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Old 05-16-2010, 06:23 PM   #381
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when i was a swim coach, i had some kids who were talented but didn't care, and some kids who weren't talented but did care.

give me the kids who want to be there.

and give me a multicultural, hardworking, upbeat society in the immediate suburbs of almost any city in the US filled with immigrants from (and this is just Arlington/Fairfax outside of DC) El Salvador, Korea, Vietnam, and Ethiopia rather than the snowblindness of the exurbs. or, where i work, i can walk out into the main shopping plaza area and in what was once a Jewish-then-black-now-immigrant suburb is a teeming hub of pretty much everyone, where there is no majority.

while i fully agree that "developing" nations is a bit of a patronizing word, and i do agree that a judgment is implied at least when it comes to culture -- though we've had people in this thread boldly assert the superiority of American culture to all others and especially to Mexican culture -- i don't think it's at all patronizing to say that there is greater economic opportunity in Los Angeles than there is in Tijuana, or in El Paso than in Juarez.

that seems like pretty basic fact, no value judgment implied.
I think the US in general does a much better job of integrating immigrants than Europe.
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:38 PM   #382
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I think the US in general does a much better job of integrating immigrants than Europe.


it is our history, certainly the Irish are, perhaps, the greatest immigrant success story for the US. what drives me bonkers are notions of "real" americans, and nativism -- which is a natural byproduct of a country defined by immigration -- because, to me, that is anti-American. it's never perfect, always messy, but it's vital to national identity.

European immigration is quite fascinating, because across the pond you have a greater, more organic sense of what it means to be French, British, Italian, etc. watching these nations of blood-and-soil adapt to 21st century global realities is fascinating, but would you agree that immigration has made cities like London and Paris more vital, more innovative, more energetic? what sometimes shocks Americans when they go to London is how amazingly diverse it is -- we're all expecting Beefeaters and Hugh Grant. isn't this the source of London's cultural strength? that, at least in London, immigrants do well? they bring their music, their food, their communities and make the city that much more interesting and inspiring?
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:45 PM   #383
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it is our history, certainly the Irish are, perhaps, the greatest immigrant success story for the US. what drives me bonkers are notions of "real" americans, and nativism -- which is a natural byproduct of a country defined by immigration -- because, to me, that is anti-American. it's never perfect, always messy, but it's vital to national identity.

European immigration is quite fascinating, because across the pond you have a greater, more organic sense of what it means to be French, British, Italian, etc. watching these nations of blood-and-soil adapt to 21st century global realities is fascinating, but would you agree that immigration has made cities like London and Paris more vital, more innovative, more energetic? what sometimes shocks Americans when they go to London is how amazingly diverse it is -- we're all expecting Beefeaters and Hugh Grant. isn't this the source of London's cultural strength? that, at least in London, immigrants do well? they bring their music, their food, their communities and make the city that much more interesting and inspiring?
Actually I was going add to my post that London is one of the few success stories regarding immigration in Europe. However I feel that it is not typical of the rest Europe, or for that matter the rest of the UK.
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:59 PM   #384
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Actually I was going add to my post that London is one of the few success stories regarding immigration in Europe. However I feel that it is not typical of the rest Europe, or for that matter the rest of the UK.


tell me more about European/UK immigration? and Irish immigration? what are the successes, the failures?
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Old 05-16-2010, 07:11 PM   #385
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tell me more about European/UK immigration? and Irish immigration? what are the successes, the failures?
I am probably the wrong person to ask as, being a R.W. bigot (joke) I am not a fan of large scale immigration for ideological reasons.

I don't think the experience in Ireland is that bad overall. I think there are countries in Europe that have managed immigration worse, and a few, but not many, that have managed it better.

I will admit to enjoying the energy and mix of cultures of London every time I visit (I remember walking into a Irish bar one time and at one table there was a bunch of lads in Gaelic football jerseys, at the next an Orthodox Jew in full regalia sat nursing his pint) - not sure if I'd want to live there though.

The failures? Frankly, France, Austria and Denmark, strike me as examples not to follow, for different reasons.
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Old 05-16-2010, 07:39 PM   #386
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Sorry to intrude, but I have a question:

In the OP, Irvine's quoted text said that suspicious people will have to provide a proof of citizenship, and it had a brief list of documents to include a driver's license.

I thought that a driver's license wasn't necessarily proof of citizenship? Does this bill then equate a driver's license with a passport? Aren't there immigrants who have driver's licenses?

I'm kinda dumb, and haven't read much outside of medical texts as of late. So go easy on me.
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Old 05-16-2010, 07:44 PM   #387
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The failures? Frankly, France, Austria and Denmark, strike me as examples not to follow, for different reasons.
I lived in one of those as a child before my parents realized that our opportunities would always be limited and off we went to Canada. Which, in my mind (and I have lived/worked in the US) is the best place on earth for immigrants of all shapes and colours. Particularly southern Ontario.
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:00 PM   #388
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Sorry to intrude, but I have a question:

In the OP, Irvine's quoted text said that suspicious people will have to provide a proof of citizenship, and it had a brief list of documents to include a driver's license.

I thought that a driver's license wasn't necessarily proof of citizenship? Does this bill then equate a driver's license with a passport? Aren't there immigrants who have driver's licenses?

I'm kinda dumb, and haven't read much outside of medical texts as of late. So go easy on me.
The law says that licenses from states that require "proof of legal residency" for driver's licenses are acceptable. As far as I could tell, that's all but five states. Washington isn't one of those, so, in theory, if you were pulled over and the cop wanted to fuck with you and asked for legal papers for your citizenship status, and all you had was a Washington state DL, you'd get hauled into the pokey until you could cough up a birth certificate.
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:21 AM   #389
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What's interesting to me is that here is a lot of research that indicates that there is no link between economic prosperity and happiness.
You might want to consider that current research shows very tight links between economic prosperity and diversity in "open" societies.
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Old 05-17-2010, 08:39 PM   #390
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I politically incorrect beauty queens.
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Old 05-17-2010, 09:48 PM   #391
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Beauty Queens, the new conservative beacon of information.

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Old 05-17-2010, 09:49 PM   #392
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But don't feel bad INDY, she probably couldn't answer my question either...
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Old 05-18-2010, 01:15 PM   #393
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Those Muslims are taking over our beauty pageants too. I think it's far more likely that Trump wanted a brunette this time-the judges are just figureheads for what he wants.


Affirmative Action in Beauty Contests? :: Daniel Pipes

"They are all attractive, but this surprising frequency of Muslims winning beauty pageants makes me suspect an odd form of affirmative action."
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Old 05-18-2010, 01:32 PM   #394
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Mr. Pipes, I declare you Tool of the Week.
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Old 05-18-2010, 01:33 PM   #395
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He's a bit of a wackjob to begin with...
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Old 05-18-2010, 02:07 PM   #396
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funny how blatant racism and the right wing go hand-in-hand ...
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Old 05-18-2010, 02:36 PM   #397
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funny how blatant racism and the right wing go hand-in-hand ...

always the broad brush?

did you look at his website?

his main and almost only focus is pro-Israel and anti- Muslim- Arab -Palestinian


many on this board are in the more pro Israel and less pro Palestinian camp, too.
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Old 05-18-2010, 02:43 PM   #398
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always the broad brush?

did you look at his website?

his main and almost only focus is pro-Israel and anti- Muslim- Arab -Palestinian


many on this board are in the more pro Israel and less pro Palestinian camp, too.


do you think this is a defense of his statement? because it isn't.
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Old 05-18-2010, 04:32 PM   #399
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FOXNews.com - Napolitano Admits She Hasn't Read Arizona Immigration Law in 'Detail'

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Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano admitted Monday that she has not read the controversial Arizona immigration law even though she's gone on television to criticize it, and continued to assert that it was "bad law enforcement law."

The admission comes after Attorney General Eric Holder, who earlier warned the law could create a "slippery slope" toward racial profiling, told a House committee last week that he had not read the bill either. On Tuesday, State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said he too had not read the bill, even as he defended diplomatic official Michael Posner for comparing the law to Chinese human rights violations.
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Old 05-18-2010, 04:49 PM   #400
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Oh, politicians. That's not helpful.
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