A Trial in Philadelphia

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

Conceding this point would be a great start for our conservative posters on the forum.

The conservatism that undergirds the legislation is a fact that I can certainly recognize. I can also certainly recognize that the Akins of the world are idiots; so can voters, who turned those loons out of office pretty quickly, and good for them.

As someone who, as I said earlier, considers himself privately pro-life but publicly realistic, I realize that abortion is an unfortunate and sometimes tragic medical necessity. As a result, I don't think it's constructive to label people on the left a baby-killer, the same way I don't think it's constructive to label people on the right woman-haters. Judging the motivation of legislators as a result, for me, holds about the same weight as the slippery-slope argument.

[martha]

If you look at it carefully, the Texas bill is a job-killer. We know that Republicans hate over-regulation of private business and job-killing legislation (just look at the RNC website), so how they can sponsor a bill that would essentially close down 30+ employment sites due to intrusive government regulation is confusing.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

Judging the motivation of legislators as a result, for me, holds about the same weight as the slippery-slope argument.

Except that legislative intent is one of the main things that is considered when legally evaluating a piece of legislation!

If motivations of legislators no longer matter, then that would be news to people like INDY who are strict constructionists.

[martha]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

privately pro-life

A lot of pro-choice people are this to, Nathan. Don't think this applies only to you.

As for being "publicly realistic", restricting access to legal abortion is killing women, plain and simple. Like I said, go look at some information about emergency care for women before Roe. I know you've stated before that what happened in the past doesn't concern you, but if you are really as concerned for the safety of women as you (and Rick Perry) insist, that information may be something you want to take a look at.

[Irvine511]

Don't have too much to add other than noting some of the deliberately selected words in regards to this medical procedure -- "business." Also, "record profits."

It seems to be increasingly important to portray reproductive health as really just a massive industry that seeks to push vulnerable women into having an abortion because its good for their bottom line.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Don't have too much to add other than noting some of the deliberately selected words in regards to this medical procedure -- "business." Also, "record profits."

It seems to be increasingly important to portray reproductive health as really just a massive industry that seeks to push vulnerable women into having an abortion because its good for their bottom line.

Again, you're choosing binary thinking. PP is a fairly profitable large business, with last-reported revenues of a billion-plus dollars and profits of $150M. Ordinarily such a business requires some significant government oversight, especially given the present and looming healthcare overhauls. I don't have a problem with PP getting a higher level of scrutiny, nor abortion-providers. I certainly don't consider myself anti-woman simply because I believe in strong regulation; I have three daughters, and if any one of them chose to have an abortion, I would want them to have the best possible medical care -- even if it involved driving two or three hours to a compliant clinic as opposed to a half-hour for a sub-standard one.

Again, binary, either/or thinking keeps us from actually being able to engage on this issue.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

even if it involved driving two or three hours to a compliant clinic as opposed to a half-hour for a sub-standard one.

Again, binary, either/or thinking keeps us from actually being able to engage on this issue.

Yes.

[Irvine511]

But in Texas, it could be 8-9 hours. Meaning one has to take 1-2 days off work, and pay for a hotel, and meals. And slid you don't work you don't get paid, or get fired.

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

The conservatism that undergirds the legislation is a fact that I can certainly recognize. I can also certainly recognize that the Akins of the world are idiots; so can voters, who turned those loons out of office pretty quickly, and good for them.

As someone who, as I said earlier, considers himself privately pro-life but publicly realistic, I realize that abortion is an unfortunate and sometimes tragic medical necessity. As a result, I don't think it's constructive to label people on the left a baby-killer, the same way I don't think it's constructive to label people on the right woman-haters.

Originally Posted by anitram

Except that legislative intent is one of the main things that is considered when legally evaluating a piece of legislation!

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by Pearl

I also think it is difficult to be in the middle about this issue. I was never gung-ho about abortion because I do agree that it is a human life, even at 3 months because the fetus is moving around by then. But it was the ignorant and fearful actions from the right that made me side strongly with the pro-choice supporters. Before, I was reluctant to say that I was uneasy with abortion because some on the pro-choice would get all nasty and say I wasn't a real woman and I was against my "sisters". Honestly, I think those kinds of feminists and pro-abortion supporters have deeper issues rather than insisting a woman deserves dominion over her body.

I think probably the majority of people in this country feel the way you do, maybe shading to the left or right to a degree but more less on the same page.

Perhaps the problem is that the public debate is controlled by extremists on both sides and somehow they've bamboozled us all in to believing that we have to be either in one camp or the other.

Originally Posted by AliEnvy

Honestly, I think deeper than a win/lose stance lies the unwillingness for each side to face its own hypocrisy about the sanctity of life.

No one is comfortable with the taking of human life and agrees it is wrong. Yet the notion that it is acceptable in circumstances of self-defense is just about universal.

Excellent point. Even the hard-core Catholic doctrine which is anti-death penalty, anti-contraception, anti-abortion, pro-help-the poor, still doesn't take it as far as being strictly pacifist.

[Irvine511]

How can one be a pro-choice extremist?

[nbcrusader]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

How can one be a pro-choice extremist?

Probably depends on when one grants the unborn child rights worthy of protection.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

But in Texas, it could be 8-9 hours. Meaning one has to take 1-2 days off work, and pay for a hotel, and meals. And slid you don't work you don't get paid, or get fired.

That's a really wrenching position to be in. To me, doesn't it then behoove the clinics who want to provide this service to make sure that they're corresponding with all standards?

Again, the TX law would require the 38 non-compliant clinics to become as compliant as the 6 that would remain open.

How many clinics permanently shut down in PA when they raised their standards?

[martha]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

How can one be a pro-choice extremist?

When you kill doctors and nurses in the name of "pro-life"?

Oh wait....

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

How can one be a pro-choice extremist?

Originally Posted by Pearl

I was reluctant to say that I was uneasy with abortion because some on the pro-choice would get all nasty and say I wasn't a real woman and I was against my "sisters".

When I was talking extremists I wasn't even talking about the people that go the extremes like Martha mentioned. I was talking about the people who brook no compromise of any sort and view the other side as "baby killers" or "woman haters."

[martha]

Originally Posted by nathan1977

I can also certainly recognize that the Akins of the world are idiots; so can voters, who turned those loons out of office pretty quickly, and good for them.

The thing is, disassociating yourself from Akins is one thing, but many anti-choice people like to think they make an exception in rape cases. The problem is that none of them can spell out exactly how that would work.

[martha]

I think many pro-choice people understand the awfulness of abortion because we know people who've gone though it and how agonizing it was for them. I think that if many "pro-life" people knew how many of their acquaintances had gone through it, they'd be a little more understanding.

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

How can one be a pro-choice extremist?

Alisha Snow's testimony might qualify her?

http://m.weeklystandard.com/blogs/vi...on_712198.html

[nathan1977]

Originally Posted by martha

I think many pro-choice people understand the awfulness of abortion because we know people who've gone though it and how agonizing it was for them. I think that if many "pro-life" people knew how many of their acquaintances had gone through it, they'd be a little more understanding.

I agree that the power of relationships and experiences can change hearts and minds. This goes both ways, too -- Norma McCorvey being a prominent example.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

When I was talking extremists I wasn't even talking about the people that go the extremes like Martha mentioned. I was talking about the people who brook no compromise of any sort and view the other side as "baby killers" or "woman haters."

Ok, that's fair.