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Old 02-22-2012, 11:07 PM   #681
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i don't think that all of INDY's criticisms are wrong, per se. i think a vastly simplified tax code and pension reform are two important steps to take.

i just think he's aiming at the wrong targets. your average government worker is hardly your enemy.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:21 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by Irvine511
i don't think that all of INDY's criticisms are wrong, per se. i think a vastly simplified tax code and pension reform are two important steps to take.

i just think he's aiming at the wrong targets. your average government worker is hardly your enemy.
Not only that but his own tea party proudly signed an oath and fought not to change those tax loop holes.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:25 PM   #683
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So if I follow you, Big Government creates these loopholes precicesly so the corporations will have to hire armies of lawyers. . .

The noble corporations would NEVER lobby for these selfsame loopholes in the first place, would they.

No,of course not.
I mentioned the army of corporate lobbyists at the teat of government a few posts back. It's fine to be sarcastic with me but do try and keep up.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:28 PM   #684
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i think a vastly simplified tax code and pension reform are two important steps to take.
I'm going to end the evening in full agreement and on a positive note.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:59 AM   #685
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Yes, well who writes the loophole-laden tax codes that require corporations to hire armies of tax lawyers?
The people that need those loopholes.
The 'special' people, interested in it.

Whatever they pay armies of tax lawyers, they save more in those same loopholes. Cost effective. Common sense business practice.

So to specifically answer your question, it is the special interests that hire lawyers to craft legislation that is then incorporated by the politicians.

Look at the Health Care Reform bill for a perfect illustration.
Who wrote it? Republicans? Democrats? Uh, no. The Health insurance lobby wrote it - that's why it was done behind closed doors.
They said "we can digest this...and we won't fight it and we won't fight against your re-elections" and that's why it included the mandate that nobody outside of the insurance companies really wanted. It was a compromised dogshit bill and even Obama knew it.

So yeah, about having to hire "armies" of lawyers to deal with tax codes...why would they do that? Because it is to their advantage.
See: General Electric.

Why were those tax codes so advantageous to GE and not average tax payers? Because they are in bed with the same people making those loop holes and then working to effectuate them.

THIS is the problem with the whole U.S. government.
The system is already bought and paid for.
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:31 AM   #686
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Corporations are people too... am I right?
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:19 PM   #687
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They are, by far, the most powerful 'people' in the United States.
Far more powerful than the measly President.
In fact you could say that they are our representative Government.

Look...I'm a free market capitalist. I truly am.
But we have to be reasonable on all fronts.
Our Government is not a true representative democracy.

And until people stop believing the partisan rhetoric (from either side) designed to keep the status quo, nothing can progress towards real change.

Capitalism isn't evil but corporatism is reality.
We need regulations and a free market.
And a government once again accountable to the people.
And by "people" I don't mean corporations.
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:39 PM   #688
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The people that need those loopholes.
The 'special' people, interested in it.

Whatever they pay armies of tax lawyers, they save more in those same loopholes. Cost effective. Common sense business practice.

So to specifically answer your question, it is the special interests that hire lawyers to craft legislation that is then incorporated by the politicians.

Look at the Health Care Reform bill for a perfect illustration.
Who wrote it? Republicans? Democrats? Uh, no. The Health insurance lobby wrote it - that's why it was done behind closed doors.
They said "we can digest this...and we won't fight it and we won't fight against your re-elections" and that's why it included the mandate that nobody outside of the insurance companies really wanted. It was a compromised dogshit bill and even Obama knew it.

So yeah, about having to hire "armies" of lawyers to deal with tax codes...why would they do that? Because it is to their advantage.
See: General Electric.

Why were those tax codes so advantageous to GE and not average tax payers? Because they are in bed with the same people making those loop holes and then working to effectuate them.

THIS is the problem with the whole U.S. government.
The system is already bought and paid for.
Crony capitalism 101. Republicans and Democrats are equally guilty and I agree, it has to be changed. Uniform tax codes, and lessening the governments' involvement in the economy is the only way to get corporations competing in the marketplace, rather than K street, with their dollars. the only way to slow down the building of McMansions around Washington, D.C.

The exact opposite direction this administration is taking us.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:25 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post
They are, by far, the most powerful 'people' in the United States.
Far more powerful than the measly President.
In fact you could say that they are our representative Government.

Look...I'm a free market capitalist. I truly am.
But we have to be reasonable on all fronts.
Our Government is not a true representative democracy.

And until people stop believing the partisan rhetoric (from either side) designed to keep the status quo, nothing can progress towards real change.

Capitalism isn't evil but corporatism is reality.
We need regulations and a free market.
And a government once again accountable to the people.
And by "people" I don't mean corporations.


Is there anything we can do to try and get the last part of your post to be a reality? Or is it a losing battle at this point?
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:08 PM   #690
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I mentioned the army of corporate lobbyists at the teat of government a few posts back. It's fine to be sarcastic with me but do try and keep up.
I'm well aware of your teats post, thank you.



My point is that you want it all to be the fault of Big Government, whereas I put more of the onus on Big Business. Big Business CREATES the teat and then sucks on it.

U2DMFan said it much better than I could:

Quote:
Originally Posted by U2DMfan View Post
The people that need those loopholes.
The 'special' people, interested in it.

Whatever they pay armies of tax lawyers, they save more in those same loopholes. Cost effective. Common sense business practice.

So to specifically answer your question, it is the special interests that hire lawyers to craft legislation that is then incorporated by the politicians.

Look at the Health Care Reform bill for a perfect illustration.
Who wrote it? Republicans? Democrats? Uh, no. The Health insurance lobby wrote it - that's why it was done behind closed doors.
They said "we can digest this...and we won't fight it and we won't fight against your re-elections" and that's why it included the mandate that nobody outside of the insurance companies really wanted. It was a compromised dogshit bill and even Obama knew it.

So yeah, about having to hire "armies" of lawyers to deal with tax codes...why would they do that? Because it is to their advantage.
See: General Electric.

Why were those tax codes so advantageous to GE and not average tax payers? Because they are in bed with the same people making those loop holes and then working to effectuate them.

THIS is the problem with the whole U.S. government.
The system is already bought and paid for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Crony capitalism 101. Republicans and Democrats are equally guilty and I agree, it has to be changed. Uniform tax codes, and lessening the governments' involvement in the economy is the only way to get corporations competing in the marketplace, rather than K street, with their dollars. the only way to slow down the building of McMansions around Washington, D.C.

The exact opposite direction this administration is taking us.
I think we're essentially on the same page. It's just obscured by a rather one-sided summation of "where the problem lies" on your part. I'm not about to believe that a President Romney or President Santorum (or a President Daniels) for that matter would go any different direction than Obama has. They're already in bed with the corporations, and they haven't even been elected yet.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:56 PM   #691
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Obama is not going in the right direction (he is far too right wing), but the GOP would take us in an even worse direction.
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:43 AM   #692
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the only way to slow down the building of McMansions around Washington, D.C.


weird, don't see anywhere in or around DC on this list:

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Old 02-24-2012, 06:25 PM   #693
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The exact opposite direction this administration is taking us.
And the Republicans will go in that exact same direction as well.
There is absolutely no impetus for them (either party) to do otherwise.
They want the status quo - which keeps them (individually) in power.
Those that are principled and honorable enough to stand against these sort of things are either rendered ineffective and sent home because of that or labeled by the establishment (on either side) as fringe-thinkers.

The more people realize that both sides are equally guilty, the better chances we have to fix it.

I wouldn't blame you, Indy, for saying "I'm with the Republicans because of issue X, Y or Z"...hell, we only have two choices. But to believe that the Republicans are any kind of alternative to corporatism is ludicrous.

We have growing deficits, Big Government, inability to raise revenues, all of it comes from the same place. They are afraid of losing their elected positions.

If they didn't give a shit about their re-elections, they'd do exactly what they are supposed to do. Cut as much as we can, raise some revenues, cut the deficit as close to '0' as possible, watch the economy grow, and see people returning to work.

Right now they all have plausible, political deniability.
"You see, it's the other side that's screwing you!"
We need to get more people to wise up. It's both parties fault, and we have to throw umbrella fixes over both of them at the same time, period.

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Is there anything we can do to try and get the last part of your post to be a reality? Or is it a losing battle at this point?
Term limits, banning lobbyists in whatever way possible, real election reform, many things that NOBODY is talking about. Not Romney, not Gingrich, not Obama, not even Ron Paul, really.

The system has designed itself, through years of political strategy, into a two party corporatized monopoly. People as wide on the spectrum as Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan have been saying this for years. More and more people are seeing this as a reality, which is really the only antidote -people wising up to it. Neither party is a good alternative to THIS particular problem. They are both, precisely, the problem.

I'll have a detailed answer to your question later on when I have more time.
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Old 02-25-2012, 07:37 PM   #694
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Old 02-25-2012, 08:14 PM   #695
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Term limits, banning lobbyists in whatever way possible, real election reform, many things that NOBODY is talking about. Not Romney, not Gingrich, not Obama, not even Ron Paul, really.

The system has designed itself, through years of political strategy, into a two party corporatized monopoly. People as wide on the spectrum as Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan have been saying this for years. More and more people are seeing this as a reality, which is really the only antidote -people wising up to it. Neither party is a good alternative to THIS particular problem. They are both, precisely, the problem.

I'll have a detailed answer to your question later on when I have more time.
Oh, absolutely, I agree with those ideas. I meant more is there anything we can do to try and get those ideas to become reality-I should've clarified that . How can we raise more awareness of these issues to where the candidates themselves HAVE to start talking about it?

I look forward to your detailed response when you have the time .
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Old 02-26-2012, 03:48 PM   #696
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Crony capitalism 101. Republicans and Democrats are equally guilty and I agree, it has to be changed. Uniform tax codes, and lessening the governments' involvement in the economy is the only way to get corporations competing in the marketplace, rather than K street, with their dollars. the only way to slow down the building of McMansions around Washington, D.C.

The exact opposite direction this administration is taking us.
Regan and Clinton administration deregulation of the financial industry laid the groundwork for the financial crisis we currently find ourselves scrambling up the other side of. Saying we need less government regulation of everything across the board is ignoring the reality selfish human interest and greed.

I am all for simpler tax codes, of course, but the financial industry needs a leash considering the fact that, you know, they can break our economy by doing dumb shit.
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Old 02-26-2012, 04:23 PM   #697
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I look forward to your detailed response when you have the time .
Every time I begin to post something, I retract it and start over. Turns out my 'detailed answers' were much more about the problem than the answer.

It's complicated, there are so many issues...I feel like I could type a thousand words on this. It's such a clusterfuck, that I feel each facet needs to be explained, rather than making statements as facts without justification. And yet...any solution that can reach the idiotic masses, needs to be able to be dumbed down into a very concise argument.

And that 'winnable' argument is that Republicans and Democrats don't care about the people anymore. They are more concerned with holding on to their elected office. I think you could get just about anyone to digest this, if it's done in the proper way.

So, to begin...I think the easiest way to getting real reform is a motivated non-partisan grassroots effort and for the media to pick up on it. If we could get the John King's and Brett Baer's of the world to start talking to candidates about it, we could at least start a public dialogue. One of the big stumbling blocks to it, is making sure that the movement itself isn't swallowed up into the hyper-partisan bullshit. Both the Occupy movement and the Tea Party had a more wide appeal than they were eventually tagged with...part of this is after the politicians get involved (and the super simple news media) most of the 'middle' crowd says 'fuck this' and doesn't want to be associated with ignorance (see: Occupy Oakland and certain elements of the Tea Party).

So the grassroots movement would have to be, from the jump, decidedly Independent. Conservative Independents, Libertarian Independents, Green Independents, Liberal Independents, Moderate Independents. All coalescing around one key issue. Returning the U.S. Government to true representative democracy.

Essentially, we're gonna have to bust up the Two Party Monopoly together. And this can only be done by totally disassociating with ALL Republicans and Democrats and considering them the enemy. You can be as conservative or liberal as you want, no ideological disagreements would matter. The main goal would be for petitions to circulate to get an Independent, from either side (more Liberal and more Conservative) on the national ballot.

The asshole news media, which spent more time on Whitney Houston in one week than it has EVER spent covering term limits or lobby reform, would follow the herd. All they care about is getting asses in front of televisions, or clicks on websites. And so we should use the media to form the grassroots and not the other way around. Otherwise, the grassroots would quickly skew ideological from ignorant radicals.

Now, this is going to sound ridiculous at first but hear me out. What does the media flock to quicker than anything else? You could get a B-level celebrity on MSNBC or FOX quicker than you could get just about anyone short of Obama. Because as Boner likes to say, celebrity is ridiculous but it is currency and they should spend it wisely. If we could get a couple of real A-listers like Boner, ideally a conservative and a liberal, to team up and start selling the message of ending Big 'sold out' Government, then maybe people would at least start talking about it. The only agenda being - REFORM of the SYSTEM. No issues with which to divide us, just about having our votes mean something and forcing Republicans and Democrats to be accountable, only, to the people.

I think it would need to resemble...as ironic as this sounds...a lobby.
A Grover Norquist-like pledge system. They either pledge to support term limits, lobby reform and election reform, or we find primary candidates that will and defeat them.

That's about the only way I can see it happening. There are a couple of others but they would be MUCH more difficult. And part of what I was writing earlier (before erasing it), explaining the problem, was why there are so very, very few plausible options.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:06 PM   #698
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Regan and Clinton administration deregulation of the financial industry laid the groundwork for the financial crisis we currently find ourselves scrambling up the other side of. Saying we need less government regulation of everything across the board is ignoring the reality selfish human interest and greed.
How do you explain the economic upswings during the Reagan and Clinton administrations then?


(My apologies for forgetting my American history.)
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:33 PM   #699
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while i dislike the culture of assumed tipping, this guy should probably be fed to the wolves.
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:43 PM   #700
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How do you explain the economic upswings during the Reagan and Clinton administrations then?
Business cycles probably.
But so much of it has to do with consumer confidence. I think Canadiens is right and as I'm sure he'd agree, those regulations also need to be reasonable. The problem is, the push back against any regulation from the Right is considerable. Makes it hard to protect consumers. At the same time, you don't want to handcuff the 1% of the people having the real money that bolsters the economy.

What we end up with is a bullshit partisan construction of No Regulations vs Unreasonable Regulations, so they (either side) can frame the political discourse into Us vs Them, precisely to keep the choice as A or B. While we all know that a comfortable compromise can and should be made.

I was a kid during the Reagan era (6-14) so my recall of the economic history is much more by cultural osmosis. In the Clinton era, I was 18-26, so I remember it well. If you look at the economy right after Windows 95 came out, then later Windows 98, you can explain it pretty well right there. That kick started what we call The Internet, even though it had existed prior to that. I got online first in 1997, it was a BOOM. We also had a balanced budget which gave investors the confidence to spend money like it was going out of style.

Of course the bullshit partisan construction in hindsight is that it was a Bubble, which was true, and that it was somehow a false notion of economic success.

The Reagan economy speaks highly for low taxation.
Uncomfortable truth for some. But again, I think most on the Left understand that it doesn't serve the interest of average consumers to be taxed to death.

Personally, I attribute most all economic success/growth/recovery to consumer confidence. If you have an extra $100, do you feel confident enough to go buy that new pair of shoes you want? Or do you feel like you need to save it for a rainy day? That confidence comes from, IMO, the average person looking at the ability of the government to handle their business. But it always helps to have new industry.

We need a competent, accountable Government and new industry in my view.

So to answer your question, I think the consistent thread to the economy in both the Clinton and Reagan era (note -Democrat and Republican control in both cases) was that people had confidence that shit wasn't going to fall off the cliff at any moment's notice. We had a lot of the same problems as we do now. All recent administrations played a part in what happened in 2008. And the recovery from what happened has been worsened by mistakes, hyper-partisanship and mostly the inevitable finally coming to fruition.
We have a lot of shit we don't know how to pay for. And that isn't unique to the Obama administration, it's just suddenly we've all agreed something had to finally be done. Which is unfair, but could actually serve Obama's benefit. His second term could be incredible...then again, it could also go the exact opposite.
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