2012 Conventions; Tampa & Charlotte

[anitram]

So you agree that Paul Ryan lied then, just as Bill Clinton did?

It's not lying, it's "intentionally twisted interpretations."

If by blatant lies you mean intentionally twisted interpretations, yes, I'm unbothered.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Let me ask you something, were the signers of the Declaration of Indepence shoving religion down the throat of "everyone else's[/B] personal religious, spiritual, or ethical humanistic views," with "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"?

"Creator" can be open to interpretation ?

 

[INDY500]

It's not lying, it's "intentionally twisted interpretations."

Did Paul Ryan lie about the closing automobile factory? Are you sure?

I can personally vouch for the fact Paul Ryan didn't lie about Obamacare's Medicare cuts. In fact, ask any Medicare provider about the reimbursement rate cuts coming next year.

I don't even remember the other "lies."

 

[INDY500]

"Creator" can be open to interpretation ?

Pretty sure "God" is too.

 

[INDY500]

Joe Biden literally said "literally"... a bazillion times.

 

[anitram]

I don't even remember the other "lies."

I'll have to get back to you after I'm done running a sub-3 hour marathon.

 

[anitram]

My fiance's comment: "Obama is a leader and Romney is your boss that you hate."

 

[corianderstem]

zomg etc U2 song etc

I need to watch for the audience shots - a friend of mine left our company this year to go work for the re-election campaign, and a coworker said she thought she caught her in the crowd last night.

This is the first speech I'm watching, just so I don't have to sit there tomorrow waffling about whether I want to take 45 minutes or whatever to watch it on YouTube.

 

[kingofsorrow]

zomg etc U2 song etc

i know!!!!!!!!!

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Pretty sure "God" is too.

Yeah. But "creator" doesn't have to relate to anything religious at all, so non-religious people can accept that more easily. "God" can be open to intepretation, yes, but its interpretations will always be religious in nature somehow.

(For the record, I don't personally get hung up on or offended by any allusions to religion in our founding documents. But I do also think that making references to religion in documents doesn't automatically mean that that's a sign our country was founded on a specific religion's beliefs and that we should run our country by said religion's beliefs.)

 

[INDY500]

It's 11 PM, he's still talking, and President Obama has already introduced on stage more than enough straw men to fill the now empty Bank of America Panther stadium.

"Over and over again we're told by our opponents that bigger tax cuts and fewer regulations are the only way to go and that since government can't do everything it should do almost nothing."

Give me a break.

 

[digitize]

I'll just say you don't seem to hold Bill Clinton to the same standard as Paul Ryan when it comes to "lies."

Because there weren't as many?

 

[digitize]

I can personally vouch for the fact Paul Ryan didn't lie about Obamacare's Medicare cuts. In fact, ask any Medicare provider about the reimbursement rate cuts coming next year.

That wasn't a lie. The deceptive part was the fact that Ryan's budget would do more or less the same. Oh, and then gradually drive Medicare into uselessness for those under 55 (you know, the demographic that isn't an enormous component of the GOP base and receiving pork for it).

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

It's 11 PM, he's still talking, and President Obama has already introduced on stage more than enough straw men to fill the now empty Bank of America Panther stadium.

"Over and over again we're told by our opponents that bigger tax cuts and fewer regulations are the only way to go and that since government can't do everything it should do almost nothing."

Give me a break.

You mean that isn't the message the Republicans have been sending?

 

[INDY500]

You mean that isn't the message the Republicans have been sending?

No, and neither is the next sentence in the president's speech:

"You can't afford health insurance... hope that you don't get sick."

Oh, I feel better now.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

No, and neither is the next sentence in the president's speech:

"You can't afford health insurance... hope that you don't get sick."

Oh, I feel better now.

So what is their message, then? 'Cause I've yet to hear anything from them other than that we need tax cuts for the "job creators" (rich), and they complain constantly about the idea of more regulation. And they often seem to talk about how the government fails on a constant basis (again, except for when it comes to social issues, of course. Then the government should be getting right in there and controlling everything).

And they may not come right out and say that about healthcare, but that's pretty much what it's come down to. I've mentioned before that I don't have any health insurance at all. So I'd best try and stay as healthy as I can, otherwise, I'm kind of screwed, aren't I?

 

[trojanchick99]

Loved the President's speech. Like Clinton's it was policy heavy which contrasted nicely the dearth of policy discussion in the RNC speeches. How incredibly lucky are we to hear two of the best ever orators on consecutive nights?

 

[Diemen]

It's quite interesting how variable your concern over the truth is, Indy. Well, not variable, really, as it consistently crops up when its in response to statements made by those of the opposing political viewpoint, and is conspicuously absent in response to those who share your viewpoint.

 

[INDY500]

Quick, what was one specific in the president's speech.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Meant to say earlier, I will make one critique about the Democratic convention-the whole "aye/nay" thing about adding the God stuff back in from yesterday? That was kind of hilarious and sad all at the same time.

 

[dazzledbylight]

1) This week is the Democratic National Convention so it wasn't "Uber Right Wing Republicans" trying to reinstate God into the Democratic Party Platform, it was fellow Democrats.

2) The religion being shoved down the throats of the booing Democrats was as follows: “we need a government that stands up for the hopes, values and interests of working people and gives everyone willing to work hard the chance to make the most of their God-given potential.”

Would you boo that dazzled?

Let me ask you something, were the signers of the Declaration of Indepence shoving religion down the throat of "everyone else's[/B] personal religious, spiritual, or ethical humanistic views," with "We hold these truths to be self-evide, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"?

1> Hhmmm I think i may have made a mistake in terms of context/chronology that this happened. If the booing incident was in reference to when they added God into the Party Platform's planks.......then I definately made a mistake.

Then the booing was probably coming from Secular Humanists or Atheists objecting to it's inclusion into the Platform.

And I still stand by the larger issue of Uber-Rightwing Religious Christians trying to shove their version of God ( and equivalents in Catholicism etc) down other Religeous, Spiritual, or Atheisict people's throats and try to turn America into a Theocracy.


2> I am not an Atheist, I am a Spiritual Person but my concept of what "God" is way diferent that what I grew up as a half Eastern-European Catholic was taught to believe (or the 3 Mono-theistic religions believe). So (sorry, Irvine) I do not bristle at the term the way many S-H or A's do.

And I sometimes may side with certain things that S-H & A's
point out/object to.

As to our Founding Fathers.....

My point 2 would partialy cover that. Also most of theFF's were Diests. If I remember the defintion correctly a deist believes there is a Creator that made our world, set it in motion and all the others (plus te rest of our universe) etc BUT then left Humankind on Earth to deal with Life and each other themselves. "He" exited Earth's stage for good.

Some of them if wot all became learned men and undsertood the ? Internicine Wars that bloodied Europe, and vowed not to impose any Goverment sanctioned religion here in America.

I think that covers all your points/questions.


PS i remember a pretty long time ago hearing that one of the FF may have been a Druid whether at the time of them being aFF or maybe being raised that way.


haven't thought about that in a long time!
Will ggl!

 

[dazzledbylight]

zomg etc U2 song etc

I need to watch for the audience shots - a friend of mine left our company this year to go work for the re-election campaign, and a coworker said she thought she caught her in the crowd last night.

This is the first speech I'm watching, just so I don't have t

]

oooooo a u2 song/instrumental section was played?

Wow very cool for your friend!!

I've done local campaigning in the past.

 

[dazzledbylight]

It's 11 PM, he's still talking, and President Obama has already introduced on stage more than enough straw men to fill the now empty Bank of America Panther stadium.

"Over and over again we're told by our opponents that bigger tax cuts and fewer regulations are the only way to go and that since government can't do everything it should do almost nothing."

Give me a break.

well if that statment isn't true then what is?

BEFORE you answer that let me add that that statement is true much of the time. The other element/aspect I'd add in is that from what i've heard it that RWR expect Charaties and Churches to help fill the gap in certain areas.

 

[dazzledbylight]

You mean that isn't the message the Republicans have been sending?

maybe we need our ears cleaned, ML!

 

[PhilsFan]

INDY, I am going to sum up my thoughts in one concise statement:

You are too intelligent to support Mitt Romney's asinine, flagrantly inaccurate bullshit.

 

[Popmartijn]

I'll just say you don't seem to hold Bill Clinton to the same standard as Paul Ryan when it comes to "lies."

The difference is, Paul Ryan was telling blatant lies, whereas Bill Clinton was basically mentioning correct facts.
FactCheck.org : Ryan’s VP Spin

Paul Ryan’s acceptance speech at the Republican convention contained several false claims and misleading statements. Delegates cheered as the vice presidential nominee:

Accused President Obama’s health care law of funneling money away from Medicare “at the expense of the elderly.” In fact, Medicare’s chief actuary says the law “substantially improves” the system’s finances, and Ryan himself has embraced the same savings.
Accused Obama of doing “exactly nothing” about recommendations of a bipartisan deficit commission — which Ryan himself helped scuttle.
Claimed the American people were “cut out” of stimulus spending. Actually, more than a quarter of all stimulus dollars went for tax relief for workers.
Faulted Obama for failing to deliver a 2008 campaign promise to keep a Wisconsin plant open. It closed less than a month before Obama took office.
Blamed Obama for the loss of a AAA credit rating for the U.S. Actually, Standard & Poor’s blamed the downgrade on the uncompromising stands of both Republicans and Democrats.

And when he wasn’t attacking Obama, Ryan was puffing up the record of his running mate, Mitt Romney, on taxes and unemployment.

FactCheck.org : Our Clinton Nightmare

Former President Bill Clinton’s stem-winding nomination speech was a fact-checker’s nightmare: lots of effort required to run down his many statistics and factual claims, producing little for us to write about.

Republicans will find plenty of Clinton’s scorching opinions objectionable. But with few exceptions, we found his stats checked out.

 

[Popmartijn]

Did Paul Ryan lie about the closing automobile factory? Are you sure?

Yes, he did. As I stated in my previous post, Ryan "[f]aulted Obama for failing to deliver a 2008 campaign promise to keep a Wisconsin plant open. It closed less than a month before Obama took office."
So yes, the automobile factory got closed, but not that Obama was at fault here.

 

[BoMac]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: it never ceases to amaze me the lengths that people go to to defend something (or someone), because doing otherwise would (in their minds) contradict or completely shatter their worldview.

It's completely okay to call out your own for saying or doing things they shouldn't be. It's how improvement and - gasp! - progress can be achieved, something that will benefit people of all political stripes for the long term.

 

[anitram]

John Kerry made this point:

And let me say something else. No nominee for president should ever fail in the midst of a war to pay tribute to our troops overseas in his acceptance speech. Mitt Romney was talking about America. They are on the front lines every day defending America, and they deserve our thanks.

Bill Kristol has criticized Romney for the same but generally on the right there have been crickets. Can you imagine the type of slander that would have come Obama's way, or any Democrat's way, if they were to completely ignore the troops? We'd be hearing all about how this is another sign of them hating America and hating the troops.

 

[trojanchick99]

Quick, what was one specific in the president's speech.

I don't know.... adding 20,000 science and math teachers? Or there's pulling out of Afghanistan in 2014 (which was already announced), rejecting the Republican notion that cutting taxes even more while increasing defense will somehow magically grow the economy.

Look, Clinton and Obama absolutely relied on numbers and actual policies, while Ryan and Romney were intentionally vague. I get it, they don't want to be held to specifics if by some miracle they are elected, still the contrast between the DNC and RNC was stark in that regard.