Another US Patriot passes away..

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Was He with Joshua when he brought down the walls of Jericho?
According to your beliefs, yes, and even though the slaughter of the Canaanites in all likelihood didn't happen, if we take the story as true, it shows a harmful deity, one which enables genocide.

One is better off without moral justification from such an entity, abstract and mutually agreed principles of individualism and liberty develop better ethics than through bibliotheism.
 
Was He with Joshua when he brought down the walls of Jericho?

Well, apparently he just sat in his corner and waited for the Christian Europeans to set foot on this holy, promised land. And now the US has a monopoly on God.
 
Well, apparently he just sat in his corner and waited for the Christian Europeans to set foot on this holy, promised land. And now the US has a monopoly on God.

Well, let's face it, the rational clear thinking countries don't really want him. The message appears to be "fine, YOU take him"
 
Wrong, the national mints couldn't make any changes to U.S. coins without congressional approval. In God We Trust was added to coins only after congressional acts in 1864, 1865, 1873 and has been on all coins since 1938 !!!

It was added to U.S. notes in 1957. In God We Trust became our national motto in 1956 when the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress.
You're certainly more proficient at using the google than I, probably because the topic is far more important to you, as is evading the point, which is that the phrase was not originally intended to be on the money, regardless of the exact date it was added.
 
First off, good argument.

God has chosen His nation already so there's little use in trying to steal that mantle.

But under the new covenant aren't all believers "Abraham's seed"?

But interestingly, John Winthrop and the early Puritans did see America as the New Israel. And, AND, no less than Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin proposed Promised Land imagery for our first U.S. Seal. Call it Providence, Manifest Destiny or American Exceptionalism, but our country was formed with an eye towards the heavens.

Perhaps, but the aspects of our country's formation that emphasized the "Manifest Destiny" idea--was that a good thing? I think not.

The Declaration, Constitution, Bill of Rights and those quotes I listed earlier, while not derived from scripture, really do presuppose a decent and moral citizenry, which at that time and continuing until the present has largely in this country been supplied by Judeo-Christian teachings. That's the self-governing part. And of course the Founders appealed to an authority above the state as the source of unalienable rights.

I think A_W addressed this well.

As for the "tip of the hat." Two things. Having a civil religion with occasional Christian language or references is not in any way the same as establishing a national Christian religion. Would we really be better off as a nation if the great speeches of Lincoln, Washington, Reagan, FDR and MLK were stripped of their biblical touchstones? Should Barack Obama cut out that "I am my brother's keeper" rhetoric? Is nothing gained when a president ends a speech with "God Bless America" or begins his term with "So help me, God"?

I don't have a problem with religious language or references being used by our leaders. I do have a problem with it being codified.

Two. I have no idea how often God intervenes into the affairs of man or nations. But don't you want leaders that ask for guidance from this great source of wisdom we believe in? Shouldn't our country have a day of Thanksgiving and acknowledge our many blessings? No one believes public faith should replace private faith but shouldn't we encourage policies and language that fosters the second?

I know the Bible instructs us to pray for our leaders (and in the NT we're talking about pagan Roman emporers), but I don't see anything in Scripture that suggests that they must reflect our beliefs or encourage policies that foster our private faith. Unless you're talking about a theocracy (which OT Israel was), the Bible doesn't seem to worry too much about the government reflecting our faith.

Freedom and religion flourish in this country because we draw from both secular and religious traditions but never rely wholly on either.
What other country can you say that about?

Again, see A_Wanderers post.

My main challenge to you remains the same. Is this really a spiritual issue for you, one that can be backed by Scripture, or is it more of a cultural issue, one that longs for a time when Christian faith was just assumed and the atheists kept their doubts to themselves?
 
God has chosen His nation already so there's little use in trying to steal that mantle. But interestingly, John Winthrop and the early Puritans did see America as the New Israel. And, AND, no less than Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin proposed Promised Land imagery for our first U.S. Seal. Call it Providence, Manifest Destiny or American Exceptionalism, but our country was formed with an eye towards the heavens.

The Declaration, Constitution, Bill of Rights and those quotes I listed earlier, while not derived from scripture, really do presuppose a decent and moral citizenry, which at that time and continuing until the present has largely in this country been supplied by Judeo-Christian teachings. That's the self-governing part. And of course the Founders appealed to an authority above the state as the source of unalienable rights.

As for the "tip of the hat." Two things. Having a civil religion with occasional Christian language or references is not in any way the same as establishing a national Christian religion. Would we really be better off as a nation if the great speeches of Lincoln, Washington, Reagan, FDR and MLK were stripped of their biblical touchstones? Should Barack Obama cut out that "I am my brother's keeper" rhetoric? Is nothing gained when a president ends a speech with "God Bless America" or begins his term with "So help me, God"?

Two. I have no idea how often God intervenes into the affairs of man or nations. But don't you want leaders that ask for guidance from this great source of wisdom we believe in? Shouldn't our country have a day of Thanksgiving and acknowledge our many blessings? No one believes public faith should replace private faith but shouldn't we encourage policies and language that fosters the second?

Freedom and religion flourish in this country because we draw from both secular and religious traditions but never rely wholly on either.
What other country can you say that about?



could you cite your sources please?
 
Two. I have no idea how often God intervenes into the affairs of man or nations. But don't you want leaders that ask for guidance from this great source of wisdom we believe in?

Absolutely not !

Their guidance should be from a source a little more qualified than the supernatural.

May as well just make decisions by rolling a dice.



Shouldn't our country have a day of Thanksgiving

We do, it's called "Thanksgiving", 4th Thursday of November.

No one believes public faith should replace private faith but shouldn't we encourage policies and language that fosters the second?

No. Why ? Would you support policies and language that foster atheism ?



Freedom and religion flourish in this country because we draw from both secular and religious traditions but never rely wholly on either.
What other country can you say that about?

Many countries have some combination of both.

Debatable whether it's a good thing.
 
You're certainly more proficient at using the google than I, probably because the topic is far more important to you, as is evading the point, which is that the phrase was not originally intended to be on the money, regardless of the exact date it was added.

I seriously doubt old Abe's mom and pop conceived him with the intent of providing a profile for a penny either.

The fact is, we put symbols and mottos of who we are and what is important to us as a nation on our money.

E Pluribus Unum
Eagles
Liberty
In God We Trust
Past presidents
And on the back on the Indiana quarter...
images
 
We do, it's called "Thanksgiving", 4th Thursday of November.

Ever read Lincoln's Proclamation declaring a national holiday?
Washington, DC—October 3, 1863

The year that is drawing toward its close has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added which are of so extraordinary a nature that they can not fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever-watchful providence of Almighty God.

In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign states to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere, except in the theater of military conflict, while that theater has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union.

Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defense have not arrested the plow, the shuttle, or the ship; the ax has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well as the iron and coal as of our precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege, and the battlefield, and the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom.

No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy.

It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently, and gratefully acknowledged, as with one heart and one voice, by the whole American people. I do therefore invite my fellow-citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next as a day of thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners, or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently[/b] implore the imposition of the Almighty hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it, as soon as may be consistent with the divine purpose,[/b] to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity, and union.

In testimony whereof I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.

President Lincoln

And people wonder why we started putting In God We Trust on coins the next year. Because we did... and still do.
 
Why did George Washington give his inaugural address inside of a church?

Because we're a secular society.

Why is that church still standing today?

Because the Twin Towers fell down all around it on Sept 11,2001 and God is an Atheist.

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Perhaps the CIA thru time travel backed by monies channeled by the Illuminati used mind control techinques and forced George to say these nonsensical things:

Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own, nor those of my fellow-citizens at large less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States.

yeah
yeah

that's the ticket.

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Why did George Washington give his inaugural address inside a church?
Diamond, i think the actual address was given in the Senate chamber (then in NY) before public ceremonies then switched to St Paul's.
Why is that church still standing today?

Because the Twin Towers fell down all around it on Sept 11,2001 and God is an Atheist.
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Or because GWB and Cheney ran out of explosives before they could wire the old chapel. :wink:
 
Diamond, i think the actual address was given in the Senate chamber (then in NY) before public ceremonies then switched to St Paul's.


:

Ok, here's what I understand:

On the 30th of April Washington was inaugurated President of the republic. The ceremony took place in the open gallery of the old City Hall (afterward called Federal Hall), on the site of the present Custom-House, in the presence of a vast multitude. Washington was dressed in a suit of dark brown cloth and white silk *stockings (note potentail Gaydar situation), all of American manufacture. His hair was powdered and dressed in the fashion of the day, clubbed and ribboned. The oath of office was administered by Robert R. Livingston, then chancellor of the State of New York. The open Bible (then and now the property of St. John's Lodge of Freemasons of the City of New York), on which the President laid his hand, was held on a rich crimson velvet cushion by Mr. Otis, Secretary of the Senate. Near them were John Adams, who had been chosen Vice-President; George Clinton, Governor of New York; Philip Schuyler, John Jay, General Knox, Ebenezer Hazard, Samuel Osgood and other distinguished men. After taking the oath and kissing the sacred book reverently, Washington closed his eyes and in an attitude of devotion said: "So help me God!" The Chancellor exclaimed, "It is done!" and then turning to the people he shouted, "Long live George Washington, the first President of the United States." That shout was echoed and re-echoed by the multitude, when the President and the members of Congress retired to the Senate Chamber, where Washington pronounced a most impressive inaugural address. At the conclusion, he and the members went in procession to St. Paul's Church (which, with the other churches, had been opened for prayers at nine o'clock that morning), and there they invoked the blessing of Almighty God upon the new government. The first person who grasped Washington's hand in congratulation, after the ceremony, was Richard Henry Lee, his friend from childhood, to whom he had written when they were boys nine years of age-"I am going to get a whip-top soon, and you may see it and whip it." How many human whip-tops had these staunch patriots managed since they wrote their childish epistles!

I think it was all a CIA plot thru time travel duping the early American into thinking the avowed secularists were indeed God fearing Christians to control the citizenry.

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GeorgeWashingtonPraying.gif


..and here in this oft misinterpreted picture George is kneeling because he dropped one of his mittens while riding and looking for it in the snow.

Notice his hands were cold; therefore he is rubbing them together.

He also closed his eyes because of an intense flare up of a migraine headache-while contemplating where to search for his gloves.

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when the President and the members of Congress retired to the Senate Chamber, where Washington pronounced a most impressive inaugural address.

In fact, the address starts off;
"Fellow-Citizens of the Senate and of the House of Representatives"

I'm still trying to figure why if all our Founding Fathers were Deists (who didn't believe God intervenes in the affairs of man), would insist on His blessing our new government and opening every session of the Continental Congress, U.S Congress and U.S Supreme Court with a prayer?

I thought that all started in the 50's in response to Communism and Rock n Roll.
 
Nobody is claiming that all the founding fathers were deists, only that they were mostly secularists (evidence in the primary documents) and some of the more influential were not Christians.

I feel that the clear separation between Church and State advocated by Jefferson is the ideal, and even if he was a literalist theist who only wanted separation so his fundamentalist beliefs wouldn't be persecuted I would agree. Once you allow some religion to be infused in legislation, a little bit of favor here, a slight rewording there, the state is getting involved where it shouldn't. The government should not recognise any Gods, but not prevent peoples free exercise of religion.

Look at the first war that the USA waged against Muslim thugs, the explicit statement in the Treaty of Tripoli that undercuts the historical revisionism to claim America as a Christian state
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
 
GeorgeWashingtonPraying.gif


..and here in this oft misinterpreted picture George is kneeling because he dropped one of his mittens while riding and looking for it in the snow.

Notice his hands were cold; therefore he is rubbing them together.

He also closed his eyes because of an intense flare up of a migraine headache-while contemplating where to search for his gloves.

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Well, again to be accurate it's a painting "The Prayer at Valley Forge" rather than a picture. But a nice painting at that and one unlikely to appear in any current public school history book.

Perhaps, rather than a lost mitten, he's looking for the Abominable Snowman, The Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy, The Right to Same-Sex Marriage or some other mythical notion.
 
Nobody is claiming that all the founding fathers were deists,
Reread the thread.
Once you allow some religion to be infused in legislation, a little bit of favor here, a slight rewording there, the state is getting involved where it shouldn't. The government should not recognise any Gods, but not prevent peoples free exercise of religion.

You sure? Abolition, temperance, opposition to the death penalty, abortion or same-sex marriage and the civil rights movement all have roots in religious interpretation. Imposing public policy because some (often of different faiths) people support it for religious reasons is not imposing religion.
Look at the first war that the USA waged against Muslim thugs, the explicit statement in the Treaty of Tripoli that undercuts the historical revisionism to claim America as a Christian state
To say we were founded on the Christian Religion would imply federal religious tests or mandatory worship, which the Founders were dead set against. But it wasn't that they were secularists, it's that they thought the matter properly regulated by state, not federal, law. In fact, all but 2 of the original states did have religious tests.
It would be rewriting history to claim we were founded as a Christian nation, but so is trying to argue that we were founded to be a secular nation or that our nation and it's Founding Fathers weren't primarily Christian and our laws thusly influenced.
 
I wrote the posts alluding to Jefferson, Franklin and Paine; I know what I intended and so did most responders.
You sure? Abolition, temperance, opposition to the death penalty, abortion or same-sex marriage and the civil rights movement all have roots in religious interpretation. Imposing public policy because some (often of different faiths) people support it for religious reasons is not imposing religion.
And the lord hath delivered him into my hands...

You have just conceded.

Abolition was advanced on non-religious grounds by enlightenment thinkers while it was justified in explicitly religious terms by slave-owners. That blacks are the sons of Ham and bear the curse of Cain made slavery alright with Christianity. Even if all abolitionists were conservative Christians (as opposed to dissenters, radicals and a host of infidels) you can't say they were any more justified in religious terms than bible-quoting slave holders. If you take a second and think about what makes anything right or wrong in the context of slavery religion rapidly evaporates, because both sides can rightly claim religious justification it can't go one way or the other; the reason that Wilberforce was right inevitably back to secular principles of humanitarianism and human solidarity.

Moving along to gay marriage, you've just undercut any argument for civil rights, and told the truth that opposition to gay marriage is ultimately religious. God hates faggotry, so Leviticus must trump equality under the law. Setting up laws which undermine the stability of relationships, as a means of coercion against homosexuality, is wrong. It's almost impossible to justify homophobia in secular terms; homosexuality isn't against nature, it doesn't cause harm and gays are citizens - you seem to take pride in championing bigotry, as if having politicians legislate a Judeo-Christian agenda by banning gay marriage isn't pursuing a religious agenda. You are wrong on this issue, I hope that 50 years from now the gays won't let the mainstream Churches pretend that they were the vanguard of equality, I hope that their reactionary positions are immortalised, because they are so utterly illiberal I would hate for them to be whitewashed.

Onto temperance, I like to drink - its fun, delivers some pleasure and acts a social lubricant. I am aware of the dangers of alcohol, I accept those when I choose to drink, I consent to whatever harm I am doing to my body through moderate drinking. I ought to have sovereignty over my body and mind, thats covered by drinking, prohibition strikes at the core of this principle. When a state makes laws for hardline protestants and enforces them against everybody it is a moral wrong (under my elected framework of individual rights). This example of religious belief running policy shows the danger, it is enforcing religion on people and robbing them of choice, it is respecting an establishment of religion.

You only see the first amendment as a prohibition on state church, wholly ignoring the context of the text, if you take wider evidence such as Jeffersons letter to the Danbury congregationalists it becomes a more separationist statement. '

I stand for freedom of religion and religious pluralism, I think the government shouldn't force you to live by, or affirm, other peoples beliefs; you do not. You want non-believers to affirm that a God exists in the pledge of allegiance, you want your religious freedom - and state recognition of your religious beliefs; that is wrong.

The secularists are on the pro-freedom side, the theocrats (the appropriate antonym of secularist) are imposing and autocratic.

You wondered about my statement of abandoning religion being the start of genuine freedom, I think you answered my rhetorical question better than I could have, only in a state that doesn't recognise any religious beliefs, that shows no preference between them, can a genuinely free society begin to exist.
 
.

he's looking for the Abominable Snowman, The Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy, The Right to Same-Sex Marriage or some other mythical notion.

or

He could have been acknowleding in a belief and Faith in God that you and yours have tried to expugn from the public and

GeorgeWashingtonPraying.gif


recorded USA history.

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Ever read Lincoln's Proclamation declaring a national holiday?


And people wonder why we started putting In God We Trust on coins the next year. Because we did... and still do.

Some of you do.

Some of us don't.

Doesn't make your motto ours.
 
You are being deceitful, the numbers that believe in a personal God are only around 60%.

Interestingly enough most denominations have majorities that believe there are other paths to heaven, the exceptions are the Mormons and Jehovas Witnesses who believe they have the one true faith.
 
You are being deceitful, the numbers that believe in a personal God are only around 60%.

Interestingly enough most denominations have majorities that believe there are other paths to heaven, the exceptions are the Mormons and Jehovas Witnesses who believe they have the one true faith.

And Mormons, Catholics, JWs, Muslims and Hindus have that Right.

Great country huh?

Aside frm the accusatory tone of your first sentence, perhaps we're citing different data.


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People are free to believe absurdities, they don't have the right to inflict it upon others without consent (unless they are children).
 
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