Anti-Tax Tea Parties Held Across U.S.

[purpleoscar]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

when it comes to actual goods and services, the market is a better judge of quality than the governments are. but it's absolutely utopian to think that the market is better at everything. look at what's just happened. when Ponzi products are traded back and forth -- subprime mortgages just to begin with -- only the government can step in and regulate before the market goes on to ruin lives and the entire economy.

Yeah but when the government pushes banks to increase risky loans it's the same thing as telling investors to take more risks. Investors in a normal mindset wouldn't invest in low yield investments with high risk. The banks pretty much had to lie to the public to get the money to lend. Banks are intermediaries. They won't loan their own money but make money by being the go-between of investors and borrowers. I do feel disappointed that they didn't fight back against the government and raise hell but ACORN political correctness and the race card was used to shame bankers into making these loans. I mean would you personally save and invest in risky investments knowingly for low yields? Increases in risk should have an increase in reward to be worth it. When the government makes regulations to protect investors but pushes for more investment in risky borrowers it sends a mixed message.

Government should regulate but we all know that there are loopholes and just plain bad regulations that don't work (SOX didn't prevent private equity firms from hiding toxic assets). It's not more regulation but smart regulation. Unfortunately that means we have to rely on the "right" people at the "right" time scenario which is usually disappointing. I believe that most managers in the market aren't all that into free markets and feel that they can take any risks they want because they feel they are too big to fail. This is a narcissistic cultural element that I don't know the cure for. I've been studying narcissism for a while now and having big egos = entitlement behavior and that seems to be the popular zeitgeist of today in western democracies. Couple that with a reliance on special interest groups. Everyone wants to receive but how many want to pay?

Originally Posted by Irvine511

you have such an uninformed view of the "democrat base" and it's so ridiculously biased that it's hard to know where to begin.

There are some responsible Democrats who voted against much of the stimulus so I applaud those guys but they are not even close to the majority of that party. Most of the stimulus money is going to special interest groups for buying votes (not a new concept in either party though there is a difference in degree). Most left-wing parties throughout the western world believe that organizing into special interest groups is the only way to get what people want. Yet getting tax payers to band together (hence unorganized temporary tea parties) has something left to be desired. Everyone is splitting into these NGO's and other groups like unions and want to get special benefits but fail to realize that much of the same population in these groups will have to pay taxes for it.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

No it doesn't. Democrats don't support fiscal responsibility. Look at them now. In actions they don't. Unless I see an about face there is no evidence that Democrats are really doing anything about fiscal responsibility. They are following the Krugman template which is about spending our way out of a recession. Isn't this over spending what got us into the problem in the first place?

Look at Republicans now. What did they do the last 8 years? I'm sorry did they have control of house, senate and white house recently how responsible were they then? Give me a break.

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

Why do we have anti-trust laws then? Just because there is some complexity in standards it doesn't mean that it wouldn't improve competition. It's easier to collaborate with other insurance companies when there are more border restrictions.

The complexity leads to the reasons why so many can't cover multiple states at a time. We've talked about this. There would have to be a complete overhaul of the industry as a whole.

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

- No cap and trade. Support more nuclear power plants. (Some military are pushing for fusion over fission for a long-term plan 30 years on). Cap and trade or carbon taxes = higher energy costs for all.
- Don't increase health-care coverage. Do the U.S. have to rely on Chinese bondholders for this too?
- Lower corporate taxes. Both the U.S. and Canada are uncompetitive in this area.
- Cut wasteful spending in all departments (including non-essentials in the military). Both McCain and Obama know there is wasteful spending in all areas. Most politicians tolerate it because it's a way to buy votes. Obama basically admited that when he attempted to look at spending on government workers having a "trickle down" effect. Use line-item veto on earmarks like promised.
- Don't shake hands with Chavez (which is quickly undermining Democracy in his own country).
- I don't know what the best timing for this suggestion is but at some point critical areas of Iran's nuclear program will have to be destroyed. If there are critics of this, who cares? See link on Aesop's fables.
- Finish off the Taliban with or without the help of Pakistan (obviously with is better than without). Set a timetable to withdraw in Iraq and Afghanistan in stages (some of this is already in the works). Some Iraq vetrans can move to Afghanistan (Obama is working on this).
- Continue supporting more free trade in South America. Brazil is a bit two-faced on this but with more negotiations it could turn around. If Stephen Harper in Canada can do this so can Obama.

You're still missing the point. Some of this is just political garbage. But you're ignoring the issues of the very current problems with AIG, Detroit and the American auto industry, the rising unemployment, etc... Can you try and address these specifically? Otherwise you're just as confused as the tea partiers. In other words what would you have wanted McCain to do within his first 2 months to try and solve this problem?

[Turn up the AC]

The "Tea Party" in Memphis was a total joke. Organizers claimed they were "protesting out of control spending in Washington", but I think it was just an excuse for religious kooks and closet bigots to come out without fear of reprisal. I saw signs that were opposing gay marriage, affirmative action, city-county consolidation (that is a major racial/political issue going on now in Memphis & Shelby County), and social programs designed to help the underprivileged in West TN. Aside from the social programs, what do the other issues have to do with Washington spending? There were also signs opposing abortion and gun control. Again, I don't see the connection here.

I think the Tea Party participants would have had more supporters if their main goal was to speak out on Washington spending. Instead, they saw this as an opportunity to promote their own social and moral agendas.

[purpleoscar]

Originally Posted by BVS

You're still missing the point. Some of this is just political garbage. But you're ignoring the issues of the very current problems with AIG, Detroit and the American auto industry, the rising unemployment, etc... Can you try and address these specifically? Otherwise you're just as confused as the tea partiers. In other words what would you have wanted McCain to do within his first 2 months to try and solve this problem?

- End subprime loans.
- Bailout AIG and only allow bonuses when there is success. AIG insurance supports 80% of banks. No bonuses for Fannie Mae and Freedie Mac employees.
- No earmarks.
- Let investment banks fail. Only support commercial banks.
- Let American auto companies go into bankruptcy protection. Apparently they will probably go that way anyways because without restructuring (ie. letting go of employees that are not needed) they can't sell cars that people don't demand. Losses of jobs will happen anyways.
- Companies and banks that did the right thing will expand and take up some of the employees who lost their jobs.
- Extend employment insurance benefits and welfare benefits where applicable. This is obvious.
- I'm okay with an increase in monetary production during deflation but I don't want interest rates to stay too low for too long because we need people to save again or else we'll go into stagflation. High inflation can kill jobs. Wages have a hard time keeping up with inflation.
- Instead of a 6% reserve ratio the Canadian 9% seems more robust. If and when there is a run on the banks enough cash should be made available so panic dies down. Raise the ratio higher if necessary. (This is really important and the main thing that will keep a depression from occuring).
- Regulations preventing the packaging of risky securities with safe securities should be banned and it should be clear who the investor is and who the borrower is.

Some of these ideas are good. Especially getting the government to stop pushing for high risk loans:

Republican Bailout Ideas | The Political Bear

- The corporate tax rate being lowered is important now. Increased trade is important now. Even a 1 year tax holiday would be a good idea since companies with losses would not pay tax anyways.
- Government can train where applicable so those who have to move to other industries have opportunities to do so.
- The other long-term approaches I mentioned in other posts are important such as no cap and trade schemes or carbon taxes since they just raise costs
- Freeze health and education expenses. If Americans want more government control of healthcare they are going to have to wait until a proper balanced budget is possible in the future before going down that path.
- No personal tax increases or decreases. No social security tax credits. Social security has enough problems down the road to deal with.

This decade may be a lost decade because there is no quick fix. People over-leveraged for years and it will take years to deleverage. The most important thing is to get Americans producing products again and to attract as much investment as possible. Once the toxic assets are sold back onto the market (when there is real demand again), the government can pull back more. At this point the government should never allow inflation to increase as high as it has in the past and should measure real inflation for their interest rate moves instead of ignoring food and energy. Too much inflation leads to more booms and speculative investments that distort the market.

If the public wants to gamble on the stock market and wants to get into flipping again there will be more booms and busts in the future. The west shouldn't pursue 0% savings rates and not expect over-leveraging. Sadly the government can't do anything about stupid behaviour. It's up to the public to keep their freedom. If they saved more people would have a buffer to deal with economic changes much easier. The most the government can do is what I mentioned regarding keeping inflation at a reasonable low level to reduce the temptation for gambling or at least to prevent too much borrowed money going into day-trading speculation. This also helps preserve value of savings so people will have some incentive to save. Increased production increases our purchasing power.

I'm not an expert yet I can figure out some obvious solutions. I mean if there are any other conservatives that have other solutions I'm all ears. Obama should be focussing more on banks, credit, and military than health-care and education. There's only so much that debt that can be racked up so priorities should be made.

[BVS]

Finally...

Thank you for addressing the question.

But if the tea parties were really about spending and principle even your plan would have pissed them off.

But you're white and conservative so they probably would have praised the plan.

I appreciate you attempting to answer my question.

I think it's sad that those that came in here and praised the tea parties couldn't do the same, I think it just goes to show the failure of these tea parties.

It will be interesting to see what history says about them, my guess is history will call them a joke, but we'll see...

[purpleoscar]

Originally Posted by BVS

It will be interesting to see what history says about them, my guess is history will call them a joke, but we'll see...

Understand that most liberals and conservatives are not specialists. I'm different because I believe that curiosity is important for people to have good reasons for voting and that we rely so much on other experts that it's important to compare and have my own opinion. I'm sure most of the tea partiers feel the deficit is getting too large and it will continue to do so in the future so they feel the tax pinch is coming. This is where politicians from both the left and right use demagoguery to advance their own interests. I feel many of the tea partiers are right without actually knowing why. It's true that many conservatives aren't taking the leadership plunge just yet because they want Obama to do the screw ups and then they can criticize afterwards. After all that's what they do all the time so the public needs to have their own solid opinions because politicians change with the wind.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

I feel many of the tea partiers are right without actually knowing why.

How can you say that when you just laid out an imaginary plan that went against what they are apparently protesting? You baffle me...

Originally Posted by purpleoscar

It's true that many conservatives aren't taking the leadership plunge just yet because they want Obama to do the screw ups and then they can criticize afterwards.

Well I think they are hoping Obama screws up so they can criticize later...
This is exaclty why this whole thing is a joke. Conservatives aren't stepping up because right now, all they have is theory, and it's a theory that would probably fail in this current environment and I think many secretly know this. There is no one in their right mind that would just sit back in this current environment and allow the market to just heal itself, even your plan acknowledges that... That's why these tea parties weren't really about spending or bail outs, they were a conservative bitch fest. Nothing more, nothing less...

[purpleoscar]

Originally Posted by BVS

How can you say that when you just laid out an imaginary plan that went against what they are apparently protesting? You baffle me...

Originally Posted by BVS

Well I think they are hoping Obama screws up so they can criticize later...
This is exaclty why this whole thing is a joke. Conservatives aren't stepping up because right now, all they have is theory, and it's a theory that would probably fail in this current environment and I think many secretly know this. There is no one in their right mind that would just sit back in this current environment and allow the market to just heal itself, even your plan acknowledges that... That's why these tea parties weren't really about spending or bail outs, they were a conservative bitch fest. Nothing more, nothing less...

Remember lots of the spending (health-care, earmarks, construction projects happening after the recession is over and auto-bailouts) have nothing to do with the banking system. Plus green initiatives will just create higher energy prices because nothing is cheaper than coal and oil right now. There's plenty for conservatives to bitch about.

The only green energy that might revolutionize things is a prototype coming in around 20 years:

Department of Energy - Fusion Energy

[BVS]

I give up, you're missing the point...

[INDY500]

By William M. Welch, USA TODAY
LOS ANGELES — Voters in California on Tuesday slapped down a slew of tax hikes and borrowing measures that Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said were needed to solve the state's fiscal dilemma.
Four out of five measures dealing with higher taxes had failed by nearly 2-to-1, and the fifth was trailing badly. The only measure to pass was one that banned pay raises for elected officials in deficit years.

Among those going to the polls was Kerrie Von Korper, a grocery worker said she voted "no on everything. "We all have to live within our means, and that includes the state," she said.

"No more taxes," Karen McCune, a retiree from Long Beach, said as she exited her polling place.

President Obama, the chuckleheads at MSNBC, and Colin Powell Republicans -- go ahead, keep mocking.

[zooropop40]

Originally Posted by INDY500

President Obama, the chuckleheads at MSNBC, and Colin Powell Republicans -- go ahead, keep mocking.

wow this thread just woke from the dead. um...well... I hope your profile picture is sarcastic because otherwise you are representing the worst president in this nations history.

[2861U2]

Originally Posted by INDY500

President Obama, the chuckleheads at MSNBC, and Colin Powell Republicans -- go ahead, keep mocking.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi

[zooropop40]

Originally Posted by 2861U2

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi

Right. and this quote could also be used to describe the GOP right now... so I really dont understand your point?

[BVS]

Originally Posted by INDY500

President Obama, the chuckleheads at MSNBC, and Colin Powell Republicans -- go ahead, keep mocking.

Has almost nothing to do with the tea parties though...

Like I asked the tea partiers early, and which none were able to answer...

What is the non-Colin Powell Republican plan for this state? How is a bankrupt state going to pay for a decent fire fighting team when the next big wild fire strikes? Just let the homes heal themselves? It's one thing to stand up against taxes, but where is the Republican plan? You probably wouldn't be mocked as much if you all actually had an alternative, but you don't...

[zooropop40]

Originally Posted by BVS

Has almost nothing to do with the tea parties though...

Like I asked the tea partiers early, and which none were able to answer...

What is the non-Colin Powell Republican plan for this state? How is a bankrupt state going to pay for a decent fire fighting team when the next big wild fire strikes? Just let the homes heal themselves? It's one thing to stand up against taxes, but where is the Republican plan? You probably wouldn't be mocked as much if you all actually had an alternative, but you don't...

I'd really like some of the GOP to give some plans instead of complaining.

[INDY500]

1) STOP SPENDING SO MUCH. To quote a famous ex-California governor, “It's time we reduced the government's budget and left the family budget alone.”

2) STOP driving businesses and "the rich" out of your state with steeply progressive taxes. It's not good for your tax base, although Oregon and Nevada thank you.

3) STOP expecting your citizens to pay for healthcare, education and other services for illegal residents.

4) Your public-employee pensions are apparently outrageously lavish. Maybe fix that.

5) STOP being envirowienies and start collecting oil revenues by allowing offshore drilling.

6) STOP electing muscleheads that can't even pronounce the name of your state as governor and start electing drop-dead gorgeous beauty queens with solid traditional values.

That's where I'd start anyway.

[zooropop40]

I responded to your previous post in the bold lettering...

1) STOP SPENDING SO MUCH. To quote a famous ex-California governor, “It's time we reduced the government's budget and left the family budget alone.”

and what is your alternative to investing money in the economy by government spending... ?? and dont say "tax cuts" because those will not work in the economy we are in right now. Most economist agree that the stimulus package was the best thing we could have done

2) STOP driving businesses and "the rich" out of your state with steeply progressive taxes. It's not good for your tax base, although Oregon and Nevada thank you.

I dont know if you are aware but we have had a progressive tax code throughout almost all of american history. Reagan's taxes for the wealthy were much higher than Obama's...but no one calls him socialist? not only that...but a progressive tax code works. Here is why: http://www.u2interference.com/forums...me-197697.html

3) STOP expecting your citizens to pay for healthcare, education and other services for illegal residents.

Parts of congress and Obama actually have some good ideas for helping to minimize the amound of illegal residents in this country...but still in what way would we be able to do what you are proposing?

4) Your public-employee pensions are apparently outrageously lavish. Maybe fix that.

There are way more important issues than this

5) STOP being envirowienies and start collecting oil revenues by allowing offshore drilling.

Ok...offshore drilling does not even pale in comparison to the amount of money we could make off of investing in new technologies, the new "energy-cores" (which I doubt you know about), and other programs to help reduce energy- obama made a great step the other day with the car regulations


6) STOP electing muscleheads that can't even pronounce the name of your state as governor and start electing drop-dead gorgeous beauty queens with solid traditional values.

WHAT!?! Beauty queens with traditional values? What is traditional values? its a made up term to describe something that the right-wing wants. Traditional values are not found in the bible, and being against gay marriage is unfathomable in my mind...but ok...


That's where I'd start anyway.

all i can say is thank god we have obama now instead of the guy in your avatar.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by INDY500

1) STOP SPENDING SO MUCH. To quote a famous ex-California governor, “It's time we reduced the government's budget and left the family budget alone.”

It's a great platitude, it's too bad no one ever comes up with specifics as to where to cut...

Originally Posted by INDY500

2) STOP driving businesses and "the rich" out of your state with steeply progressive taxes. It's not good for your tax base, although Oregon and Nevada thank you.

How many businesses have migrated out of California in the last year? Do you have numbers, or is this speculation?

Originally Posted by INDY500

3) STOP expecting your citizens to pay for healthcare, education and other services for illegal residents.

Would you rather have the state pay for the gathering up and deportation of the brownies?

Originally Posted by INDY500

4) Your public-employee pensions are apparently outrageously lavish. Maybe fix that.

Apparently outrageous? Well are they or aren't they? Should we just get rid of pensions altogether?

Originally Posted by INDY500

5) STOP being envirowienies and start collecting oil revenues by allowing offshore drilling.

Yeah, I'm a conservative, I don't need science. I don't care what the planet will be like in 100 years I won't be here. Who needs to see the mountain tops in LA anyway? Let's use up what we got, we'll come up with an alternative when we run out. Screw those sandal wearing, long hair, earth loving, love your enemy, non money seeking hippies!!! Why can't they be more like supply side/ NRA Jesus...

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by INDY500

President Obama, the chuckleheads at MSNBC, and Colin Powell Republicans -- go ahead, keep mocking.

so what percentage of the population does that leave "The Real GOP" with?

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by zooropop40

I responded to your previous post in the bold lettering...

1) STOP SPENDING SO MUCH. To quote a famous ex-California governor, “It's time we reduced the government's budget and left the family budget alone.”

and what is your alternative to investing money in the economy by government spending... ?? and dont say "tax cuts" because those will not work in the economy we are in right now. Most economist agree that the stimulus package was the best thing we could have done

California government spending, that's what we're addressing, has doubled over the last decade. Their deficit is projected to be $21.3 billion. Sorry but you can't spend (even if you call it a stimulas package) or borrow your way out of a deficit. That used to be common sense.

2) STOP driving businesses and "the rich" out of your state with steeply progressive taxes. It's not good for your tax base, although Oregon and Nevada thank you.

I dont know if you are aware but we have had a progressive tax code throughout almost all of american history. Reagan's taxes for the wealthy were much higher than Obama's...but no one calls him socialist? not only that...but a progressive tax code works. Here is why: http://www.u2interference.com/forums...me-197697.html

California, specifically what we are talking about, has the highest income tax (something like 10% on all income over 50K), the highest sales tax, the highest gas tax, and one of the highest business taxes in the union. When your neighboring states have much lower rates guess what starts to happen?

3) STOP expecting your citizens to pay for healthcare, education and other services for illegal residents.

Parts of congress and Obama actually have some good ideas for helping to minimize the amound of illegal residents in this country...but still in what way would we be able to do what you are proposing?

Cut off all services. California residents voted to do this but... and stop me if you've heard this one before, the California courts overturned the will of the people. You can't have open borders and a welfare state. California proves this as illegal immigration costs CA taxpayers an estimated 10.5 billion a year. That's half the deficit right there.

4) Your public-employee pensions are apparently outrageously lavish. Maybe fix that.

There are way more important issues than this

90% pay after 30 years of service seems a little generous to me, but would be a matter between the state and its employees except for the fact that it's billions in the red already. So it isn't working.

5) STOP being envirowienies and start collecting oil revenues by allowing offshore drilling.

Ok...offshore drilling does not even pale in comparison to the amount of money we could make off of investing in new technologies, the new "energy-cores" (which I doubt you know about), and other programs to help reduce energy- obama made a great step the other day with the car regulations

There's a great song by The Mamas And the Papas called 'California Dreaming.'

Offshore drilling = money into the treasury.
"Investment" = spending out of the treasury.
And reducing energy = lower standard of living == less tax revenues. Bad idea when you're already spending way more than you collect.

Build some nuclear power plants if you're worried about oil spills or greenhouse gas emissions. No, that would make too much sense.

6) STOP electing muscleheads that can't even pronounce the name of your state as governor and start electing drop-dead gorgeous beauty queens with solid traditional values.

WHAT!?! Beauty queens with traditional values? What is traditional values? its a made up term to describe something that the right-wing wants. Traditional values are not found in the bible, and being against gay marriage is unfathomable in my mind...but ok...

Well you're in the minority, even in California, and you're even at odds with President Obama who you seem to believe has all the answers.

That's where I'd start anyway.

all i can say is thank god we have obama now instead of the guy in your avatar.

Is everything George Bush's fault? He completely failed to control illegal immigration true, but California is to blame for most of California's woes.