT. In short, Monckton is a crank.

Now, if Monckton’s pet theory was, say, that the moon was made of cheese or the sun was made of iron nobody would pay any attention to him. But because his theory involves global warming denial, he is now chief policy advisor at a think tank called the Science and Public Policy Institute and touted as an expert on climate science. Hoggan describes a whole gaggle of such think tanks, all with fancy titles and funded by the fossil fuel industry. None of them produce science to be published in peer-reviewed journals but rather opinions than can be published in opeds or quotes for journalists to balance their stories and match a quote from a scientist at a research institute about their data shows global warming is a problem with a quote from a “policy analyst” from a think tank saying that no it isn’t.

Which brings us to the second category of person described — someone who knows when he is lying. An example of this sort of person is Steve Milloy. While Monckton wil say things that are outrageously false and outright crazy, Milloy is much more careful. Instead of telling everybody that cigarette smoke is good for you, he will raise lots of plausible sounding (but poorly founded) objections to studies that show that it is harmful. Milloy would raise these objections at his website junkscience.com, which pretended to be a place devoted to debunking bad science, but actually was devoted to debunking the notion that cigarette smoke was harmful. You won’t be surprised to learn that Milloy was secretly funded by tobacco companies.

The same techniques used by tobacco companies to obscure the science that shows that cigarette smoke is bad for you is now being used to cover up the fact that human activities are warming the planet. In fact the same people and think tanks that argued against a link between cigarettes and disease are now arguing that against a link between carbon dioxide and global warming. They don’t have convince people that there is no link — all they have to do make it appear as if there is a scientific controversy. Journalists help them in this task by seeking sources to provide a balance of opposing views rather than seeking sources with expertise in the subject area.

Too recent to be included in Hoggan’s book is the latest ugly turn in the campaign against climate science. A server in the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia was broken into and code and many emails were stolen and posted on the net.

By any objective standard the stolen data shows no evidence of any scientific misconduct, but private emails are particularly vulnerable to be taking out of context since the context is all previous communications between the two parties. The anti-science campaigners were therefore able to find emails they could misrepresent as proof of fraud. For example, in one email Phil Jones said that he had used a “trick” to “hide the decline”. This was taken out of context as meaning a decline in global temperatures, i.e., that he has dishonestly covered up evidence that global warming wasn’t happening. But in science “trick” just means a technique, and other emails make it clear that the “decline” wasn’t a decline in temperatures at all, but in tree ring density, a proxy for temperature. Before 1960 tree density tracks temperature quite well, but after 1960 temperatures go up while tree ring density goes down, so tree ring density stops being a good proxy for temperature. All Jones was doing was trying to avoid misleading readers into thinking that temperatures had declined after 1960 when they had not.

But none of this matters to the anti-science campaigners. Monckton claims that the emails were proof of fraud and has called for the criminal prosecution of the CRU scientists. Milloy denies that the emails were stolen, instead claiming that they were released because of a FOIA request and supports a call for Al Gore’s Oscar to be rescinded.

Regardless of what Monckton, Milloy and co say or do, the planet will continue to warm. Reality will eventually make their campaign untenable, but the danger is that they might succeed in delaying action to mitigate global warming.
Firedoglake ? FDL Book Salon Welcomes James Hoggan, Climate Cover-Up: The Crusade to Deny Global Warming
 
Nuclear winter if I remember the theory. Would that be preferable to a warmer earth?

These are almost as bad as your gay marriage arguments.

This one doesn't work, so let's try this one, this one sucks, so let's try this one, etc, etc, etc...

I see a pattern.
 
Nuclear winter if I remember the theory. Would that be preferable to a warmer earth?

What's preferable is that we lessen our negative impact, regardless of which direction that takes us temperature-wise.
 
These are almost as bad as your gay marriage arguments.

Right. No reason whatsoever to doubt any of the statements, actions or motives of anyone, at any level, arguing for climate change legislation or that the science is settled or trumpeting the coming apocalypse if we fail to act right now. None whatsoever.

Which can only mean one thing. OMG, I'm a greenophobe.
 
Right. No reason whatsoever to doubt any of the statements, actions or motives of anyone, at any level, arguing for climate change legislation or that the science is settled or trumpeting the coming apocalypse if we fail to act right now. None whatsoever.

Which can only mean one thing. OMG, I'm a greenophobe.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying :rolleyes:

My point is, at least try and debate it in an intelligent way. The conservative means of debating these two subjects is to throw anything they can at the wall hoping something will stick.
 
Right. No reason whatsoever to doubt any of the statements, actions or motives of anyone, at any level, arguing for climate change legislation or that the science is settled or trumpeting the coming apocalypse if we fail to act right now. None whatsoever.

Which can only mean one thing. OMG, I'm a greenophobe.

The inherent flaw in Rush's argument was that his ice age example wasn't caused by humans. His example was, "Can humans pollute the Earth to save it?" Which is absurd and illogical when discussing an issue that has to do with humans polluting the earth and needing to cut down doing so.
 
The inherent flaw in Rush's argument was that his ice age example wasn't caused by humans. His example was, "Can humans pollute the Earth to save it?" Which is absurd and illogical when discussing an issue that has to do with humans polluting the earth and needing to cut down doing so.

The problem is that there is no policy that can reduce C02 increases at the forseeable future so we are faced with a cliff where rich people are telling the rest of the population to jump first. Cap and trade has not and will not decrease C02 unless we go heavily into nuclear or find some other cheaper alternative (which doesn't exist yet). Having a carbon diet (especially in a recession) has its moral implications as well. Or we can shut down coal plants and eliminate the middle class. Humans are part of the environment.

Environmentalists can be totally religious by priortizing other life over our own but of course not themselves (which harkens back to Animal Farm). Some are always more equal than others.

YouTube - Crazy environmentalists mourn dead trees (now with annotations)
 

Hello! Maurice Strong is a Communist and I posted his recent criticism of the ballot box. What do you think a world government is that we can't vote for?

BTW attacking Monckton personally for gathering science that others did and presenting it is not going to stop other climatologists from responding to AGW attacks. Monckton got the Nobel Prize pin because of Al Gore (who represents the IPCC) and Monckton contibuted to the 2007 IPCC report. He was being sarcastic.

Welcome to the Copenhagen Climate Challenge Web Site

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index....Store_id=83947f5d-d84a-4a84-ad5d-6e2d71db52d9

All their arguments about how deniers are like tobacco companies can easily be thrown towards the AGW lobby. Anybody thinks that there is no wrong doing in the emails didn't read them. Deleting back up data so no one could check them or threatening to delete something to prevent Steve McIntyre from checking it is an enormous problem and denying (A-ha) the problem is not going to satisfy the critics and will create more critics as we are seeing right now.
 
The problem is that there is no policy that can reduce C02 increases at the forseeable future so we are faced with a cliff where rich people are telling the rest of the population to jump first. Cap and trade has not and will not decrease C02 unless we go heavily into nuclear or find some other cheaper alternative (which doesn't exist yet). Having a carbon diet (especially in a recession) has its moral implications as well. Or we can shut down coal plants and eliminate the middle class. Humans are part of the environment.

I agree to an extent: there has to be a methodical approach that moves no faster than we can afford to. However, denying global warming does us no good. I don't give two shits about some stolen e-mail propaganda: global warming is proven by science, and has been over and over again. The longer we delay actual progress with these redundant, baseless arguments, the longer it takes for us to make changes to our policies that can be beneficial both to the environment and to the economy.
 
Environmentalists can be totally religious by priortizing other life over our own but of course not themselves (which harkens back to Animal Farm). Some are always more equal than others.

Have you read your posts lately?

You come as the most "religious" in this thread. You believe any piece of junk science that comes your way as long as it supports your side.
 
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