American Way of Birth, Costliest in the World - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-04-2013, 11:39 PM   #81
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,892
Local Time: 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post

The current big-government system allows too many to profit and too few to receive care.
This statement just seems completely wrong to me. First, I'm not sure that we actually have a big government system right now, other than Medicare and Medicaid. And how are those programs allowing too many to profit and too few to receive care?

To me, it is our privatized health care system that allows too many to profit and too few to receive care!

Did anyone read that big investigative piece in Time magazine about how hospital charges are calculated?
__________________

maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2013, 11:43 PM   #82
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,060
Local Time: 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post

This statement just seems completely wrong to me. First, I'm not sure that we actually have a big government system right now, other than Medicare and Medicaid. And how are those programs allowing too many to profit and too few to receive care?

These are wildly popular programs, too. Which is the real danger of the ACA -- that it's a step in a direction that many Americans are going to like, and it's going to be popular.
__________________

Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2013, 11:47 PM   #83
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,892
Local Time: 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
[Note: just trying to explain concepts here]

The best way to understand a pure health care insurance system is to look at automobile insurance. When you purchase a new car, you purchase a policy that will cover costly repairs to the car (you are still responsible for gas, oil, maintenance, etc. on your own). If you get in an accident, insurance steps in to cover the repair bills - that way you can manage your overall cost of maintaining the car with regular monthly payments and avoid getting nailed by the one-time spike in costs. Insurance allows us to manage risk.
I agree that the way we do health insurance makes no sense. In fact, I've used the very same analogy about auto insurance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
Now, let's say the government steps in and tells the insurance company that the policy must cover damage to the car that doesn't occur during the policy period (let's say you buy a car with a dent and then look to insurance to fix the dent).
When did the government begin these mandates? Are you talking about ObamaCare or are you saying that mandates have been added by government fiat over many years? I've always been under the impression that the insurance companies were the ones that made the decisions about what they would and wouldn't cover. At least until ObamaCare came along and demanded that they not deny coverage for pre-existing conditions etc (which from an insurance point of view is kind of crazy, really. They only went along because of the mandate that everyone must have coverage).

Quote:
Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
The individual is no longer managing their own risk, but must help cover additional risks taken by others.
But that's the nature of how insurance works any way. It's not like Geico is taking my premiums and putting them aside for me specifically in case I need them down the road. The premiums of all pay the for the needs of a few (and also help Geico's bottom line).
maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2013, 11:48 PM   #84
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,892
Local Time: 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
These are wildly popular programs, too. Which is the real danger of the ACA -- that it's a step in a direction that many Americans are going to like, and it's going to be popular.
What do you mean by dangerous?
maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 12:23 AM   #85
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,060
Local Time: 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post

What do you mean by dangerous?

Political danger. For the GOP.
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 01:42 AM   #86
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,228
Local Time: 10:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
My thought was more along the line - if we have a nationalized system (no state-to-state differences), what is the base line level of healthcare that should be made available to everyone.
Wow, that goes against most of your fellow supporters that thought "making insurance available over state lines" was one of the answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
Today, we discover that healthcare coverage is rationed by a group of actuaries (i.e., sorry, your test won't be covered until you turn 50, your procedure is only available to people who are in worse heath than you), a top down type of limitation. My idea of "tough questions" would entail building healthcare from the bottom up. This would increase certainty regarding coverages and costs, while reducing the opportunity of businesses to profit from vague mandates.
This would entail completely destroying the current healthcare model previous to the Affordable Care Act, how do you see that going?
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 10:55 AM   #87
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 12:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeevey View Post
I'd like to see them get a lot more vocal about it. I'm not a believer but it's disgusting that these views own the public discourse on Jesus just because they're louder. I'd like to see a lot more Christians speak out publicly and call out Tea Party-Christian nut jobs, saying "This is not of Christ." Because in the public mind, that's really the image that Christianity has.

Some "Christians" defend their refusal to help the poor, whether in their country or in other countries, by using the Biblical quote "charity starts at home" - which is totally taken out of context.
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 12:32 PM   #88
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
jeevey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Rue St. Divine
Posts: 4,096
Local Time: 11:59 PM
To be fair, Christians are generous. They do give a lot to charity, although many times the charities are selective. They are very firm that individuals and churches need to help the poor. They just don't want the government to do it. What I don't understand is making a false distinction about what we do as individuals and what we do as a government-- as though in a democracy the acts of the government were something other than expression of the will of the people. This is especially puzzling considering how that same branch of Christianity is very concerned that the government express Christian values in other ways.
jeevey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 12:39 PM   #89
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 12:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeevey View Post
To be fair, Christians are generous. They do give a lot to charity, although many times the charities are selective. They are very firm that individuals and churches need to help the poor. They just don't want the government to do it. What I don't understand is making a false distinction about what we do as individuals and what we do as a government-- as though in a democracy the acts of the government were something other than expression of the will of the people. This is especially puzzling considering how that same branch of Christianity is very concerned that the government express Christian values in other ways.
I am not saying Christians in general aren't generous. I consider myself a Christian too, though I'm not affiliated with any church. If you notice in my previous post, I put quotations around that word, indicating that those who say they're Christian but yet do act like one, really aren't Christian.

But I agree that it is puzzling that some Americans don't want the government to get involved in helping fellow citizens. Some say it is because the government will be forcing you to give money, rather than choosing to give. That still doesn't make much sense to me. We should all have a moral obligation as citizens to help those in need, no matter what our theological beliefs are.
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 02:53 PM   #90
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeevey View Post
I believe in a world in which we can literally create more good-- that things can get better for everybody, probably indefinitely.


I've read his book, Age of Abundance. It's remarkable.
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 11:06 PM   #91
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,892
Local Time: 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
Some "Christians" defend their refusal to help the poor, whether in their country or in other countries, by using the Biblical quote "charity starts at home" - which is totally taken out of context.
So far out of context as to be questionable whether it is even the Bible it all! The actual phrase is not found in the Bible though there is debate about whether it is implied in some passages.
maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2013, 02:49 AM   #92
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 09:59 PM
I pray every day that I receive the gift of Healing - I would love to walk around town and heal people. Not only would it be awesome to restore people the health, but it would be nice to finally put an end to this corrupt system.
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2013, 11:20 AM   #93
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
So far out of context as to be questionable whether it is even the Bible it all! The actual phrase is not found in the Bible though there is debate about whether it is implied in some passages.
This goes to a broader question of whether Christian principles should be embedded in our form of government. Christ speaks to the individual about how to live life, not Roman leadership on how to structure government.

I'm sure I could flood this thread with posts that argue that Christian principles have no place in US government, but that's a broader concept for FYM.
nbcrusader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2013, 11:45 AM   #94
Refugee
 
Bonoa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: a nuthouse for total Egyptfreaks
Posts: 1,040
Local Time: 06:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post

This goes to a broader question of whether Christian principles should be embedded in our form of government. Christ speaks to the individual about how to live life, not Roman leadership on how to structure government.

I'm sure I could flood this thread with posts that argue that Christian principles have no place in US government, but that's a broader concept for FYM.
Apart from the argument that church and state should be separated at all times, embedding christian principles in US government is discriminative and dangerous.
Former President Bush reduced God to a political agenda, this can grow into some sort of Christian'sharia'. And what about American Jews, Muslims, Native Americans and atheists? Is it even democratic to force christian beliefs upon them?
Bonoa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 06:21 AM   #95
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
mama cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,293
Local Time: 05:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
This goes to a broader question of whether Christian principles should be embedded in our form of government. Christ speaks to the individual about how to live life, not Roman leadership on how to structure government.

I'm sure I could flood this thread with posts that argue that Christian principles have no place in US government, but that's a broader concept for FYM.
that's what it's like in France - religion has no place in government, state schools etc. - it's meant to be a "neutral" secular system, with religion being something that happens in the home... sometimes i think it goes too far, like banning of the burqa, no religious jewellery allowed in schools etc., but i guess France had a pretty bloody past at the hands of religion, between protestants and catholics...
mama cass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 06:53 AM   #96
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
jeevey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Rue St. Divine
Posts: 4,096
Local Time: 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
This goes to a broader question of whether Christian principles should be embedded in our form of government. Christ speaks to the individual about how to live life, not Roman leadership on how to structure government.

I'm sure I could flood this thread with posts that argue that Christian principles have no place in US government, but that's a broader concept for FYM.
This same question is being touched on over in the same sex parenting thread. I think it's a great one to ask. We have a dominant paradigm among Christians the US that says it should, but there has been a lot of variation among Christians through history.
jeevey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 09:10 AM   #97
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nbcrusader View Post
Christ speaks to the individual about how to live life, not Roman leadership on how to structure government.
To be fair, Christ did not teach in Rome, he taught in Israel - which was basically a theocracy (of course he would contend they were getting theocracy wrong, but the Kingdom of God is basically the ultimate theocracy).

From the little bit I've read on the subject - even though Israel was a Roman controlled territory militarily, they rarely meddled in the daily affairs of the Jews.

My point is - Jesus was very much in favor of theocracy, and He is the king. So, as a Christian, the question is most often not about should Scripture influence law - but am I interpreting Scripture correctly.
AEON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 10:07 AM   #98
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 12:59 AM
Perhaps we ought to wait until Christ's return then to make sure we get the theocracy correct because until that time any theocratic government is going to be a discriminatory mess. Cause I'm pretty sure the Golden Rule contingent are not going to be the ones pushing themselves to the top of the theocratic governing food chain.
BonosSaint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 10:19 AM   #99
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,621
Local Time: 10:59 PM
I don't agree that Jesus was for a theocratic government, but even if that were the case, 1) theocracy and democracy aren't compatible (and I'll take democracy 10 times out of 10), and 2) theocracy simply does not work in the real world.

Unless someone would like to show me an example of a multi-cultural society where theocracy works/worked well.

I'll wait.
Diemen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 11:02 AM   #100
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 12:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonoa View Post
And what about American Jews, Muslims, Native Americans and atheists? Is it even democratic to force christian beliefs upon them?
Just an FYI: some Native Americans are practicing Christians. I don't know the percentage, but not all of them adhere strictly to their tribal beliefs.
__________________

Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×