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Old 07-12-2010, 03:14 PM   #321
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i agree. you appear to think that the will of the voters should trump the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the decisions of the judiciary.
But we're not talking about a situation that has yet been found to trump the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the decisions of the judiciary, are we?

Sean's right that there is an inherent tension between our two perspectives on government -- that tension between legal precedent and principles of self-governance. This tension has allowed the system to endure. Part of the genius of the Founding Fathers, I suppose...
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:38 PM   #322
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But we're not talking about a situation that has yet been found to trump the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the decisions of the judiciary, are we?

we're talking about many situations, not only limited to California, from Prop 8 to Prop 187 to Brown vs. Board of Education to Dred Scott to the presently very popular Arizona 1170.

laws must be constitutional, and we elect people to make policy, we don't vote on policy itself. many laws have been challenged and found to be unconstitutional, regardless of their popularity or the will of the people.

i don't think there's a tension. i think you're being deliberately obtuse about the system and falling back on "founding fathers" and "trusting the people" cliches. -- which, notably, is the last remaining non-animus argument the NOM people have on the Prop 8 issue, as all other arguments were demolished by Olsen/Boies in Schwarzenagger vs Perry.

since we're talking about the FF, i'll offer some Thomas Jefferson:

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I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.
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Old 07-12-2010, 04:54 PM   #323
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I like Thomas Jefferson quotes too. Here's one:

"The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object."

I also rather enjoy, "The basis of our government being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right."

There is indeed a tension between principles of self-governance and representative government. At what point does the gap widen to the point where a government is no longer "of the people, by the people, and for the people"? For many, the last eight years illuminated just such a widening gap between the governors and the governed; they and we are now reaping the result.

Government ignores the will of the people at its peril. For, to repeat another quote from that anachronistic old Founding Father you mentioned, "I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical."
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Old 07-12-2010, 05:10 PM   #324
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when i was in high school, we voted to make all the kids with red hair wear signs that said: KICK ME, I'M A GINGER.

it was awesome.

i mean, some of them cried, but whatever. we voted. and they were only 5% of the population.
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Old 07-12-2010, 05:19 PM   #325
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Old 07-12-2010, 05:49 PM   #326
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Posted on Sun, Jul. 11, 2010
NAACP considers resolution decrying racist elements in tea-party movement

By JUDY L. THOMAS
The Kansas City Star

The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People will propose a resolution this week condemning racism within the tea party movement.

The resolution, scheduled for a vote as early as Tuesday by delegates attending the annual NAACP convention in Kansas City, calls upon “all people of good will to repudiate the racism of the Tea Parties, and to stand in opposition to its drive to push our country back to the pre-civil rights era.”

NAACP leaders said the resolution was necessary to make people aware of what they believe is a racist element within the tea party movement.

“I think a lot of people are not taking the tea party movement seriously, and we need to take it seriously,” said Anita Russell, head of the Kansas City chapter of the NAACP. “We need to realize it’s really not about limited government.”

Russell said she was “pretty certain” the resolution would pass.

Tea party leaders deny that the movement is racist and said the resolution is unfair.

“I just don’t see racism in the tea party movement,” said Brendan Steinhauser, director of campaigns for FreedomWorks, which organizes tea party groups. “Racism is something we’re absolutely opposed to.”

“The NAACP has more of a political agenda now, but I would hope that they would appreciate the fact that the tea party movement has a lot in common with the civil rights movement. I’m personally inspired by what the civil rights movement did, and I want them to know that.”

Among the charges lodged against the tea party in the resolution:

•Tea party supporters have engaged in “explicitly racist behavior” and “displayed signs and posters intended to degrade people of color generally and President Barack Obama specifically.”

•Tea party activists have used racial epithets, have verbally and physically abused black members of Congress and others, and have been charged with threatening public officials.

Tea party supporters also have a distorted view of race relations, the resolution says, citing poll data that found that 25 percent believe that the Obama administration’s policies favor blacks over whites, and 52 percent believe that “too much” has been made of the problems facing black people, compared with 28 percent of the general population.
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Old 07-12-2010, 05:55 PM   #327
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“I just don’t see racism in the tea party movement,” said Brendan Steinhauser, director of campaigns for FreedomWorks, which organizes tea party groups. “Racism is something we’re absolutely opposed to.”
I think these people scare me the most. The guys with the signs are scary but it's a given that you're going to have ignorant assholes in every group, party, or organization. But those that turn the blind eye enable this behaviour or secretly support it... these are the ones that scare me the most.
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Old 07-12-2010, 06:36 PM   #328
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when i was in high school, we voted to make all the kids with red hair wear signs that said: KICK ME, I'M A GINGER.

it was awesome.

i mean, some of them cried, but whatever. we voted. and they were only 5% of the population.
You, my friend, went to a fucked up high school.
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Old 07-12-2010, 06:56 PM   #329
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You, my friend, went to a fucked up high school.


you should try spending a day in the shoes of a Ginger.
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Old 07-12-2010, 06:58 PM   #330
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you should try spending a day in the shoes of a Ginger.
Hey, hey -- some of my best friends are Gingers.

On the lighter side:
Teabonics: The most ridiculous - and misspelled - tea party protest signs
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:50 PM   #331
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But we're not talking about a situation that has yet been found to trump the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the decisions of the judiciary, are we?

Sean's right that there is an inherent tension between our two perspectives on government -- that tension between legal precedent and principles of self-governance. This tension has allowed the system to endure. Part of the genius of the Founding Fathers, I suppose...
That tension i.e. balance is the key to our system.

However, the real question, I maintain, is whether an issue such as gay marriage qualifies as a civil rights issue. Those who oppose gay marriage would say that it does not--thus correctly conclude any moves to enshrine it in to law without the will of the people would be in violation of the principles of our government. On the other hand, those who support gay marriage maintain that it IS a civil rights issue, and therefore, oorrectly conclude that when the will of the people would deny those rights, the will of the people must be overridden.

Once you settle the argument over the nature of gay marriage, you both should find the conclusion about how it relates to our democractic system relatively simple.
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:16 PM   #332
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Posted on Sun, Jul. 11, 2010
NAACP considers resolution decrying racist elements in tea-party movement

And Democrats wonder why independents and swing voters are leaving them in droves.
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:28 PM   #333
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Yeah. They should totally be okay with racist elements in the tea party movement, right?
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Old 07-14-2010, 12:00 AM   #334
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I kinda wish the NAACP would stay out it. The tea party is doing a pretty good job by itself of corroding conservative credibility in America.
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Old 07-14-2010, 01:28 AM   #335
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I kinda wish the NAACP would stay out it. The tea party is doing a pretty good job by itself of corroding conservative credibility in America.


agreed. we don't need them to point out the obvious.
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:18 AM   #336
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Yeah. They should totally be okay with racist elements in the tea party movement, right?
They seem to be okay with "racist elements" in their own organization. Not to mention not one bit of evidence supports the "N-word" incident prior to the HC vote.
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:27 AM   #337
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The NAACP as a racist organisation
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:00 AM   #338
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I kinda wish the NAACP would stay out it. The tea party is doing a pretty good job by itself of corroding conservative credibility in America.
Agreed 100%
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:05 AM   #339
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Not to mention not one bit of evidence supports the "N-word" incident prior to the HC vote.
Well there really isn't any evidence to support either claim.

But if there were I wonder if any of the "little San Francisco" would be as bold or ignorant as to still deny it with the evidence right there before their eyes?

Such as you have on many occasions.

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Old 07-14-2010, 11:24 AM   #340
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AP

DES MOINES, Iowa – A billboard created by an Iowa tea party group comparing President Barack Obama to Adolf Hitler and Vladimir Lenin has been removed.

Kent Beatty, the general manager of the company that owns the billboard, says a North Iowa Tea Party representative called Tuesday night and asked that the sign in downtown Mason City be removed.

Beatty says his company replaced the sign Wednesday morning with a public service announcement.

The original sign showed photographs of Obama, Nazi leader Hitler and communist leader Lenin beneath the labels "Democrat Socialism," "National Socialism," and "Marxist Socialism."

Some tea party members criticized the sign, and North Iowa Tea Party co-founder Bob Johnson acknowledged the pictures overwhelmed the intended message of anti-socialism.
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