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Old 07-18-2014, 04:08 PM   #81
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Official American position:

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President Obama said Friday that a Malaysia Airlines plane carrying nearly 300 people, including at least one U.S. citizen, was evidently shot down by an antiaircraft missile fired from an area controlled by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine.

In a White House news conference a day after the Boeing 777 crashed en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, Obama stopped short of saying who fired the missile or directly blaming Russia for the deaths, which he called “an outrage of unspeakable proportions.”

But he said the separatists “have received a steady flow of support from Russia,” including heavy arms, training and antiaircraft weapons. Pointing to rebel claims to have shot down several Ukrainian aircraft in recent weeks, including a Ukrainian fighter jet, Obama said it was “not possible for these separatists to function the way they’re functioning . . . without sophisticated equipment and sophisticated training, and that is coming from Russia.”
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Old 07-18-2014, 07:43 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
A tragedy, pretty flabbergasting to wake up to.



It's not something the US isn't guilty of either, is it?



From what I understood the UA government had declared it a no-fly zone, I don't remember it being reversed lately.



Where to start with this?

I do love it when many people just go the casual "Blame Russia!" route, and not taking into account the actions of the Ukrainian government which seems to get a free pass among many Westerners. And the whole "Putin wants the USSR back" is just lazy.
I think P--sy Riot and any other Russians who get silenced would agree that a hint of the USSR can be seen, even if obviously not full blown (as it would clearly not fly with people who lived through it). Or their new ban on swearing coming after their ban on positive speech towards homosexuality. I just don't like that a country that has produced some of the world's greatest art and architecture still have all these restrictions for fear it might go against the Church/Government wishes. Its still much better from the days in the USSR when people had to get Beatles albums on the black market in defiance.

As for what happened there really needs to be some sort of strict international standard going forward to not fly over conflict zones no matter how high up in the sky a plane is.
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Old 07-18-2014, 08:27 PM   #83
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What are the odds the Russian army provided them, in an under-the-table sort of way?

It should be fairly easy to figure out where the missile originated from. The US experts were saying yesterday that they were able to confirm a missile was fired because of a heat map, so it follows that the heat map would reveal the origin of firing as well.
Maybe, definitely possible, but I'm not even sure if the rebels have a border with Russia at this time. I've read recent accounts of people fleeing to Russia as refugees and some of them have said there had been a UA army presence at some border checkpoints. With such a large missile system it would be much riskier than say, a truck carrying firearms or whatever, the UA army would have ways of finding out if a missiles system like BUK was crossing the border I'd think.

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So, apparently Malaysia Airlines is flying MH17 along the same route today.
I don't think that's a wise idea.

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I think P--sy Riot and any other Russians who get silenced would agree that a hint of the USSR can be seen, even if obviously not full blown (as it would clearly not fly with people who lived through it). Or their new ban on swearing coming after their ban on positive speech towards homosexuality. I just don't like that a country that has produced some of the world's greatest art and architecture still have all these restrictions for fear it might go against the Church/Government wishes. Its still much better from the days in the USSR when people had to get Beatles albums on the black market in defiance.

As for what happened there really needs to be some sort of strict international standard going forward to not fly over conflict zones no matter how high up in the sky a plane is.
I don't think there's really much worth in debating in how authoritarian 'this' compared to 'that' is, my main point is not in disagreeing with you about the power of the Russian government, but more so to suggest that the Ukrainian government isn't a walk in the park either which is something you won't hear too much about in the mainstream media. Overall, Eastern Europe is conservative on a social level, and I don't think singling out Russia is particularly fair.

Anyway ...
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Old 07-19-2014, 09:37 AM   #84
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The more I think about it and the more I read, it appears that the whole narrative used from the outset has been even a little too convenient, too obvious?

Was Ukraine’s Ministry of Interior behind the Downing of Malaysian Airlines MH17? | Global Research

The differences in what various UA officials have said come off as being a bit suspicious, and that there are parts of the Ukrainian government that hide things from each other (which seems plausible given how the government was put together post Maidan).

My head hurts.
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Old 07-19-2014, 12:03 PM   #85
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Old 07-19-2014, 12:14 PM   #86
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Terrible. Just terrible and extremely unfortunate. To see the bodies spread around all those gardens and properties. For some reason, I don't see these incidents diminishing. I just see diplomatic ties severing. And not just between two countries, many more.
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Old 07-19-2014, 05:09 PM   #87
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So...this is mind-boggling.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ry?id=24632968
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Old 07-19-2014, 05:41 PM   #88
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Wow, two close calls.
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Old 07-19-2014, 09:30 PM   #89
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Some bodies even fell through local homes, bloody hell.
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Old 07-19-2014, 09:49 PM   #90
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I thought this was a good read: The Infowar Rages in Moscow

And Vlad, stop peddling the incoherent conspiracy theory that Ukraine shot down the plane. Besides the fact that Ukraine has no motive to do so, the rebels' post-crash behaviour is more than sufficiently incriminating. Nobody complicit in downing a plane would be making access to the crash site so difficult for investigators.
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Old 07-19-2014, 10:16 PM   #91
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I thought this was a good read: The Infowar Rages in Moscow
The thing with these sorts of articles is that it assumes that one side is doing the propagandizing, when both West and East have been part of it. You can find countless headlines that sought to immediately blame Russia from the other side.

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And Vlad, stop peddling the incoherent conspiracy theory that Ukraine shot down the plane. Besides the fact that Ukraine has no motive to do so, the rebels' post-crash behaviour is more than sufficiently incriminating. Nobody complicit in downing a plane would be making access to the crash site so difficult for investigators
I'm not calling it as fact, I just believe it's possible. Your bit about the 'rebels making it hard for investigators' is not accurate, because there are photos showing that these observers had made it. So while you accuse me of being the """conspiracy theorist""", why are you so readily believing what Kiev have been saying? And there's nothing to suggest that mainstream Ukrainian media are any more trustworthy than mainstream Russian media, if you look at who owns them.

An independent Ukrainian journalist had been on the site of the crash, and what he observed contradicted the 'rah rah rah rebels ruining everything' narrative.

 

'I didn’t expect to see what I saw on the crash site. It’s a nightmare. Mess. Honestly, I’m not too emotional but…

I want to say something before I publish this brutality. About lies that UA mass media had spread:

1) Militias allow journalists at the crash site without problems, the other thing is that there aren’t cowards from TSN and other “professionals”;
2) No one steals anything from the place, there are piles of things and equipment, everything’s stacked;
3) Dozens volunteer at the crash site, look for bodies and flight recorders, help;

Now the dilemma. I though about how to publish these materials. Decided to retouch the photos. I’ve identified one child that has been on the flight. Don’t think it’s necessary to publish photo as it is. It’s really terrifying.

I think I will publish it at night, sorry for waiting. It’s a tragedy and the one who’s done it must bear responsibility. And I’m almost 100% sure about who did it and why.'
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Old 07-19-2014, 10:44 PM   #92
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There is a need for the bodies to be recovered due to the heat and likelihood of wild animals in the area. Though either way, the rebels are in a lose-lose situation, no matter what they do they're going to be accused of infringing on the investigation. Not to suggest that they have my support at all, however, but they are in between a rock and a hard place right now regardless of if they did or didn't do it.
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Old 07-20-2014, 12:38 AM   #93
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Some parts of this article gave me a morbid chuckle: Top conspiracy theories sparked by MH17 disaster

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The thing with these sorts of articles is that it assumes that one side is doing the propagandizing, when both West and East have been part of it. You can find countless headlines that sought to immediately blame Russia from the other side.
Well yes, but that's only if you're stupid enough to read the Sun (and equivalents) or if you consider dispassionate reports of Tony Abbott's kneejerk "diplomacy" to be endorsing him.

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I'm not calling it as fact, I just believe it's possible.
No, it's completely implausible - and the main Twitter report it's based on was fake. Even if it wasn't fake, though, how many people claimed to see MH370 flying low/exploding/followed? Shit-tonnes, from oil rigs near Vietnam to a village on the Maldives. Those didn't work out to be legit, and there's no reason to believe this either without any meaningful evidence or motive.

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Your bit about the 'rebels making it hard for investigators' is not accurate, because there are photos showing that these observers had made it.
Firing warning shots is a normal part of any investigation?

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So while you accuse me of being the """conspiracy theorist""", why are you so readily believing what Kiev have been saying? And there's nothing to suggest that mainstream Ukrainian media are any more trustworthy than mainstream Russian media, if you look at who owns them.
Where have I cited Kiev or the Ukrainian media? Nowhere.

Look, I know you are deeply suspicious of, even hostile to, the major Western powers and those who they back or prop up. Not without justification in many cases too, though I don't think disdain towards Western powers should lead to any kind of generosity of goodwill towards Russia/pro-Russian rebels, who can be even more dodgy. It's no secret that practically every major Russian media outlet is compromised and unreliable to a significant extent. Many Western outlets are too, be it by sensationalist commercial imperative or overly cosy relationships with governments, but you can't apply that to the whole field. There is a reason why I am happy to take seriously outlets such as the Guardian.
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Old 07-20-2014, 12:55 AM   #94
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Where have I cited Kiev or the Ukrainian media? Nowhere.

Look, I know you are deeply suspicious of, even hostile to, the major Western powers and those who they back or prop up. Not without justification in many cases too, though I don't think disdain towards Western powers should lead to any kind of generosity of goodwill towards Russia/pro-Russian rebels, who can be even more dodgy. It's no secret that practically every major Russian media outlet is compromised and unreliable to a significant extent. Many Western outlets are too, be it by sensationalist commercial imperative or overly cosy relationships with governments, but you can't apply that to the whole field. There is a reason why I am happy to take seriously outlets such as the Guardian.
It's not that I'm feeling any sort of goodwill towards the Russian government or the rebels, and even if it did seem like it before I can tell you it's not reflective of my views. What it all comes down to for me is, I seriously doubt that Russia would do this given its current pariah status in the negative sphere (and to a high degree, rightly so), and for them to shoot down a civilian aircraft would be akin to suicide. It makes no sense from their point of view to do something like this, and I don't think Putin (despite being an objectionable human being politically), is idiotic enough to order this sort of catastrophe. And if they had tried to frame Ukraine by it, nobody from the West would take them seriously and understandably so!

Honestly, even despite my entertaining of a possibility that the Ukrainian government had a deliberate involvement in the downing of the plane, it's more likely that it had been an accident by the Ukrainian army. I don't believe that the Ukrainian government, nor Russia, nor the rebels are all sadistic enough to do this deliberately. With that said, I wish a proper ceasefire would have been established following the disaster, but the Ukrainian army started shelling the city of Lugansk not long after where approximately 40 or so civilians were killed.

The worst part is all of this could've easily been avoided.
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:26 AM   #95
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Why are so many media personalities still saying "the" Ukraine? Are they also reporting on war in Zaire?
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:52 AM   #96
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To tell you the truth I still don't know why that happens.
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:56 AM   #97
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What it all comes down to for me is, I seriously doubt that Russia would do this given its current pariah status in the negative sphere (and to a high degree, rightly so), and for them to shoot down a civilian aircraft would be akin to suicide. It makes no sense from their point of view to do something like this, and I don't think Putin (despite being an objectionable human being politically), is idiotic enough to order this sort of catastrophe. And if they had tried to frame Ukraine by it, nobody from the West would take them seriously and understandably so!

Honestly, even despite my entertaining of a possibility that the Ukrainian government had a deliberate involvement in the downing of the plane, it's more likely that it had been an accident by the Ukrainian army. I don't believe that the Ukrainian government, nor Russia, nor the rebels are all sadistic enough to do this deliberately.
No, I don't think this was a deliberate act either. From the reports I've read across the media, it seems that the pro-Russian separatists accidentally shot down the aircraft (believing it was an Ukrainian military aircraft).

After the bodies have been repatriated the other questions can be answered. What exactly is/was Russia's involvement in arming & training the separatists, especially concerning the use of SAM equipment? Why was this route declared safe? How much knowledge was there that the separatists have the possession of SAM equipment that can reach up to 10 km in the air? Etc.
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:01 AM   #98
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I think it's as good as fact that the rebels didn't have the necessary systems to shoot it down. What they had of it was broken and unusable, and it's not the sort of thing you could lug across the border easily seeing as border checkpoints are constantly being fought over.

I read somewhere that said missile system takes a long time to learn how to use, and it's not exactly the most simple system is it? Anyone could have triggered it by accident.
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Old 07-20-2014, 07:07 AM   #99
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I think it's as good as fact that the rebels didn't have the necessary systems to shoot it down. What they had of it was broken and unusable, and it's not the sort of thing you could lug across the border easily seeing as border checkpoints are constantly being fought over.

I read somewhere that said missile system takes a long time to learn how to use, and it's not exactly the most simple system is it? Anyone could have triggered it by accident.
Actually, from what I understand the rebels did have the necessary systems. Either they captured it from the Ukrainian military or it was transported from Russia. Which is apparently not that difficult (the transport from Russia) as the border is incredibly porous right now. I'm not aware there's much fighting over border checkpoints on between the eastern border of Ukraine (controlled by the rebels) and Russia.
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Old 07-20-2014, 07:23 AM   #100
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But who to trust though? The Ukrainians have said the rebels don't have an operating missile system, the rebels themselves say the same thing, and if it so happened that the Russians sent it across the border and the rebels received it then the Ukrainians would find out easily. It boggles the mind, in the event that this is true it would be a silly move on the part of the rebels and Russia, though even if an operational missile system was in their possession (I'm feeling doubtful about this, to just lug a large missile system in to shoot down a civilian plane and then lug it back over the border again sounds farfetched) I still don't think it goes as far as to prove that the rebels indeed shot the plane.

It might be easy to pass through some border checkpoints at this time but it's still a massive risk and it screams of a bit of a suicide mission.
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