Arizona bill 1070

[deep]

am i the only one who can see my posts?

do you really want an answer to this question?

 

[deep]

Phoenix Mayor: City May Sue AZ Over Immigration Law
Ben Frumin | April 26, 2010, 11:39AM

The city of Phoenix is considering suing Arizona over a controversial new immigration law signed into law on Friday.

The legislation requires law enforcement to demand immigration papers from anyone who they have a "reasonable suspicion" is in the country illegally.

Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon told the Arizona Republic that the City Council will consider an item tomorrow that would direct their city attorney "to prepare a lawsuit asking for an injunction on this law and challenging it on constitutional grounds." He also called the new law "unconstitutional" and "unenforceable."

On Fox News this morning, Gordon said the new law "doesn't make the state any safer." If anything, Gordon said, "it actually makes it less safe."

That's because police officers may be caught up in enforcing the new law, Gordon said, and, fearing lawsuits over failing to enforce the law or in unfairly enforcing it since there's no functional definition of "reasonable suspicion," may have less time to focus on violent crime and the drug trade.

Gordon also worried that the new law will create "a division within the state that could lead to violence."

Swastikas smeared in beans found on Capitol grounds | Arizona News


Arizona, you got the weight on your shoulders
That’s breaking your back.

 

[PhilsFan]

I am simply following the logical flow of the argument that asserts America is great, America admits that it is great, therefore America should not prevent anyone from partaking in its greatness. You reinforced this position by claiming:

The logic isn't meant to go there, the logic is meant to illustrate a problem here and to make you think about the issue more.

 

[coolian2]

According to this logic – and Irvine’s enthusiastic approval – why have border enforcement at all? Why have any immigration process? Why not allow ships and airplanes from all over the world start unloading the millions upon millions of people that want a part of the American dream? If we dare claim we have a great country and the American dream is something worth attaining, then who are we to deny anyone in the world a chance at attaining it? It simply isn’t fair that to the rest of the world (like those starving in Africa) that Mexico is so close.

the logic you've drawn from what irvine and i said doesn't go anywhere near that.

 

[AEON]

the logic you've drawn from what irvine and i said doesn't go anywhere near that.

It's possible that I'm not understandling your conclusion clearly:

...when you have a country that markets itself on the so-called american dream, that any immigrant can come to america and make a life for themselves, that life is better in america than anywhere else....illegal immigrants seem a bit like an occupational hazard

 

[AEON]

The logic isn't meant to go there, the logic is meant to illustrate a problem here and to make you think about the issue more.

I must politely disagree with you on the role of logic.

 

[PhilsFan]

I must politely disagree with you on the role of logic.

But all you're serving to do is bastardize the real point that's trying to be made here.

 

[coolian2]

It's possible that I'm not understandling your conclusion clearly:

no, you're definitely not. i said occupational hazard, i didn't say throw the borders open.

let's say that for a mailman an occupational hazard is being bitten by dogs. by far and away, not desired and very rare, but then you've come along and said that my conclusion is we should set dogs on every mailman every day.

if we have to infer a conclusion out of what i said, it's this. illegal immigrants aren't really desired. because the message always, always being exported is how great america is, you've got to expect people who actually don't know better to want to move there, legally or not. there is no way to stop all illegal immigrants, especially when you have such vast land borders and unsecured ports (hell, even airports - someone could show up under the visa waiver program and vanish into everyday life). take reasonable steps to secure the border, make the legal immigration process more streamlined.

and even then, that's still not the point i was trying to make with the statement.

 

[deep]

It's possible that I'm not understandling your conclusion clearly:

It's all those

USA !
USA !
We're number 1
We're number 1

chants at international events, coming home to roost.

 

[coolian2]

It's all those

USA !
USA !
We're number 1
We're number 1

chants at international events, coming home to roost.

woah


what international sporting events do the usa compete at?

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

you didnt, i was just being a smartass

cool. you know, it actually seems like we're in agreement here.

 

[corianderstem]

what international sporting events do the usa compete at?

The Olympics?


that's all i've got.

 

[AEON]

According to current law, isn't the federal government obligated to deport illegal aliens and punish businesses that knowingly hire them?

 

[BVS]

"All the problems we face in the United States today can be traced to an unenlightened immigration policy on the part of the American Indian."

- Pat Paulsen

 

[BVS]

and punish businesses that knowingly hire them?

I don't know the specifics on this to be honest.

I asked a friend of mine who is in law enforcement here in TX and I asked him about this subject once.

He said, no one wants to touch the subject because it's a butterfly effect. The cops don't care if they aren't doing harm because they know they've used them for labor on their ranch or in their yards at one point. Politicians don't want to do anything because they know local prices would start climbing if a mass exodus was made, or they know that some company they invest in uses illegal labor at some point. It's a dirty not so secret that here in TX a large percentage of farming uses undocumented labor, lots of smaller hotels, cooks and bus boys, a big portion of construction, and even road construction.

There's a local Republican politician that I know for a fact uses undocumented labor(or at least used to as of 5 years ago), it's one of the reasons he remains so quiet on the subject.

The dirty secret is that very few really want to do anything about it, they know there's very little pay off. But it's a great talking point, it solidifies your xenophobic base.

Reagan understood this...

 

[AEON]

There's a lot of English that don't celebrate 1066 - but what does that have to do with the current issue?Unless you are advocating the United States should allow invasion.

 

[BVS]

How is finding a certain quote entertaining "advocating" anything?

I just thought is gives a little perspective, apparently some don't like perspective.

 

[Irvine511]

the logic you've drawn from what irvine and i said doesn't go anywhere near that.

maybe if you'd post in ENGLISH instead of SPANISH.

 

[BVS]

Not English, American, speak American pal...

Sheesh

 

[coolian2]

maybe if you'd post in ENGLISH instead of SPANISH.

the problem is i'm speaking english. the number of pricks who thought i was english was downright insulting. i'd have been less upset if people thought i was australian.

 

[AEON]

I don't know the specifics on this to be honest.

I asked a friend of mine who is in law enforcement here in TX and I asked him about this subject once.

He said, no one wants to touch the subject because it's a butterfly effect. The cops don't care if they aren't doing harm because they know they've used them for labor on their ranch or in their yards at one point. Politicians don't want to do anything because they know local prices would start climbing if a mass exodus was made, or they know that some company they invest in uses illegal labor at some point. It's a dirty not so secret that here in TX a large percentage of farming uses undocumented labor, lots of smaller hotels, cooks and bus boys, a big portion of construction, and even road construction.

There's a local Republican politician that I know for a fact uses undocumented labor(or at least used to as of 5 years ago), it's one of the reasons he remains so quiet on the subject.

The dirty secret is that very few really want to do anything about it, they know there's very little pay off. But it's a great talking point, it solidifies your xenophobic base.

Reagan understood this...

This is a wonderful response BVS. I think it captures both the problem and trouble with finding a reasonable solution.

I personally think that closing the border in the most humane way possible is a first step. I think most of the US population wants to have a sense there is at least some control. In addition to that, I also favor seasonal work permits and allow this to be as hassle free as possible. I think more people would return home in the off-season if they didn’t have to worry about coming back. The only thing I would include is fingerprinting upon issuance of this permit and a file opened in a database. Being able to link a crime to a fingerprint is a critical step in the right direction for reasonable law enforcement.

Additionally, I would at least legalize marijuana, if not all drugs. It’s obvious at this point that things are worse than the prohibition era. Mexico is a big supplier of pot and a big portion of the violence we’re seeing on the border is because of this. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating the use of marijuana, but someone’s choice to use it. Regarding “harder” drugs – there simply has to be a better way of dealing with this issue. In my opinion, people using hard drugs are already punishing themselves. Perhaps take the billions we spend on enforcing drug laws and jailing offenders and spend it on educating and treatment. We have to convince people there’s a difference between legality and endorsement. In the end, this is the responsibility of parents and of course, each individual adult.

 

[BVS]

This is a wonderful response BVS. I think it captures both the problem and trouble with finding a reasonable solution.

I personally think that closing the border in the most humane way possible is a first step. I think most of the US population wants to have a sense there is at least some control. In addition to that, I also favor seasonal work permits and allow this to be as hassle free as possible. I think more people would return home in the off-season if they didn’t have to worry about coming back. The only thing I would include is fingerprinting upon issuance of this permit and a file opened in a database. Being able to link a crime to a fingerprint is a critical step in the right direction for reasonable law enforcement.

Additionally, I would at least legalize marijuana, if not all drugs. It’s obvious at this point that things are worse than the prohibition era. Mexico is a big supplier of pot and a big portion of the violence we’re seeing on the border is because of this. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating the use of marijuana, but someone’s choice to use it. Regarding “harder” drugs – there simply has to be a better way of dealing with this issue. In my opinion, people using hard drugs are already punishing themselves. Perhaps take the billions we spend on enforcing drug laws and jailing offenders and spend it on educating and treatment. We have to convince people there’s a difference between legality and endorsement. In the end, this is the responsibility of parents and of course, each individual adult.

A lot of this makes sense. I'm still uneasy about "closing the border", I assume you mean to build a big wall? That doesn't sit well with me, but everything else makes sense.

 

[AEON]

A lot of this makes sense. I'm still uneasy about "closing the border", I assume you mean to build a big wall? That doesn't sit well with me, but everything else makes sense.

I'm more in favor of a technology/electronic wall with rapid response teams of Border Patrol (alarm goes off, team responds at exact location).

Again, with the permit program and changes in drug laws - these should reduce the illegal crossing problem. If the responsible Mexicans came through the normal "gates" with their seasonal ID, then the ones coming across other areas are more than likely trouble makers of some sort.

 

[BVS]

Ok, that I can actually agree with...

 

[PhilsFan]

Which, again, is still completely different than dealing with illegal immigrants (and legal immigrants) that are here already, which is all this bill does.

 

[coolian2]

well fuck me dead, we've got a solution almost all who are actively debating thread can agree on.

i'll go look for some locusts and horsemen.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

OTTUMWA, Iowa (AP)— President Barack Obama on Tuesday warned of harassment against Hispanics under Arizona's tough new immigration law, saying such "poorly conceived" measures can be halted if the federal government fixes the nation's broken immigration system for good.

Obama pledged to bring his own party along, pleading with Republicans to join in as the only realistic hope to solve a politically volatile problem.

On a day dominated by his economic message, Obama offered a fresh, stern criticism of a new Arizona law that allows police to question anyone about their immigration status if they have reason to suspect they are in the country illegally. He said it targets people who look like they might be illegal immigrants.

"Now suddenly if you don't have your papers, and you took your kid out to get ice cream, you're going to get harassed – that's something that could potentially happen," Obama said of the Arizona measure. "That's not the right way to go."

Obama's comments came on the same day that Attorney General Eric Holder and Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano were critical of Arizona's new law, and Holder said the federal government may challenge it. The president sought to step up Washington's will to get an immigration deal done.

"I will bring the majority of Democrats to the table in getting this done," Obama said in response to a question at a town hall in south-central Iowa. "But I've got to have some help from the other side."

Obama said he hoped to get a deal done "sometime soon" – a politically vague timetable in an election year with a shrinking window for legislative action.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

some dip shit wants to boycott arizona iced teas because of this new law.

arizona iced tea company is based out of new york.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

 

[martha]

OTTUMWA, Iowa (AP)— President Barack Obama on Tuesday warned of harassment against Hispanics under Arizona's tough new immigration law, saying such "poorly conceived" measures can be halted if the federal government fixes the nation's broken immigration system for good.

"Now suddenly if you don't have your papers, and you took your kid out to get ice cream, you're going to get harassed – that's something that could potentially happen," Obama said of the Arizona measure. "That's not the right way to go."

I saw this in the paper this morning. It reminded me of South Africa during apartheid. And I remember that plenty of American conservatives were just fine with that back then.