Arizona bill 1070

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Somehow I can't imagine you ever expressing the same sentiment substituting "a member of the Tea Party" for "illegal immigrant." I really can't.

i guess you're right. illegal immigrants come here to work hard and better themselves, Tea Partiers want more money and are scared of black people.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Or except for the empirical evidence thing:
The Pew Hispanic Center study from February 2009 found that even though Hispanics make up 13 percent of the adult population, they accounted for 40 percent of sentenced federal offenders in 2007.

i see -- all Hispanics are illegal? all Hispanics are immigrants?

would you like to make the comparisons with all those legal african-americans?

you're not doing a good job with the whole we're-really-not-racists thing.

the fact remains that cities with high immigrant populations have lower crime and are generally better places to live.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by INDY500

My concern is that most of those Hispanic kindergartners can't speak English.

Are you not concerned by that?

Not at all.

It's very common among immigrant children of all backgrounds not to speak English when they enter kindergarten. Almost everyone I know (people in their late 20s/30s) who was born to Chinese, Polish, Indian, Ukrainian, Pakistani, Filipino, etc parents did not speak English when they started kindergarten. They were all fluent by grade 1.

If you read up some stuff on ESL and language retention rates at different ages, you'll realize quickly that this isn't a problem at all.

For the record, and anyone wondering, English is my third language.

[BEAL]

Can we see your papers?

[U2387]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Two words. Anchor baby.

Look at the numbers. Look at the instant benefits. And look at the costs to states.

Three words. Read my post.

I said illegal aliens can't get benefits.

Anchor babies, whether you like it or not, are factually not illegal aliens.

I would be shocked if "anchor babies" are any more than a small fraction of the cost of Medicaid or school lunches or Head Start in any state.

Plus, what hand outs are available?

There is no program that I know of that hands out free cash to ANYONE, citizen or not.

It just pisses me off to no end when people get up and say "oh, years ago, we didn't have all these hand outs."

That's right. Before Clinton reformed welfare, we actually did have something that came closer to a hand out system(unintentionally, FDR never wanted it like that).

When this lady was growing up, we were building public housing as bad as 7 Towers in Dublin every 2 minutes in America.

In 1970, we had Milton Friedman and Richard Nixon proposing to give every man woman and child $3,000.

Please, all these elderly people lived in a time when hand outs were a lot more common and acceptable than they are now.

Again, I don't support illegal immigration.

I don't have too much sympathy for those who would do illegally what many in the same circumstances(poverty, violence in Mexico) wait years to do legally.

We just have to be realistic in dealing with it, and that means recognizing that we have dropped the ball in the past- both parties- and now 11 million are here. How do we deal with that? Mass deportations are unrealistic. The best bet is to fine heavily, re coup back taxes, send them to the back of the citizenship line and get the border under control. This is what comprehensive immigration reform does.

[U2387]

Originally Posted by INDY500

I do remember that. And while those are 2005 stats I'm sure it's still true. My concern is that most of those Hispanic kindergartners can't speak English.

Are you not concerned by that?

How do you reason that 13% of Hispanics are illegal??

Hispanics have been the fastest growing demographic in this country for a while now, and the vast majority are legal. Illegals are not what analysts talk about when they refer to the Latino surge. Latinos are voting- they're legal.

Plus, stop with the fear tactics. Everyone is required to learn English in our public school systems and immigration reform would only strengthen this requirement.

Would I rather see people speaking English more regularly on the street, assimilating to our culture? Of course I would. That is something I think previous generations of immigrants did much, much better than a lot of Hispanic immigrants do now.

Would I prefer that 2 Hispanic people not talk in Spanish past me when I am right in between them(I know the language, so I can tell they are insulting me, but still)? Of course.

However, that does not mean they do not know English.

Especially if you go to school, tests, evaluations, teaching, etc is all done in English. English Second Language students may have 1 hour of the day devoted to brushing up their English skills with the help of someone who speaks their native language. Other than that, its English.

So most of the kinder kids can speak English.

I would like to emphasize what Irvine said.

You think Hispanics are winning the legal resident/incarcerated ratio??

African Americans, almost all of whom are legal, have been well ahead of them for quite some time now.

Either way, that is not very relevant to the discussion as we are talking about illegal aliens, not the percentage of legal Hispanics compared to the percentage of incarcerated population.

Illegal aliens, break all the laws you mentioned, of course and that needs to be addressed, not ignored as some here are doing.

However, as far as this suggestion that they have some inherent tendency toward violent crime because they are illegal, it holds no water.

Reminds me of the Geraldo Rivera-Bill O'Reilly exchange a few years back when Bill O was trying to blame illegal immigration for a drunk driving death. Geraldo flipped out and said "it could have been a Polish drunk, it could have been a Jewish drunk, it could have been a black drunk, it could have been an Indian drunk, it could have been an Irish drunk......"

[bigjohn2441]

an interesting post from another forum:

"And...as Neal Boortz asks, "What differentiates the old FEDERAL IMMIGRATION BILL and this new ARIZONA IMMIGRATION LAW?"

Little if any. They want to cloud the illegal part of illegal immigrant.
That is why they force the term "undocumented "immigrant or cry "racists" for trying to enforce a law that was known to exist.
They want to appeal to all immigrants legal and illegal for greater support in numbers.

What they avoid are the real motives behind enforcing immigration laws:
They make it a racial issue when in fact it is not.

Immigration is a complex issue which cuts across party lines. Those in favor of “amnesty” or a “guest worker program” include pro-corporate Republicans, elements of the Roman Catholic Church seeking new congregants to replace millions of alienated and excommunicated parishioners, a few Union leaders hoping for new dues-paying members, and liberal Democrats driven by compassion for poor illegal immigrants seeking a better life. Those opposing the “guest worker program” include a few racist Republicans and a lot of disgruntled taxpayers who don't want to subsidize social services for illegals. None of the above groups sees the critical problem with illegal immigration (or indeed with uncontrolled legal immigration). The problem is that large numbers of immigrants willing to work for peanuts depresses the wages for all working Americans, including what's left of the middle class.

President Bush and other supporters of a “guest worker program” keep talking about immigrants taking jobs that Americans won't do. That is completely false. There are no jobs Americans won't do. There are only jobs that Americans won't do for the paltry wages corporations pay illegal immigrants. If they were paid a decent wage for their efforts, American workers would pick our crops, collect our garbage, mow our lawns, flip our hamburgers, wash our dishes, and build our houses. If there were no illegal immigrants, employers would have to pay decent wages. They would have no choice. (There are jobs that can't be exported.) Yes, if American workers were paid a living wage, prices would go up. But wages would go up far more, so that more Americans could afford the fruits of their labor. The fact of the matter is that allowing large numbers of immigrants to stay in this country is a subsidy to unscrupulous businesses which employ them and exploit them.

While compassion demands that we provide health care and emergency services to illegal immigrants and their families , and temporary education for their children, we are NOT obligated to provide them with welfare, unemployment compensation, or social security. Second, we must have a secure way of determining who is in this country legally, and then severely punish employers who hire illegals. If they are unable to get jobs or welfare, the illegals will go back home. Yes, controlling the border with more fences and troops may supply part of the answer, but the real solution lies in preventing illegals from earning money in the United States . That will not only encourage many to leave, it will also prevent more from coming here in the first place. Any kind of “amnesty” or “guest worker program” will just have the opposite effect and encourage millions more to risk their lives to get into the country and “cash in.”

If we are truly compassionate, and want to better the lives of poor Mexicans, the way to do it is to help the Mexican people get an honest recount and elect a populist government to replace the oligarchs.
Lets occupy mexico and spread "Democracy,after all they even have oil.
BTW True Democracy are two wolves and a rabbit deciding on what to have for dinner.
Then we can assist that new government of Mexico to better the lives of their own people where they live. Of course, it would help if we got rid of our own oligarchs, too. (After all, they came to power with two stolen elections.) They are the ones pushing the “guest worker program,” because it means lower labor costs for their fat-cat industrialist friends, and therefore higher profits. In the end, it's all about money.
Ethics needs to be factored in as a new concept,required by law of any professional(per professional business codes) After all ,if the corporations have earned the ranks of a "person" with rights and privledges(which need to be limited) then they have a personal liability for violating ethics standard."

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by BVS

But your CNN, AP, liberal media dig was funny...

You know what's funny? That you automatically assumed that I'm against the so-called "liberal" media. Just because I'm not the biggest fan of illegal immigration does not make me a staunch conservative.

The reason why I made a "dig" at CNN, AP and Reuters is because I consider them more valid and less biased than, say World Net Daily and Michelle Malkin. That is where I found articles saying Mexico treats its illegals poorly. But I didn't take it seriously because I know those two are biased.

As for why does it matter if Mexico poorly treats its illegals, that is because Mexico is criticizing this law. But if they are the ones mistreating illegals, than who are they to criticize? And notice I said "if".

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by BVS

Look at reality.

Look at the costs for future prevention, look at the cost for deportation, and look at the cost when you have to actually pay full price for produce, construction, house keeping, etc...

So, you're OK with companies paying illegals below the minimum wage? You're OK with companies exploiting them?

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Pearl

So, you're OK with companies paying illegals below the minimum wage? You're OK with companies exploiting them?

That's not what I said, my point is that those that always argue the financial side of this issue and talk about the "drain" they bring always ignore this part of the issue and look very ignorant doing so...

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by U2387

Three words. Read my post.

I said illegal aliens can't get benefits.

Anchor babies, whether you like it or not, are factually not illegal aliens.

How Clintonesque of you. And in that vein Medicaid is a state, not federal, entitlement right?

[U2387]

Originally Posted by INDY500

How Clintonesque of you. And in that vein Medicaid is a state, not federal, entitlement right?

Please explain the Clinton analogy!

Not that I'd mind being accused of emulating a fiscal conservative, budget balancing, welfare reforming, debt reducing and opportunity promoting Democrat........

If you are trying to say I am "slick" as in "it depends on what the meaning of is is." then I am not following you.

I am not being evasive or getting you on a technicality.

Anchor babies are factually not illegal immigrants.

They are citizens. They were born here. If you do not like it, then talk to Evan Bayh or Dick Lugar or Brad Ellsworth or Mitch Daniels. See if they will introduce a bill to change the long standing citizenship criteria to match yours. Its worth a try.

But don't say that a straightforward, factual statement is somehow me being slick Willie.

What point are you trying to make with Medicaid?

It is of course, as you know, a joint federal/state program.

Just as illegals can not get federal benefits, I know of no state that will give them benefits. Especially since it would be 100% out of their own pockets with no help from the feds....

If they are drawing benefits, they are doing so fraudulently and illegally, which means that no Democrat or Republican is advocating it as a policy.

So it shouldn't be part of a political disagreement or used to say "Obama is giving them hand outs."

[U2387]

Originally Posted by Pearl

You know what's funny? That you automatically assumed that I'm against the so-called "liberal" media. Just because I'm not the biggest fan of illegal immigration does not make me a staunch conservative.

But you're in FYM, Pearl!!

Most liberals here(not me, though I am a proud Democrat) insist on 100% ideological purity. If not that, then you are a staunch conservative, even though they've never met you!

I have got roughed up pretty good by my fellow liberals for daring to support charter schools and question teachers' unions, for saying that the health care bill passed was better than single payer, the list goes on!

[Bluer White]

Originally Posted by Pearl

So, you're OK with companies paying illegals below the minimum wage? You're OK with companies exploiting them?

Start a vegetable garden and find a nice tent, Pearl.

Because enforcing our laws will put groceries and houses out of your price range.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Bluer White

Because enforcing our laws will put groceries and houses out of your price range.

No, but apparently it will end murder and Arizona's problem of having too many Latinos... Right?

[Irvine511]

i'm still giggling to myself about coolian's point -- the people who insist that America is better than everyone else at everything everyone else has ever done at any time in the history of the entire world, that we're an exceptional place, the city shining on the hill, the promised land, the crowning accomplishment of human history (even when such things are patently untrue!) are the most disturbed when poor people living in not-America try to come here by any means necessary from poor countries where their relatives are being murdered by people who sell drugs to Americans. and not to mention according the government authoritarian powers over search and seizure (not tom ention torture and foreign imperialism), but turning around and screaming about, god forbid, taxes and governments actually doing things like helping poor people -- the "loser's mortgages," remember that from last year? tell me, just what is government tyranny anyway? and, ironically, who benefits most from THE GOVERNMENT??? those same white senior citizens suckling at the teat of MEDICAID AND SOCIAL SECURITY!!!!! my god, the real leaches are OLD PEOPLE, not young immigrants sleeping 6 to a room and eager to send their children to fucking kindergarten who are thankful to spend the day cleaning your house for $100. it makes dramatically more sense to try to improve the living standards of native-born Americans by improving public services via taxes than it does to try to improve the living standards of native-born Americans through trying to prevent people from moving to the United States. no one argues that we are a nation of laws. that we have borders. and that laws need to be enforced. but to view immigration -- legal or illegal -- as one of the greatest problems facing the country today is preposterous. we're a profoundly better, more interesting place when we have a continual influx of new blood. and you know what's at the center of this? CAPITALISM! this is the market at it's finest! this is America as it was always meant to be -- endlessly inventive, impossible to generalize about, and confounding to stereotypes and expectations. this land is your land, and this land is my land.

anyway.

i fuckin' love immigrants. i really do. from anywhere and everywhere. we spent the day running errands in traffic-clogged Northern Virginia today. i love driving past Pho restaurants and Salvadorean restaurants and Peruvian chicken and Korean BBQ and Eritrean restaurants and New Zealand diners and Chinese buffets packed with Mexicans and the incredible, diverse selection of vegetables at Grand Mart or (better) Super H Mart. you can't walk through a mall in Northern Virginia and realize that there is no majority, you're all minorities. and when it comes to service sector jobs, give me a hard-working immigrant with limited English who cares rather than a bored teenager and his stupid shag haircut. it's messy, and crowded, and hot today, but it's so vibrantly alive, and so much closer to what this country has always been about than heading out further west into the well-kept but utterly bland exurbs where SUV's roam across wide roads, stopping at Quiznos before pulling up to a McMansion so the obese native born Americans can roll on our and heat up some Hot Pockets before sitting down to watch fucking "Paul Blart Mall Cop" on their plasma TVs.

what's really going on beneath the surface -- and what's been made manifest by the Tea Party kids -- is that we're in the midst of a cultural tantrum about a country that's become unrecognizable from what it was even 25 years ago. we now live in a country where women are the majority in the work force, where gays can get married, where many faiths are as valued as Christianity, where we are all racial and cultural minorities, and where Spanish is a perfectly acceptable lingua franca in certain areas.

and we have a half-black president.

[corianderstem]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

what's really going on beneath the surface -- and what's been made manifest by the Tea Party kids -- is that we're in the midst of a cultural tantrum about a country that's become unrecognizable from what it was even 25 years ago.

I believe there is a whole bunch o' truth in that statement.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

what's really going on beneath the surface -- and what's been made manifest by the Tea Party kids -- is that we're in the midst of a cultural tantrum about a country that's become unrecognizable from what it was even 25 years ago.

Originally Posted by Irvine511

what's really going on beneath the surface -- and what's been made manifest by the Tea Party kids -- is that we're in the midst of a cultural tantrum about a country that's become unrecognizable from what it was even 25 years ago.

Originally Posted by Irvine511

what's really going on beneath the surface -- and what's been made manifest by the Tea Party kids -- is that we're in the midst of a cultural tantrum about a country that's become unrecognizable from what it was even 25 years ago.

Yessir!!!

[Bluer White]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

i fuckin' love immigrants. i really do. from anywhere and everywhere. we spent the day running errands in traffic-clogged Northern Virginia today. i love driving past Pho restaurants and Salvadorean restaurants and Peruvian chicken and Korean BBQ and Eritrean restaurants and New Zealand diners and Chinese buffets packed with Mexicans and the incredible, diverse selection of vegetables at Grand Mart or (better) Super H Mart. you can't walk through a mall in Northern Virginia and realize that there is no majority, you're all minorities. and when it comes to service sector jobs, give me a hard-working immigrant with limited English who cares rather than a bored teenager and his stupid shag haircut. it's messy, and crowded, and hot today, but it's so vibrantly alive, and so much closer to what this country has always been about than heading out further west into the well-kept but utterly bland exurbs where SUV's roam across wide roads, stopping at Quiznos before pulling up to a McMansion so the obese native born Americans can roll on our and heat up some Hot Pockets before sitting down to watch fucking "Paul Blart Mall Cop" on their plasma TVs.

what's really going on beneath the surface -- and what's been made manifest by the Tea Party kids -- is that we're in the midst of a cultural tantrum about a country that's become unrecognizable from what it was even 25 years ago. we now live in a country where women are the majority in the work force, where gays can get married, where many faiths are as valued as Christianity, where we are all racial and cultural minorities, and where Spanish is a perfectly acceptable lingua franca in certain areas.

and we have a half-black president.

Irvine, I like ethnic restaurants too.

We are a nation of laws, not restaurants.

Your post has nothing to do with federal law or Arizona law.

[U2387]

Originally Posted by Bluer White

Start a vegetable garden and find a nice tent, Pearl.

Because enforcing our laws will put groceries and houses out of your price range.

I don't think BVS was going that far.

I think he was merely pointing out that the low cost of labor from illegals does, in many industries, contribute to a downward effect on overall wages, which shows up in prices. And when the Tea Party types have to pay more for anything... well, that is a socialist conspiracy.

That being said, I think the economy could absorb the upward pressure on prices that will come when illegals go through the process and are made legal without too much of an impact on consumer prices. Productivity gains from higher wages and better technology should keep us from paying say, $1 more for each tomato.

This is minimal impact only reinforced by the post that bigjohn copied here saying that there are no jobs Americans will not do.

This is actually quite true.

It may come as a surprise to some, myself included when I first heard it, but there is no industry in this country, food service, day labor, you name it, even the ones that have the highest percentage of immigrants, whose majority is comprised of immigrants.

I will find the statistics, but the most "immigrant dominated" industry, if I recall correctly, still employs about 58% Americans.

So most workers in all industries are covered by the labor laws of the US, including minimum wage, payroll taxes, etc, etc.

So I don't see any kind of inflationary shock when the illegal problem is tackled, which will take time and be a gradual process. Businesses will have time to prepare.

A little bit of upward pressure? Sure, but nothing that will not be counterbalanced, the market is indeed a beautiful thing.