2008 U.S. Presidential Election: Vice-Presidential Debate

[bonoman]

The shout out to the school kids was, by far, the worst moment of the debate.

I had to do a double take.

"no, she's not doing a shout out. Oh man, she even called it a shout out."

That was my exact response to my buddy.

 

[Irvine511]

still... obama will need to fuck up to lose this election. the democrats uncanny ability to shoot themselves in the face is the only reason why this thing is even still interesting.

i do agree.

but he seems so much more levelheaded and impervious to hysteria, that maybe, just maybe, the democrats won't fall on their own swords.

 

[bonoman]

i do agree.

but he seems so much more levelheaded and impervious to hysteria, that maybe, just maybe, the democrats won't fall on their own swords.

I think he is far more in control of his campaign then some people give him credit for. It seems he has shaped his message to what he belives are his best traits.

I don't forsee a meltdown from Obama. There could always be something out of his control. But even then he has shown great calm and stature when dealing with adversery ie. The speech he gave on race relations after the Wright scandal.

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

all he needs is a little help from Howard Dean:

YouTube - Howies End

 

[corianderstem]

"Say it ain't so, Joe, there you go again pointing backwards again. You preferenced [sic] your whole comment with the Bush administration. Now doggone it, let's look ahead and tell Americans what we have to plan to do for them in the future. You mentioned education and I'm glad you did. I know education you are passionate about with your wife being a teacher for 30 years, and god bless her. Her reward is in heaven, right? I say, too, with education, America needs to be putting a lot more focus on that and our schools have got to be really ramped up in terms of the funding that they are deserving. Teachers needed to be paid more. I come from a house full of school teachers. My grandma was, my dad who is in the audience today, he's a schoolteacher, had been for many years. My brother, who I think is the best schoolteacher in the year, and here's a shout-out to all those third graders at Gladys Wood Elementary School, you get extra credit for watching the debate!"

that was the moment I was trying to reference in my first comment during the debates last night. It just drove me crazy.

 

[anitram]

It was particularly awkward to use that "her reward is in heaven" line when Joe Biden's first wife is deceased but truth be told I'm assuming Palin knew none of this given her complete disregard when she launched into a "as a mother..." schtick in the face of a single father.

So I'm gonna chalk it up to ignorance on her part. Again.

 

[phillyfan26]

If you want to talk about Sting, start another thread.

Can we do this? I mean, every single time STING is criticized because his posting style makes discourse practically impossible, he angrily states that this isn't a thread about STING (even though the post is about how STING is disrupting the thread) and dismisses all critiques.

I'd personally love a STING discussion thread, just so he doesn't have an excuse to stick his fingers in his ears every time someone critiques him.

 

[randhail]

I'd be more impressed with Palin if she was running for school committee or even was my kid's principle, but certainly not as vice president. It's a shame that intelligence is looked down upon as being "elitist" while folksy charm can get you to the top and into the hearts of so many people.

 

[yolland]

Can we do this?

No.

 

[corianderstem]

I'd be more impressed with Palin if she was running for school committee or even was my kid's principle, but certainly not as vice president. It's a shame that intelligence is looked down upon as being "elitist" while folksy charm can get you to the top and into the hearts of so many people.

Yes. This. I certainly wouldn't be anti-folksy if that went hand in hand with other qualities and qualifications, but when it seems to be the sole reason some voters like a candidate ..... that just makes me feel all stabby.

 

[onebloodonelife]

Weren't some people saying that they thought Minnesota was going to go to McCain? I'm not really worried at all about Wisconsin, from what I've heard its usually pretty solidly Democratic. Pennsylvania, I think, is still somewhat up in the air. I would definitely say Obama has a much better chance of winning it than McCain, though. Do you think Obama has a strong lead in all 3 states? I always have a hard time finding believable state-by-state polls.

I don't anticipate Minnesota going for McCain; we haven't gone Republican in a presidential election since Nixon. Wisconsin won't either, they're usually behind Democratic candidates too.

 

[ImOuttaControl]

I don't anticipate Minnesota going for McCain; we haven't gone Republican in a presidential election since Nixon. Wisconsin won't either, they're usually behind Democratic candidates too.

I think it possibly could go McCain. I live in northern MN, a traditionally very blue part of the state with heavy union membership, and I have heard quite a few "conservative democrats" say they are considering McCain because, basically, the democratic party of today doesn't represent the values of rural America.

Either way, I think this election will be much closer than polls are currently showing.

 

[Slipstream]

I just watched the debate. Joe Biden won it easily. He was a class act that's well informed on the issues and could answer the questions with ease. He explained how Obama/Biden would be different from 8 years of disgrace from the Bush regime.

Sarah Palin did better than what people thought she'd do, but she was still like a freshman in college when compared to Biden. She was elusive with questions repeatedly and never explained how McCain/Palin would be different from the Bush regime.

What I gathered from the debate.

Joe Biden - I learned something.

Sarah Palin - "Wall Street, maverick, energy, Alaska, nook-u-ler". Repeat.

 

[Irvine511]

why do rural voters feel as if they need to have their "values" represented? what are those values? and why are they more important than their interests? is it more important to have someone with your "values" than it is to have someone who's competent and knows how to govern? why do rural voters demand that a candidate do something embarrassing (for a northeastern intellectual who vacations on Nantucket like Kerry) like pretend to go duck hunting? most people in this country live in cities or in their immediate suburbs, not in rural America. and you don't see urban voters demanding that candidates attend a poetry slam or go to the theater or talk about the joys of asian fusion cuisine. i never hear anyone address the skyrocketing rents in DC or NYC or Boston. perhaps i am concerned about the price of jicama.

what gives, rural America? why do you need such coddling? can't you just take a look at your wallet, take a look at your job situation, take a look at foreign policy, and not vote about whether you "like" someone or that they share your accent or that they say "gosh" and "darn it"?

pray tell, rural America. there actually aren't that many of you. why does everything have to be about you?

 

[anitram]

pray tell, rural America. there actually aren't that many of you. why does everything have to be about you?

Well we have a poster in here repeatedly addressing the rest of us as Little San Francisco, so perhaps he can explain to us how it is that we're not "real" like Sarah and how our values are also fake.

 

[Irvine511]

Well we have a poster in here repeatedly addressing the rest of us as Little San Francisco, so perhaps he can explain to us how it is that we're not "real" like Sarah and how our values are also fake.

for real. there are 8 million people in NYC. there are more people in little old DC -- a fairly small city, btw -- than there are in Alaska or Wyoming.

i'm not real because i have a college degree? because i have a media job? because i eat healthy foods and do things like Bikram Yoga? i don't count? i should just move to Paris or Berlin?

i was produced by this country just as much as those who claim to be authentic non-San Franciscans (is this covert homophobia? like when people say "new york" when they don't want to actually say "jewish"?)

tell me rural America.

 

[corianderstem]

why do rural voters feel as if they need to have their "values" represented? what are those values? and why are they more important than their interests? is it more important to have someone with your "values" than it is to have someone who's competent and knows how to govern? why do rural voters demand that a candidate do something embarrassing (for a northeastern intellectual who vacations on Nantucket like Kerry) like pretend to go duck hunting? most people in this country live in cities or in their immediate suburbs, not in rural America. and you don't see urban voters demanding that candidates attend a poetry slam or go to the theater or talk about the joys of asian fusion cuisine. i never hear anyone address the skyrocketing rents in DC or NYC or Boston. perhaps i am concerned about the price of jicama.

what gives, rural America? why do you need such coddling? can't you just take a look at your wallet, take a look at your job situation, take a look at foreign policy, and not vote about whether you "like" someone or that they share your accent or that they say "gosh" and "darn it"?

pray tell, rural America. there actually aren't that many of you. why does everything have to be about you?

I'm in love with this post.

 

[Irvine511]

I'm in love with this post.

it's such transparent reverse snobbery. Palin is kind of the epitome of that.

she's up there saying, "no, see, urban homo, i'm actually better than you. you might be able to spell and construct a coherent sentence, but i can shoot a moose."

 

[anitram]

I already asked INDY to define elitism for me and he didn't so I don't expect we'll hear an answer.

But the more degrees you have and especially if they are from high ranking institutions, and GOD FORBID the Ivy leagues, that disqualifies you from being a real person.

 

[yolland]

tell me rural America.

most of those voters actually live in suburbs and small cities

 

[ImOuttaControl]

most of those voters actually live in suburbs and small cities

Well being that the last few posts were in response to my perspective from rural, MN, I will assure you that my town of 2000 people along the north shore of lake superior to be a pretty rural area.


Irvine, I've read your posts for quite some time and I know that you are far left and you're not moving toward the center anytime soon, so I will waste little time trying to explain rural values to you. Basically, they have a lot to do with "guns, god, and religion." They have to do a lot with personal responsibility and not waiting around for the government to solve problems through social welfare programs. They have to do with, according to a lifetime democrat-voting colleague who will be voting for McCain/Palin this year--that there is an abortion litmus test in todays democratic party that turns many people away.

As for the "elitist" question that some people have raised, I would say it's tossed around towards people who are condescending like the only way someone might be conservative is if they're some uneducated hick. (which your comments about "rural values" does seem a bit condescending.) Being that this site is extremely liberal, I doubt many on here see how condescending they can be towards people in little town America. A recent example is all the sudden bashing of anything "folksy.
The "betcha" and that sort of thing is in the common language where I live. Are we all too uneducated to be elected to high office because of the way we talk?

Simply put, people like Obama or Kerry are too far to the left for many in "rural america" to stomach.

 

[indra]

why do rural voters feel as if they need to have their "values" represented? what are those values? and why are they more important than their interests? is it more important to have someone with your "values" than it is to have someone who's competent and knows how to govern? why do rural voters demand that a candidate do something embarrassing (for a northeastern intellectual who vacations on Nantucket like Kerry) like pretend to go duck hunting? most people in this country live in cities or in their immediate suburbs, not in rural America. and you don't see urban voters demanding that candidates attend a poetry slam or go to the theater or talk about the joys of asian fusion cuisine. i never hear anyone address the skyrocketing rents in DC or NYC or Boston. perhaps i am concerned about the price of jicama.

what gives, rural America? why do you need such coddling? can't you just take a look at your wallet, take a look at your job situation, take a look at foreign policy, and not vote about whether you "like" someone or that they share your accent or that they say "gosh" and "darn it"?

pray tell, rural America. there actually aren't that many of you. why does everything have to be about you?

Not all rural people are like this. Just like not all urban people are sanctimonious assholes.

 

[ImOuttaControl]

Not all rural people are like this. Just like not all urban people are sanctimonious assholes.

Of course not and I would never say that urban people are sactimonious assholes....someone asked about rural values and I briefly tried to explain the things people in my rural are believe in. I teach, am in a union, and obviously work with many democrats and a few republicans. I tried to list things that I've heard my colleagues say...nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Bluer White]

pray tell, rural America. there actually aren't that many of you. why does everything have to be about you?

Let's make them rurals count for 3/5's of a vote.

 

[corianderstem]

I only dislike folksy when I don't believe a word of it. I don't buy it coming from Sarah Palin. That might be the way she is in real life, but it doesn't read as genuine to me. Maybe that's just my cynicism of politicians running for national office.

I guess the whole thing just bugs me as part of the whole us vs. them thing. Why does it have to be this whole "Joe Six Pack" vs. "Liberal Elites"? Who decides what an average American is, anyway?

I'm an average American. You're an average American. The average American lives in New York City and the average American lives in Marshfield, Wisconsin. The average American reads Herman Melville and the average American watches America's Funniest Home Videos.

I get caught up in the whole us v them thing as well, and even falling into generalizations, which I'm not proud of.

But when the politicians are implying that "Joe Six Pack" is somehow better than those who aren't "Joe Six Pack," it ain't helping any damn thing because we are all the damned average Americans.

We are all Joe Six Pack, dammit.

 

[ImOuttaControl]

I only dislike folksy when I don't believe a word of it. I don't buy it coming from Sarah Palin. That might be the way she is in real life, but it doesn't read as genuine to me. Maybe that's just my cynicism of politicians running for national office.

I guess the whole thing just bugs me as part of the whole us vs. them thing. Why does it have to be this whole "Joe Six Pack" vs. "Liberal Elites"? Who decides what an average American is, anyway?

I'm an average American. You're an average American. The average American lives in New York City and the average American lives in Marshfield, Wisconsin. The average American reads Herman Melville and the average American watches America's Funniest Home Videos.

I get caught up in the whole us v them thing as well, and even falling into generalizations, which I'm not proud of.

But when the politicians are implying that "Joe Six Pack" is somehow better than those who aren't "Joe Six Pack," it ain't helping any damn thing because we are all the damned average Americans.

We are all Joe Six Pack, dammit.

Agree completely. Both sides have become pretty good at labeling/demonizing the other side in recent years. (and I do mean BOTH sides of the isle)

 

[corianderstem]

 

[Strongbow]

i was produced by this country just as much as those who claim to be authentic non-San Franciscans (is this covert homophobia? like when people say "new york" when they don't want to actually say "jewish"?)

If you take a look at are little FYM poll, the percentage in here voting for Obama matches the percentage in San Francisco County that voted for Kerry in 2004. I could be wrong, but I think if you look at all the political issues, FYM would be very similar to San Francisco in terms of the ratio of liberals to conservatives.

 

[Strongbow]

I just watched the debate. Joe Biden won it easily. He was a class act that's well informed on the issues and could answer the questions with ease.

What I gathered from the debate.

Joe Biden - I learned something.

Sarah Palin - "Wall Street, maverick, energy, Alaska, nook-u-ler". Repeat.

Really?

What do you think of Joe Bidens words below:

When we kicked -- along with France, we kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon, I said and Barack said, "Move NATO forces in there. Fill the vacuum, because if you don't know -- if you don't, Hezbollah will control it."

Now what's happened? Hezbollah is a legitimate part of the government in the country immediately to the north of Israel.

I hope you didn't pay attention to the above because it is flat out WRONG!

The United States and France NEVER kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon! Biden never introduced a resolution to deploy NATO forces to Lebanon. Hezbollah was already apart of the government in Lebanon long before Bush was elected President.

Barack Obama picked Joe Biden because of his "knowledge and experience". Ironic that if Sarah Palin had made the same mistake, people in here would be foaming at the mouth, but Joe Biden makes an out of this world mistake like this, and he gets a free pass, despite the fact that he has been in the Senate for 35 years to Sarah Palin's 35 days on the campaign trail.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

I doubt Sarah Palin would have made the same mistake, that being probably the first time she'd ever even heard of Hezbollah.