Arizona bill 1070

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I certainly do not think overhearing someone speaking Spanish would be enough.

Yet, "he looked young" is enough for some judges. My point is that when there are not black and white descriptors set forth it leaves a lot of imagination sometimes.




As for reports that fit the description, in order to pull someone over just based on a description, it has to be relatively specific and credible(a Ford conversion van, it has AZ plates with the letters "D" and "Z" in it).

I got pulled over when I was 16 because there was a call about a "black and gray vehicle", no lie... Now I'm not saying it would have held up in court and he did just let me go, but once you get pulled over a lot of things can happen, what if I had beer on me, then I would have to figure out if it's worth my time and money to fight it.
 
Schwartz, a retired USPS worker, says undocumented workers are taking jobs from citizens like her teenage granddaughter, who hasn't been able to find a job since she began looking after she turned 15.
"She can't even work at the Hometown Buffet if she doesn't speak Spanish. How fair is that?"

But Schwartz and some other Americans with Hispanic backgrounds who spoke with CNN say the problem with illegal immigrants isn't just the jobs they take. It's how they're overrunning towns like Phoenix, turning them into "mini-Mexicos" with their trash-filled streets and loud music, according to Schwartz.

Of equal concern to her friend, Martha Payan, is how she claims illegal immigrants "fleece" government coffers by collecting welfare on multiple children, or vanish without a trace after an arrest or a hospital visit.
The two women, who became acquainted through various demonstrations in the metro Phoenix area, met Thursday to discuss their views outside the Maricopa County Municipal building, as more backlash against the controversial immigration law continued to flood the city.
Latin pop star Shakira arrived in town Thursday to discuss SB 1070 with Mayor Phil Gordon, who has vowed to fight the law. This comes a day after Mexico urged its citizens not to travel to Arizona.
Sporting a white baseball cap that that reads, "100% American Citizen," Schwartz says she believes that SB 1070 came about because law enforcement in Phoenix was fed up over not being able to ask suspects about their immigration status.
"Any time an American does something wrong or breaks the law they're going to pay the consequences. Whenever an illegal does something wrong they get a new ID and become a new person," she says. "I want the laws same for everybody here, not bent for them."
The 59-year-old mother of four adult children says her Mexican parents and grandparents taught her a respect for the law at an early age. Her grandmother, who lived in Juarez, Mexico, after being kicked out of the United States for smuggling drugs, encouraged her to get a good education and speak English, her second language, outside of the home.
"If I entered another country illegally I'd go to jail, yet they're demanding better treatment than their government would give us," she says.


Anna Gaines, a Mexican-born U.S. citizen, says she took up the fight against illegal immigration after becoming disillusioned by the attitudes of immigrant families that she witnessed as a teacher in the Paradise Valley School District in Paradise, Arizona.
"Many of these families were having one child after another just to earn a paycheck from the U.S. government and they didn't care about their children's education," says Gaines, the controversial founder of American Citizens United, a grass-roots organization known for its extreme views on immigration enforcement.
Gaines, who came to the United States as a nurse on a work visa during the Vietnam War and met her current husband, says she thinks immigrants have changed over the years.
"There used to be a level of dignity and self-respect. They were hard-working people who wanted to contribute to American society because it was better than where they came from," says Gaines, a petite woman in her 70s. "But our government has been giving them handouts for so long that now they expect them."
Gaines says SB 1070 mirrors federal law on fortifying the borders, allowing local officials to enforce immigration law in a manner that the federal government should have been doing all along.
"We as Americans have the right to defend this country's laws. There's nothing racist about protecting the country," she says.
Some Hispanic Americans hope law deters illegal immigration - CNN.com

I'm posting this to show that all kinds of people support Arizona's law. And I believe they have valid reasons.

ETA: I've also done some research on how Mexico treats its illegals, and apparently they do not treat them very well. Actually, it is worse than what Arizona is proposing. But then again, the sources weren't Reuters, AP, or CNN and the like.
 
Yet, "he looked young" is enough for some judges. My point is that when there are not black and white descriptors set forth it leaves a lot of imagination sometimes.

I thought I made myself clear......

Looked young would be enough for all judges if a 16, 17 yr old driver was pulled over and asked for proof of his age.

Verifying by age is quite non controversial. Age in and of itself is the question.

"He looked Hispanic" is "evidence" used to answer the question "might he be illegal?"

That is clearly not allowed.

At least show me you understand the legitimacy of questioning based on age as opposed to the illegitimacy of questioning legal status based on race.

Reasonable suspicion as established after the stop does leave some things to imagination, but not as many as you might think.

As for the initial stop, it is as close to black and white as an unprecedented and ambiguous law will get.






I got pulled over when I was 16 because there was a call about a "black and gray vehicle", no lie... Now I'm not saying it would have held up in court and he did just let me go, but once you get pulled over a lot of things can happen, what if I had beer on me, then I would have to figure out if it's worth my time and money to fight it.

Of course, a lot of things can happen.

I just think in the context of "there are illegal immigrants around" especially in a state with the Hispanic population of Arizona, looking the part would not be enough for the cops to pull you over.

Yes, sometimes descriptions are vague and the cops figure "black and gray, rare enough, in close enough proximity, what is he up to?" and pull you over.

However, this is no different than the time that I was stopped on the street when I was 16 and told to produce ID because they had a shoplifting suspect that fit my description.

Routine investigatory stop based on reasonable suspicion of being involved in a pre existing situation that they have an interest in. Those are fine in court.

If you had a beer on you during such a stop, i.e. you are committing another crime, you are screwed and non controversially so. Would definitely have held up in court. Same for an illegal stopped for another reason who is exposed during the stop.
 
Some Hispanic Americans hope law deters illegal immigration - CNN.com

I'm posting this to show that all kinds of people support Arizona's law. And I believe they have valid reasons.

ETA: I've also done some research on how Mexico treats its illegals, and apparently they do not treat them very well. Actually, it is worse than what Arizona is proposing. But then again, the sources weren't Reuters, AP, or CNN and the like.

Good point, Pearl!

I will just point out the commentary of Anna Gaines in that article is complete b.s., though.

"We have been giving them handouts for decades."

Illegal aliens are explicitly barred from getting any kind of federal government benefits. Period end of discussion.

This is probably the most widespread complete and utter falsehood in the entire political discourse.

Were the immigrants years ago more likely to want to assimilate to and appreciate our country and less likely to be illegals, most certainly.

Where she loses me is when she repeats a complete absurdity like "they're getting handouts."
 
Arizona deputy shot by alleged undocumented immigrants, authorities say – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs

A sheriff's deputy in central Arizona was shot Friday afternoon by a member of an alleged group of illegal immigrants, authorities said.

The Pinal County deputy, who was not immediately identified, contacted authorities after being wounded in a remote area, said Lt. Tammy Villar, a sheriff's spokeswoman. She said authorities believe he was shot with a AK-47. The deputy was being treated for the wound, but his condition was not immediately known, Villar said.

Pinal County is located between Phoenix and Tuscon and has been described as a key transit point for illegal immigrants. Sheriff Paul Babeu told CNN that an estimated 80 percent of illegal immigrants eventually pass through his county along the way to other locations.

Deputies in the department routinely patrol for illegal immigrants and smugglers, and it's not uncommon for them to be in the field alone, officials said.

It was not immediately clear what led the deputy to engage with the group on Friday.
 
FOXNews.com - Illegal Immigrant Suspected in Killing of Arizona Rancher

PHOENIX -- A prominent southeast Arizona rancher likely was killed by an illegal immigrant, but there's no evidence to suggest there was any confrontation that led to the shooting, authorities said Monday.

The body of Robert Krentz, 58, was located before midnight Saturday on his 35,000-acre ranch about 35 miles northeast of Douglas after his brother reported that he had lost radio contact with Krentz earlier in the day.

At a news conference Monday, Cochise County Sheriff Larry Dever said Krentz was out checking water line and fencing on the land Krentz's family has ranched since 1907. Krentz had weapons with him in his all-terrain vehicle but didn't use them, according to Dever.

Investigators said Krentz apparently came upon one person when he was shot. Krentz was heard telling his brother "illegal alien" on the radio earlier Saturday, and the area of the killing is a known smuggling corridor, according to authorities.

While Krentz was still in his vehicle, mortally wounded, he managed to drive the ATV away from the scene at a high rate of speed before becoming unconscious. The ATV still had its lights on and the engine running when authorities found it.

Foot tracks were identified and followed approximately 20 miles south to the Mexico border by sheriff's deputies, U.S. Border Patrol trackers and Department of Corrections dog chase teams, authorities said.

The sheriff's office said Krentz's body was transported to the Cochise County Medical Examiner's Office for an autopsy to determine approximate time of death.

So far, there have been no suspects identified and no arrests.

"We are assuming he escaped south into Mexico," Dever said of the shooter.

Dever told a Tucson newspaper that while investigators don't have a motive yet, retaliation has been raised as a possibility. The day before the shooting, the victim's brother, Phil Krentz, reported drug smuggling activity on the ranch to the Border Patrol.
 
I'm posting this to show that all kinds of people support Arizona's law. And I believe they have valid reasons.

You thought this woman had valid reasons? Like what? If they came over legally they still wouldn't be taking jobs? They still wouldn't be making "mini-Mexicos"? This woman is an idiot.


ETA: I've also done some research on how Mexico treats its illegals, and apparently they do not treat them very well. Actually, it is worse than what Arizona is proposing. But then again, the sources weren't Reuters, AP, or CNN and the like.

Why is it that when we want to support an issue like this, or torture, we say, "well look at what they do". Why not hold ourselves to a higher standard?

But your CNN, AP, liberal media dig was funny...
 
illegal immigrants kill police officers because they are ... illegal immigrants?

no, because that individual was a murderer.

immigrants are much more law-abiding than average americans. "illegals" as well.

whether or not an illegal immigrant murdered anyone has absolutely nothing to do with the questions at hand.
 
immigrants are much more law-abiding than average americans. "illegals" as well.
Except for the being in the country illegally thing. The driving without a license or insurance thing. The not filing Income Taxes thing. The falsifying work applications, lease agreements, banking records and such by lying or using stolen identities thing.

Or except for the empirical evidence thing:
The Pew Hispanic Center study from February 2009 found that even though Hispanics make up 13 percent of the adult population, they accounted for 40 percent of sentenced federal offenders in 2007.
whether or not an illegal immigrant murdered anyone has absolutely nothing to do with the questions at hand.
Somehow I can't imagine you ever expressing the same sentiment substituting "a member of the Tea Party" for "illegal immigrant." I really can't.
 
Except for the being in the country illegally thing. The driving without a license or insurance thing.

See? They got INDY... The law is working. Now his kid doesn't have to grow up in a classroom that is majority hispanic(this is in reference to a previous post of his).
 
Awhile back in reference to California approaching 2/3 hispanic kindergarten rooms. You were very concerned, you never told us why but it was a moment when you let your guard down...
 
Illegal aliens are explicitly barred from getting any kind of federal government benefits. Period end of discussion.

This is probably the most widespread complete and utter falsehood in the entire political discourse.

Two words. Anchor baby.

Look at the numbers. Look at the instant benefits. And look at the costs to states.
 
Two words. Anchor baby.

Look at the numbers. Look at the instant benefits. And look at the costs to states.

Look at reality.

Look at the costs for future prevention, look at the cost for deportation, and look at the cost when you have to actually pay full price for produce, construction, house keeping, etc...

The fiscal conservatives haven't pulled out their calculators latley, they're letting their fear take over.
 
Awhile back in reference to California approaching 2/3 hispanic kindergarten rooms. You were very concerned, you never told us why but it was a moment when you let your guard down...

I do remember that. And while those are 2005 stats I'm sure it's still true. My concern is that most of those Hispanic kindergartners can't speak English.

Are you not concerned by that?
 
I do remember that. And while those are 2005 stats I'm sure it's still true. My concern is that most of those Hispanic kindergartners can't speak English.

Are you not concerned by that?

Well, like I said back then, it's a double edged sword. Isn't it suppose to be majority rule? And why are we judging by kidergarten terms?

The fear is very xenophobic...
 
Somehow I can't imagine you ever expressing the same sentiment substituting "a member of the Tea Party" for "illegal immigrant." I really can't.



i guess you're right. illegal immigrants come here to work hard and better themselves, Tea Partiers want more money and are scared of black people.
 
Or except for the empirical evidence thing:
The Pew Hispanic Center study from February 2009 found that even though Hispanics make up 13 percent of the adult population, they accounted for 40 percent of sentenced federal offenders in 2007.


i see -- all Hispanics are illegal? all Hispanics are immigrants?

would you like to make the comparisons with all those legal african-americans?

you're not doing a good job with the whole we're-really-not-racists thing.

the fact remains that cities with high immigrant populations have lower crime and are generally better places to live.
 
My concern is that most of those Hispanic kindergartners can't speak English.

Are you not concerned by that?

Not at all.

It's very common among immigrant children of all backgrounds not to speak English when they enter kindergarten. Almost everyone I know (people in their late 20s/30s) who was born to Chinese, Polish, Indian, Ukrainian, Pakistani, Filipino, etc parents did not speak English when they started kindergarten. They were all fluent by grade 1.

If you read up some stuff on ESL and language retention rates at different ages, you'll realize quickly that this isn't a problem at all.

For the record, and anyone wondering, English is my third language.
 
Two words. Anchor baby.

Look at the numbers. Look at the instant benefits. And look at the costs to states.

Three words. Read my post.

I said illegal aliens can't get benefits.

Anchor babies, whether you like it or not, are factually not illegal aliens.

I would be shocked if "anchor babies" are any more than a small fraction of the cost of Medicaid or school lunches or Head Start in any state.

Plus, what hand outs are available?

There is no program that I know of that hands out free cash to ANYONE, citizen or not.

It just pisses me off to no end when people get up and say "oh, years ago, we didn't have all these hand outs."

That's right. Before Clinton reformed welfare, we actually did have something that came closer to a hand out system(unintentionally, FDR never wanted it like that).

When this lady was growing up, we were building public housing as bad as 7 Towers in Dublin every 2 minutes in America.

In 1970, we had Milton Friedman and Richard Nixon proposing to give every man woman and child $3,000.

Please, all these elderly people lived in a time when hand outs were a lot more common and acceptable than they are now.

Again, I don't support illegal immigration.

I don't have too much sympathy for those who would do illegally what many in the same circumstances(poverty, violence in Mexico) wait years to do legally.

We just have to be realistic in dealing with it, and that means recognizing that we have dropped the ball in the past- both parties- and now 11 million are here. How do we deal with that? Mass deportations are unrealistic. The best bet is to fine heavily, re coup back taxes, send them to the back of the citizenship line and get the border under control. This is what comprehensive immigration reform does.
 
I do remember that. And while those are 2005 stats I'm sure it's still true. My concern is that most of those Hispanic kindergartners can't speak English.

Are you not concerned by that?

How do you reason that 13% of Hispanics are illegal??

Hispanics have been the fastest growing demographic in this country for a while now, and the vast majority are legal. Illegals are not what analysts talk about when they refer to the Latino surge. Latinos are voting- they're legal.

Plus, stop with the fear tactics. Everyone is required to learn English in our public school systems and immigration reform would only strengthen this requirement.

Would I rather see people speaking English more regularly on the street, assimilating to our culture? Of course I would. That is something I think previous generations of immigrants did much, much better than a lot of Hispanic immigrants do now.

Would I prefer that 2 Hispanic people not talk in Spanish past me when I am right in between them(I know the language, so I can tell they are insulting me, but still)? Of course.

However, that does not mean they do not know English.

Especially if you go to school, tests, evaluations, teaching, etc is all done in English. English Second Language students may have 1 hour of the day devoted to brushing up their English skills with the help of someone who speaks their native language. Other than that, its English.

So most of the kinder kids can speak English.

I would like to emphasize what Irvine said.

You think Hispanics are winning the legal resident/incarcerated ratio??

African Americans, almost all of whom are legal, have been well ahead of them for quite some time now.

Either way, that is not very relevant to the discussion as we are talking about illegal aliens, not the percentage of legal Hispanics compared to the percentage of incarcerated population.

Illegal aliens, break all the laws you mentioned, of course and that needs to be addressed, not ignored as some here are doing.

However, as far as this suggestion that they have some inherent tendency toward violent crime because they are illegal, it holds no water.

Reminds me of the Geraldo Rivera-Bill O'Reilly exchange a few years back when Bill O was trying to blame illegal immigration for a drunk driving death. Geraldo flipped out and said "it could have been a Polish drunk, it could have been a Jewish drunk, it could have been a black drunk, it could have been an Indian drunk, it could have been an Irish drunk......"
 
an interesting post from another forum:

"And...as Neal Boortz asks, "What differentiates the old FEDERAL IMMIGRATION BILL and this new ARIZONA IMMIGRATION LAW?"

Little if any. They want to cloud the illegal part of illegal immigrant.
That is why they force the term "undocumented "immigrant or cry "racists" for trying to enforce a law that was known to exist.
They want to appeal to all immigrants legal and illegal for greater support in numbers.

What they avoid are the real motives behind enforcing immigration laws:
They make it a racial issue when in fact it is not.

Immigration is a complex issue which cuts across party lines. Those in favor of “amnesty” or a “guest worker program” include pro-corporate Republicans, elements of the Roman Catholic Church seeking new congregants to replace millions of alienated and excommunicated parishioners, a few Union leaders hoping for new dues-paying members, and liberal Democrats driven by compassion for poor illegal immigrants seeking a better life. Those opposing the “guest worker program” include a few racist Republicans and a lot of disgruntled taxpayers who don't want to subsidize social services for illegals. None of the above groups sees the critical problem with illegal immigration (or indeed with uncontrolled legal immigration). The problem is that large numbers of immigrants willing to work for peanuts depresses the wages for all working Americans, including what's left of the middle class.

President Bush and other supporters of a “guest worker program” keep talking about immigrants taking jobs that Americans won't do. That is completely false. There are no jobs Americans won't do. There are only jobs that Americans won't do for the paltry wages corporations pay illegal immigrants. If they were paid a decent wage for their efforts, American workers would pick our crops, collect our garbage, mow our lawns, flip our hamburgers, wash our dishes, and build our houses. If there were no illegal immigrants, employers would have to pay decent wages. They would have no choice. (There are jobs that can't be exported.) Yes, if American workers were paid a living wage, prices would go up. But wages would go up far more, so that more Americans could afford the fruits of their labor. The fact of the matter is that allowing large numbers of immigrants to stay in this country is a subsidy to unscrupulous businesses which employ them and exploit them.

While compassion demands that we provide health care and emergency services to illegal immigrants and their families , and temporary education for their children, we are NOT obligated to provide them with welfare, unemployment compensation, or social security. Second, we must have a secure way of determining who is in this country legally, and then severely punish employers who hire illegals. If they are unable to get jobs or welfare, the illegals will go back home. Yes, controlling the border with more fences and troops may supply part of the answer, but the real solution lies in preventing illegals from earning money in the United States . That will not only encourage many to leave, it will also prevent more from coming here in the first place. Any kind of “amnesty” or “guest worker program” will just have the opposite effect and encourage millions more to risk their lives to get into the country and “cash in.”

If we are truly compassionate, and want to better the lives of poor Mexicans, the way to do it is to help the Mexican people get an honest recount and elect a populist government to replace the oligarchs.
Lets occupy mexico and spread "Democracy,after all they even have oil.
BTW True Democracy are two wolves and a rabbit deciding on what to have for dinner.
Then we can assist that new government of Mexico to better the lives of their own people where they live. Of course, it would help if we got rid of our own oligarchs, too. (After all, they came to power with two stolen elections.) They are the ones pushing the “guest worker program,” because it means lower labor costs for their fat-cat industrialist friends, and therefore higher profits. In the end, it's all about money.
Ethics needs to be factored in as a new concept,required by law of any professional(per professional business codes) After all ,if the corporations have earned the ranks of a "person" with rights and privledges(which need to be limited) then they have a personal liability for violating ethics standard."
 
But your CNN, AP, liberal media dig was funny...

You know what's funny? That you automatically assumed that I'm against the so-called "liberal" media. Just because I'm not the biggest fan of illegal immigration does not make me a staunch conservative.

The reason why I made a "dig" at CNN, AP and Reuters is because I consider them more valid and less biased than, say World Net Daily and Michelle Malkin. That is where I found articles saying Mexico treats its illegals poorly. But I didn't take it seriously because I know those two are biased.

As for why does it matter if Mexico poorly treats its illegals, that is because Mexico is criticizing this law. But if they are the ones mistreating illegals, than who are they to criticize? And notice I said "if".
 
Look at reality.

Look at the costs for future prevention, look at the cost for deportation, and look at the cost when you have to actually pay full price for produce, construction, house keeping, etc...

So, you're OK with companies paying illegals below the minimum wage? You're OK with companies exploiting them?
 
So, you're OK with companies paying illegals below the minimum wage? You're OK with companies exploiting them?

That's not what I said, my point is that those that always argue the financial side of this issue and talk about the "drain" they bring always ignore this part of the issue and look very ignorant doing so...
 
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