Arizona bill 1070

[BVS]

Originally Posted by U2387

I certainly do not think overhearing someone speaking Spanish would be enough.

Yet, "he looked young" is enough for some judges. My point is that when there are not black and white descriptors set forth it leaves a lot of imagination sometimes.

Originally Posted by U2387

As for reports that fit the description, in order to pull someone over just based on a description, it has to be relatively specific and credible(a Ford conversion van, it has AZ plates with the letters "D" and "Z" in it).

I got pulled over when I was 16 because there was a call about a "black and gray vehicle", no lie... Now I'm not saying it would have held up in court and he did just let me go, but once you get pulled over a lot of things can happen, what if I had beer on me, then I would have to figure out if it's worth my time and money to fight it.

[Pearl]

Schwartz, a retired USPS worker, says undocumented workers are taking jobs from citizens like her teenage granddaughter, who hasn't been able to find a job since she began looking after she turned 15.
"She can't even work at the Hometown Buffet if she doesn't speak Spanish. How fair is that?"

But Schwartz and some other Americans with Hispanic backgrounds who spoke with CNN say the problem with illegal immigrants isn't just the jobs they take. It's how they're overrunning towns like Phoenix, turning them into "mini-Mexicos" with their trash-filled streets and loud music, according to Schwartz.

Of equal concern to her friend, Martha Payan, is how she claims illegal immigrants "fleece" government coffers by collecting welfare on multiple children, or vanish without a trace after an arrest or a hospital visit.
The two women, who became acquainted through various demonstrations in the metro Phoenix area, met Thursday to discuss their views outside the Maricopa County Municipal building, as more backlash against the controversial immigration law continued to flood the city.
Latin pop star Shakira arrived in town Thursday to discuss SB 1070 with Mayor Phil Gordon, who has vowed to fight the law. This comes a day after Mexico urged its citizens not to travel to Arizona.
Sporting a white baseball cap that that reads, "100% American Citizen," Schwartz says she believes that SB 1070 came about because law enforcement in Phoenix was fed up over not being able to ask suspects about their immigration status.
"Any time an American does something wrong or breaks the law they're going to pay the consequences. Whenever an illegal does something wrong they get a new ID and become a new person," she says. "I want the laws same for everybody here, not bent for them."
The 59-year-old mother of four adult children says her Mexican parents and grandparents taught her a respect for the law at an early age. Her grandmother, who lived in Juarez, Mexico, after being kicked out of the United States for smuggling drugs, encouraged her to get a good education and speak English, her second language, outside of the home.
"If I entered another country illegally I'd go to jail, yet they're demanding better treatment than their government would give us," she says.


Anna Gaines, a Mexican-born U.S. citizen, says she took up the fight against illegal immigration after becoming disillusioned by the attitudes of immigrant families that she witnessed as a teacher in the Paradise Valley School District in Paradise, Arizona.
"Many of these families were having one child after another just to earn a paycheck from the U.S. government and they didn't care about their children's education," says Gaines, the controversial founder of American Citizens United, a grass-roots organization known for its extreme views on immigration enforcement.
Gaines, who came to the United States as a nurse on a work visa during the Vietnam War and met her current husband, says she thinks immigrants have changed over the years.
"There used to be a level of dignity and self-respect. They were hard-working people who wanted to contribute to American society because it was better than where they came from," says Gaines, a petite woman in her 70s. "But our government has been giving them handouts for so long that now they expect them."
Gaines says SB 1070 mirrors federal law on fortifying the borders, allowing local officials to enforce immigration law in a manner that the federal government should have been doing all along.
"We as Americans have the right to defend this country's laws. There's nothing racist about protecting the country," she says.

Some Hispanic Americans hope law deters illegal immigration - CNN.com

I'm posting this to show that all kinds of people support Arizona's law. And I believe they have valid reasons.

ETA: I've also done some research on how Mexico treats its illegals, and apparently they do not treat them very well. Actually, it is worse than what Arizona is proposing. But then again, the sources weren't Reuters, AP, or CNN and the like.

[U2387]

Originally Posted by BVS

Yet, "he looked young" is enough for some judges. My point is that when there are not black and white descriptors set forth it leaves a lot of imagination sometimes.

I thought I made myself clear......

Looked young would be enough for all judges if a 16, 17 yr old driver was pulled over and asked for proof of his age.

Verifying by age is quite non controversial. Age in and of itself is the question.

"He looked Hispanic" is "evidence" used to answer the question "might he be illegal?"

That is clearly not allowed.

At least show me you understand the legitimacy of questioning based on age as opposed to the illegitimacy of questioning legal status based on race.

Reasonable suspicion as established after the stop does leave some things to imagination, but not as many as you might think.

As for the initial stop, it is as close to black and white as an unprecedented and ambiguous law will get.

I got pulled over when I was 16 because there was a call about a "black and gray vehicle", no lie... Now I'm not saying it would have held up in court and he did just let me go, but once you get pulled over a lot of things can happen, what if I had beer on me, then I would have to figure out if it's worth my time and money to fight it.

Of course, a lot of things can happen.

I just think in the context of "there are illegal immigrants around" especially in a state with the Hispanic population of Arizona, looking the part would not be enough for the cops to pull you over.

Yes, sometimes descriptions are vague and the cops figure "black and gray, rare enough, in close enough proximity, what is he up to?" and pull you over.

However, this is no different than the time that I was stopped on the street when I was 16 and told to produce ID because they had a shoplifting suspect that fit my description.

Routine investigatory stop based on reasonable suspicion of being involved in a pre existing situation that they have an interest in. Those are fine in court.

If you had a beer on you during such a stop, i.e. you are committing another crime, you are screwed and non controversially so. Would definitely have held up in court. Same for an illegal stopped for another reason who is exposed during the stop.

[U2387]

Originally Posted by Pearl

Some Hispanic Americans hope law deters illegal immigration - CNN.com

I'm posting this to show that all kinds of people support Arizona's law. And I believe they have valid reasons.

ETA: I've also done some research on how Mexico treats its illegals, and apparently they do not treat them very well. Actually, it is worse than what Arizona is proposing. But then again, the sources weren't Reuters, AP, or CNN and the like.

Good point, Pearl!

I will just point out the commentary of Anna Gaines in that article is complete b.s., though.

"We have been giving them handouts for decades."

Illegal aliens are explicitly barred from getting any kind of federal government benefits. Period end of discussion.

This is probably the most widespread complete and utter falsehood in the entire political discourse.

Were the immigrants years ago more likely to want to assimilate to and appreciate our country and less likely to be illegals, most certainly.

Where she loses me is when she repeats a complete absurdity like "they're getting handouts."

[Bluer White]

Arizona deputy shot by alleged undocumented immigrants, authorities say – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs

A sheriff's deputy in central Arizona was shot Friday afternoon by a member of an alleged group of illegal immigrants, authorities said.

The Pinal County deputy, who was not immediately identified, contacted authorities after being wounded in a remote area, said Lt. Tammy Villar, a sheriff's spokeswoman. She said authorities believe he was shot with a AK-47. The deputy was being treated for the wound, but his condition was not immediately known, Villar said.

Pinal County is located between Phoenix and Tuscon and has been described as a key transit point for illegal immigrants. Sheriff Paul Babeu told CNN that an estimated 80 percent of illegal immigrants eventually pass through his county along the way to other locations.

Deputies in the department routinely patrol for illegal immigrants and smugglers, and it's not uncommon for them to be in the field alone, officials said.

It was not immediately clear what led the deputy to engage with the group on Friday.

[coolian2]

sounds like employing lone officers against armed gangs is a bad idea. at least harassing innocent brown people in downtown phoenix should solve the problem.

[Bluer White]

FOXNews.com - Illegal Immigrant Suspected in Killing of Arizona Rancher

PHOENIX -- A prominent southeast Arizona rancher likely was killed by an illegal immigrant, but there's no evidence to suggest there was any confrontation that led to the shooting, authorities said Monday.

The body of Robert Krentz, 58, was located before midnight Saturday on his 35,000-acre ranch about 35 miles northeast of Douglas after his brother reported that he had lost radio contact with Krentz earlier in the day.

At a news conference Monday, Cochise County Sheriff Larry Dever said Krentz was out checking water line and fencing on the land Krentz's family has ranched since 1907. Krentz had weapons with him in his all-terrain vehicle but didn't use them, according to Dever.

Investigators said Krentz apparently came upon one person when he was shot. Krentz was heard telling his brother "illegal alien" on the radio earlier Saturday, and the area of the killing is a known smuggling corridor, according to authorities.

While Krentz was still in his vehicle, mortally wounded, he managed to drive the ATV away from the scene at a high rate of speed before becoming unconscious. The ATV still had its lights on and the engine running when authorities found it.

Foot tracks were identified and followed approximately 20 miles south to the Mexico border by sheriff's deputies, U.S. Border Patrol trackers and Department of Corrections dog chase teams, authorities said.

The sheriff's office said Krentz's body was transported to the Cochise County Medical Examiner's Office for an autopsy to determine approximate time of death.

So far, there have been no suspects identified and no arrests.

"We are assuming he escaped south into Mexico," Dever said of the shooter.

Dever told a Tucson newspaper that while investigators don't have a motive yet, retaliation has been raised as a possibility. The day before the shooting, the victim's brother, Phil Krentz, reported drug smuggling activity on the ranch to the Border Patrol.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Bluer White

Arizona deputy shot by alleged undocumented immigrants, authorities say – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs

"Alledged illegal immigrant" eh?

Great job of proving my point.

Thank you.









Do legal citizens not murder? This is news to me...

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Pearl

I'm posting this to show that all kinds of people support Arizona's law. And I believe they have valid reasons.

You thought this woman had valid reasons? Like what? If they came over legally they still wouldn't be taking jobs? They still wouldn't be making "mini-Mexicos"? This woman is an idiot.

Originally Posted by Pearl

ETA: I've also done some research on how Mexico treats its illegals, and apparently they do not treat them very well. Actually, it is worse than what Arizona is proposing. But then again, the sources weren't Reuters, AP, or CNN and the like.

Why is it that when we want to support an issue like this, or torture, we say, "well look at what they do". Why not hold ourselves to a higher standard?

But your CNN, AP, liberal media dig was funny...

[Irvine511]

illegal immigrants kill police officers because they are ... illegal immigrants?

no, because that individual was a murderer.

immigrants are much more law-abiding than average americans. "illegals" as well.

whether or not an illegal immigrant murdered anyone has absolutely nothing to do with the questions at hand.

[PhilsFan]

You can't even find a murder committed by a legal citizen these days.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

immigrants are much more law-abiding than average americans. "illegals" as well.

Except for the being in the country illegally thing. The driving without a license or insurance thing. The not filing Income Taxes thing. The falsifying work applications, lease agreements, banking records and such by lying or using stolen identities thing.

Or except for the empirical evidence thing:
The Pew Hispanic Center study from February 2009 found that even though Hispanics make up 13 percent of the adult population, they accounted for 40 percent of sentenced federal offenders in 2007.

whether or not an illegal immigrant murdered anyone has absolutely nothing to do with the questions at hand.

Somehow I can't imagine you ever expressing the same sentiment substituting "a member of the Tea Party" for "illegal immigrant." I really can't.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Except for the being in the country illegally thing. The driving without a license or insurance thing.

See? They got INDY... The law is working. Now his kid doesn't have to grow up in a classroom that is majority hispanic(this is in reference to a previous post of his).

[INDY500]

which post was that?

[BVS]

Awhile back in reference to California approaching 2/3 hispanic kindergarten rooms. You were very concerned, you never told us why but it was a moment when you let your guard down...

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by U2387

Illegal aliens are explicitly barred from getting any kind of federal government benefits. Period end of discussion.

This is probably the most widespread complete and utter falsehood in the entire political discourse.

Two words. Anchor baby.

Look at the numbers. Look at the instant benefits. And look at the costs to states.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Two words. Anchor baby.

Look at the numbers. Look at the instant benefits. And look at the costs to states.

Look at reality.

Look at the costs for future prevention, look at the cost for deportation, and look at the cost when you have to actually pay full price for produce, construction, house keeping, etc...

The fiscal conservatives haven't pulled out their calculators latley, they're letting their fear take over.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by BVS

Awhile back in reference to California approaching 2/3 hispanic kindergarten rooms. You were very concerned, you never told us why but it was a moment when you let your guard down...

I do remember that. And while those are 2005 stats I'm sure it's still true. My concern is that most of those Hispanic kindergartners can't speak English.

Are you not concerned by that?

[coolian2]

Originally Posted by INDY500

My concern is that most of those Hispanic kindergartners can't speak English.

Are you not concerned by that?

neither can a decent number of white americans. now that's concerning.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by INDY500

I do remember that. And while those are 2005 stats I'm sure it's still true. My concern is that most of those Hispanic kindergartners can't speak English.

Are you not concerned by that?

Well, like I said back then, it's a double edged sword. Isn't it suppose to be majority rule? And why are we judging by kidergarten terms?

The fear is very xenophobic...