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Old 07-03-2013, 03:02 PM   #41
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How about ANY kind of overhaul.
Well, that's what we got with the ACA and that's pretty much a bust as far as I'm concerned. Essentially all it's done is ensure that every American will have to deal with high premiums and deductibles they can't afford.

Okay, I grant that is a gross oversimplification, but you get my drift.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:07 PM   #42
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what happens if you get cancer?
this might not answer your question as some don't consider skin cancer to be cancer, but my mom is in this situation right now. had she been able to see the usual doctor she'd go to last year, it wouldn't be an issue right now.

however, they no longer accept her insurance, and from these procedures in the past, she's seen invoices of how much insurance covered and couldn't afford $20k+.

it took her six months to find a doctor on her insurance plan who would work on her, while the area spread. it went from needing stitches to needing a graft. then the graft didn't take. she just had the second graft put on a week and a half ago, hopefully this time it took. all because of insurance crap. i'm not posting this for anyone to sympathise, just to point out this bullshit with insurance. i don't expect everything to be free (thanks to taxes it wouldn't be anyway), but being able to see a doctor one day and not the next is infuriating.

and before anyone says it, it's not just because she laid out in the sun too much.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:11 PM   #43
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Well, that's what we got with the ACA and that's pretty much a bust as far as I'm concerned. Essentially all it's done is ensure that every American will have to deal with high premiums and deductibles they can't afford.

Okay, I grant that is a gross oversimplification, but you get my drift.
My hope is that the ACA is a first step in the right direction, I think we were so f##ked that it would have taken a full reboot and everyone knows that would have been impossible. It's going to take decades, insurance companies, drug companies, and yes lawyers have manipulated the system for so long now that it's like a fishing line that had been getting knotted up for years and now you're trying to untangle it.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:12 PM   #44
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this might not answer your question as some don't consider skin cancer to be cancer, but my mom is in this situation right now. had she been able to see the usual doctor she'd go to last year, it wouldn't be an issue right now.

however, they no longer accept her insurance, and from these procedures in the past, she's seen invoices of how much insurance covered and couldn't afford $20k+.

it took her six months to find a doctor on her insurance plan who would work on her, while the area spread. it went from needing stitches to needing a graft. then the graft didn't take. she just had the second graft put on a week and a half ago, hopefully this time it took. all because of insurance crap. i'm not posting this for anyone to sympathise, just to point out this bullshit with insurance. i don't expect everything to be free (thanks to taxes it wouldn't be anyway), but being able to see a doctor one day and not the next is infuriating.

and before anyone says it, it's not just because she laid out in the sun too much.
I hope she recovers well and that the second graft works. That sounds like a truly awful situation. Very similar to what my friend was describing.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:15 PM   #45
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My hope is that the ACA is a first step in the right direction, I think we were so f##ked that it would have taken a full reboot and everyone knows that would have been impossible. It's going to take decades, insurance companies, drug companies, and yes lawyers have manipulated the system for so long now that it's like a fishing line that had been getting knotted up for years and now you're trying to untangle it.
In my opinion nationalized health care, yes, the dreaded "socialized medicine" is the best bet.

But of course it'll never happen.

Maybe if it was socialized at the state level, it might have a chance?

But I doubt it.
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:10 PM   #46
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How about ANY kind of overhaul.

I am a conservative, and I think that health care is basic human right. It goes right to core of our national values of Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness.

My desire to "heal" every human being on US soil (well, the entire world - but we are talking about the US for now) as much a possible stems from my faith, which motivates me to love, which works through modern technology and medicine (as well as prayer, of course).

Health care is not, and never should be, considered a business enterprise.

The good news is that as technology improves - I believe you will see a return of the house doctor and small local clinics to treat the minor aches and pains at a very low cost. Hopefully the more expensive items will come down the same way IT costs have come down (price per performance cost).
If only all Christian Conservatives would follow this lead. Nicely put, man
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Old 07-03-2013, 04:42 PM   #47
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I just want to say, it's really great to see FYM be active again in a way it used to be a long time ago. Old faces, same faces - we're all having great discussions, finding some common ground and having healthy debates. FYM as it should be!
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:17 PM   #48
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I just want to say, it's really great to see FYM be active again in a way it used to be a long time ago. Old faces, same faces - we're all having great discussions, finding some common ground and having healthy debates. FYM as it should be!
Seconded.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:54 PM   #49
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If only all Christian Conservatives would follow this lead. Nicely put, man
Thanks, Jive.

Yes - I find it confusing that the so many Christians are against universal healthcare when the modern hospital system was invented by the Church for Pete's sake!

At some point in time - greed took over and now we have this wonderful mess. But at it's heart, healthcare is about charity for our brothers and sisters that fall sick.

Perhaps everyone should get together and bypass the government - and fund hospitals through our own giving, make it a true non-profit; also knowing that one day we will all be on the receiving end of that charity.

The current quasi-regulated-maximize-profit system is simply a crime.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:58 PM   #50
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Thanks, Jive.

Yes - I find it confusing that the so many Christians are against universal healthcare when the modern hospital system was invented by the Church for Pete's sake!

At some point in time - greed took over and now we have this wonderful mess. But at it's heart, healthcare is about charity for our brothers and sisters that fall sick.

Perhaps everyone should get together and bypass the government - and fund hospitals through our own giving, make it a true non-profit; also knowing that one day we will all be on the receiving end of that charity.

The current quasi-regulated-maximize-profit system is simply a crime.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:59 PM   #51
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In my opinion nationalized health care, yes, the dreaded "socialized medicine" is the best bet.

But of course it'll never happen.

Maybe if it was socialized at the state level, it might have a chance?

But I doubt it.
I think we actually would have stood a better chance of getting there if the ACA had not passed.
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:33 PM   #52
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The healthcare equivalent of police and fire services is the Center for Disease Control (CDC). The CDC, coupled with mandatory vaccination programs, protects society as a whole where it would be difficult, if not impossible, to protect oneself.
That is pretty thin, and I think you know it. Fire services protect society as a whole, yes, but also individuals in the event of disaster. Why should society pay to help one individual as their house burns down, but not as their liver fails? Society is simply a gathering of individuals.

From what I gather, there are some procedures that you do not see fit for a public healthcare system. That's fine (and a totally different debate), but it does not mean that the entire system should be thrown out the window.
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:35 PM   #53
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Yes - I find it confusing that the so many Christians are against universal healthcare when the modern hospital system was invented by the Church for Pete's sake!

At some point in time - greed took over and now we have this wonderful mess. But at it's heart, healthcare is about charity for our brothers and sisters that fall sick.

Perhaps everyone should get together and bypass the government - and fund hospitals through our own giving, make it a true non-profit; also knowing that one day we will all be on the receiving end of that charity.

The current quasi-regulated-maximize-profit system is simply a crime.


Frankly, any other stance from an avowed Christian is simply incoherent.
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:45 PM   #54
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I think we actually would have stood a better chance of getting there if the ACA had not passed.
That is quite possible. It would have been much more elegant - but politically charged - to propose to extend Medicare to all. "Medicare for All" has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:40 PM   #55
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That is pretty thin, and I think you know it.
Yes. A better comparison may have been to compare the CDC to the FBI as a national service. They gather and aggregate information, they have really great research techniques, they keep track of national trends and they ride into town when there's a crisis, but they don't actually provide much in the way of direct care. The FBI is not in any way a substitution for local law enforcement, and the CDC has very little to do with actual health care that's delivered to sick people.
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:05 AM   #56
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I just want to say, it's really great to see FYM be active again in a way it used to be a long time ago. Old faces, same faces - we're all having great discussions, finding some common ground and having healthy debates. FYM as it should be!
Agreed. Despite the disparity of our political predilections, it's certainly been a week of robust discussion. (It almost makes up for the lack of any new album news. Almost.)
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:09 AM   #57
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That is pretty thin, and I think you know it. Fire services protect society as a whole, yes, but also individuals in the event of disaster. Why should society pay to help one individual as their house burns down, but not as their liver fails? Society is simply a gathering of individuals.
The question was: police and fire are "socialized" services, shouldn't healthcare be fully socialized as well. I tried to point out it was apples to oranges, not suggest the CDC should function as our healthcare system. I would reject the notion that “if government provides (a), then it should provide (b), (c) and (d).

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To be clear, people who favor national health care do not consider the Affordable Care act to be a solution to all our problems. To my mind it's a rather half-assed fix that fails to address the real problems that make American medicine so expensive. It's better than before, but not great. I doubt America will ever have the balls to do a European style overhaul.
To the contrary, the ACA is poorly written legislation (apparently, not worth even reading before Congress voted on the law), that enlarges an already broken system.
The US had a long standing system of true healthcare insurance. As the government continued to pass mandates, the insurance morphed into coverage. With every mandate, the costs increased. Just about every core promise regarding the ACA has proven to be false. Costs will soar, the scope of coverage will not go as far as promised, and the quality of healthcare will decline.
A European-style overhaul would require answering some basic, tough questions.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:13 AM   #58
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I think we actually would have stood a better chance of getting there if the ACA had not passed.
Yeah, the ACA is kind of like the DOMA of health care reform.
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:14 AM   #59
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The US had a long standing system of true healthcare insurance. As the government continued to pass mandates, the insurance morphed into coverage.
I'm not familiar with this. Could you elaborate?
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:19 AM   #60
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The question was: police and fire are "socialized" services, shouldn't healthcare be fully socialized as well. I tried to point out it was apples to oranges, not suggest the CDC should function as our healthcare system. I would reject the notion that “if government provides (a), then it should provide (b), (c) and (d).

No you didn't. You set up an entirely false analogy and were called out on it.



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To the contrary, the ACA is poorly written legislation (apparently, not worth even reading before Congress voted on the law), that enlarges an already broken system.
The US had a long standing system of true healthcare insurance. As the government continued to pass mandates, the insurance morphed into coverage. With every mandate, the costs increased. Just about every core promise regarding the ACA has proven to be false. Costs will soar, the scope of coverage will not go as far as promised, and the quality of healthcare will decline.
A European-style overhaul would require answering some basic, tough questions.


Seems CA has had a different experience than the horrors you describe, where insurers expect to chat significantly lower than expected premiums.

GOP run states can refuse to set up exchanges and expand Medicare all they want, their own citizens will suffer so they can be used as "examples" of a supposed failure -- meanwhile states like CA, and MA, will enjoy full medical coverage and the declining costs associated with a citizenry 100% insured.
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