Arizona bill 1070

[coolian2]

Originally Posted by AEON

I'm not against immigration - I am against uncontrolled immigration.

your position is already pretty clear. my response wasn't to that.

what's your solution to uncontrolled immigration then? is it letting cops ask any random person for proof they're there legally? that seems like...well, not trying to close the stable door after the horses have bolted, but certainly an analogy not far off it.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by coolian2

when you have a country that markets itself on the so-called american dream, that any immigrant can come to america and make a life for themselves, that life is better in america than anywhere else....illegal immigrants seem a bit like an occupational hazard.

this is very perceptive, and the most interesting thing i've read all morning.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by AEON

Is the current level of security acceptable to you? Or do you think more needs to be done? If not a wall - what would you suggest?

Why is it that I asked you a question and I haven't gotten an answer?

We have for the most part an arbitrary border, you'll always find holes, I suspect even with a wall. I'd be fine with more men and some motion detectors. But if you took away the incentive to cross over illegally then the problem is greatly reduced.

The problem is, people don't want to do that.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by coolian2

when you have a country that markets itself on the so-called american dream, that any immigrant can come to america and make a life for themselves, that life is better in america than anywhere else....illegal immigrants seem a bit like an occupational hazard.

According to this logic – and Irvine’s enthusiastic approval – why have border enforcement at all? Why have any immigration process? Why not allow ships and airplanes from all over the world start unloading the millions upon millions of people that want a part of the American dream? If we dare claim we have a great country and the American dream is something worth attaining, then who are we to deny anyone in the world a chance at attaining it? It simply isn’t fair that to the rest of the world (like those starving in Africa) that Mexico is so close.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by BVS

But if you took away the incentive to cross over illegally then the problem is greatly reduced.

I think you'll find plenty of agreement on this point.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AEON

According to this logic – and Irvine’s enthusiastic approval – why have border enforcement at all? Why have any immigration process? Why not allow ships and airplanes from all over the world start unloading the millions upon millions of people that want a part of the American dream? If we dare claim we have a great country and the American dream is something worth attaining, then who are we to deny anyone in the world a chance at attaining it? It simply isn’t fair that to the rest of the world (like those starving in Africa) that Mexico is so close.

because that would be untenable, and you're taking an untenable position here for the sake of argument, one that no one is advocating.

we make it so that people want to come here. in fact, the history of the United States is marked not even so much by domestic, home-grown greatness, but by what's been achieved by people who have come here -- just off the top of my head, Einstein being a great example.

so, what i think was being expressed is that we've set ourselves up for this sort of problem, so let's have a border, let's enforce our laws, but let's also recognize how invaluable the contributions of immigrants are, the fact that they work very, very hard for little pay, that they commit crimes at a far lower rate than native-born Americans, that their energy revitalizes our neighborhoods, that they are absolutely a fundamental part of life today no matter how they got here, and let's help them become citizens.

if these were Irish immigrants we were talking about, there'd be no such bill in front of us. this is absolutely a "talk American" example of blatant racism culture clash.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by AEON

I think you'll find plenty of agreement on this point.

But there isn't...

You'd rather build a wall than to make citizenship more streamline and affordable. You'd rather arm more men than to grant work visas.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

because that would be untenable, and you're taking an untenable position here for the sake of argument, one that no one is advocating.

I am simply following the logical flow of the argument that asserts America is great, America admits that it is great, therefore America should not prevent anyone from partaking in its greatness. You reinforced this position by claiming:

we've set ourselves up for this sort of problem

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AEON

I am simply following the logical flow of the argument that asserts America is great, America admits that it is great, therefore America should not prevent anyone from partaking in its greatness. You reinforced this position by claiming:

right, you're taking a point to it's furthest possible conclusion, which has no basis in reality.

[Irvine511]

let's hope her "papers" are in that backpack ...

[deep]

Originally Posted by coolian2

am i the only one who can see my posts?

do you really want an answer to this question?

[deep]

Phoenix Mayor: City May Sue AZ Over Immigration Law
Ben Frumin | April 26, 2010, 11:39AM

The city of Phoenix is considering suing Arizona over a controversial new immigration law signed into law on Friday.

The legislation requires law enforcement to demand immigration papers from anyone who they have a "reasonable suspicion" is in the country illegally.

Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon told the Arizona Republic that the City Council will consider an item tomorrow that would direct their city attorney "to prepare a lawsuit asking for an injunction on this law and challenging it on constitutional grounds." He also called the new law "unconstitutional" and "unenforceable."

On Fox News this morning, Gordon said the new law "doesn't make the state any safer." If anything, Gordon said, "it actually makes it less safe."

That's because police officers may be caught up in enforcing the new law, Gordon said, and, fearing lawsuits over failing to enforce the law or in unfairly enforcing it since there's no functional definition of "reasonable suspicion," may have less time to focus on violent crime and the drug trade.

Gordon also worried that the new law will create "a division within the state that could lead to violence."

Swastikas smeared in beans found on Capitol grounds | Arizona News


Arizona, you got the weight on your shoulders
That’s breaking your back.

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by AEON

I am simply following the logical flow of the argument that asserts America is great, America admits that it is great, therefore America should not prevent anyone from partaking in its greatness. You reinforced this position by claiming:

The logic isn't meant to go there, the logic is meant to illustrate a problem here and to make you think about the issue more.

[coolian2]

Originally Posted by AEON

According to this logic – and Irvine’s enthusiastic approval – why have border enforcement at all? Why have any immigration process? Why not allow ships and airplanes from all over the world start unloading the millions upon millions of people that want a part of the American dream? If we dare claim we have a great country and the American dream is something worth attaining, then who are we to deny anyone in the world a chance at attaining it? It simply isn’t fair that to the rest of the world (like those starving in Africa) that Mexico is so close.

the logic you've drawn from what irvine and i said doesn't go anywhere near that.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by coolian2

the logic you've drawn from what irvine and i said doesn't go anywhere near that.

It's possible that I'm not understandling your conclusion clearly:

Originally Posted by coolian2

...when you have a country that markets itself on the so-called american dream, that any immigrant can come to america and make a life for themselves, that life is better in america than anywhere else....illegal immigrants seem a bit like an occupational hazard

[AEON]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

The logic isn't meant to go there, the logic is meant to illustrate a problem here and to make you think about the issue more.

I must politely disagree with you on the role of logic.

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by AEON

I must politely disagree with you on the role of logic.

But all you're serving to do is bastardize the real point that's trying to be made here.

[coolian2]

Originally Posted by AEON

It's possible that I'm not understandling your conclusion clearly:

no, you're definitely not. i said occupational hazard, i didn't say throw the borders open.

let's say that for a mailman an occupational hazard is being bitten by dogs. by far and away, not desired and very rare, but then you've come along and said that my conclusion is we should set dogs on every mailman every day.

if we have to infer a conclusion out of what i said, it's this. illegal immigrants aren't really desired. because the message always, always being exported is how great america is, you've got to expect people who actually don't know better to want to move there, legally or not. there is no way to stop all illegal immigrants, especially when you have such vast land borders and unsecured ports (hell, even airports - someone could show up under the visa waiver program and vanish into everyday life). take reasonable steps to secure the border, make the legal immigration process more streamlined.

and even then, that's still not the point i was trying to make with the statement.

[deep]

Originally Posted by AEON

It's possible that I'm not understandling your conclusion clearly:

It's all those

USA !
USA !
We're number 1
We're number 1

chants at international events, coming home to roost.

[coolian2]

Originally Posted by deep

It's all those

USA !
USA !
We're number 1
We're number 1

chants at international events, coming home to roost.

woah


what international sporting events do the usa compete at?