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Old 09-17-2008, 02:33 PM   #1
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Larry changing cymbal companies?

GIVE THE DRUMMER SOME? After all... it IS all about the drums!

http://media.u2.com/flash/highlights...ng_april08.swf

Interesting bit about this video is that Larry is playing Zildjian (brand) and not Paiste (brand) cymbals. He's been a Paiste endorser for most of his career. Wonder if Zildjian sent some over to try to win over Larry as an endorser?
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Old 09-18-2008, 07:25 PM   #2
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maybe he's just after a new sound. I think zildjian are a better brand when it comes to cymbals
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Old 09-18-2008, 11:53 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by rattleandhumgir View Post
maybe he's just after a new sound. I think zildjian are a better brand when it comes to cymbals
He may have been looking for new sounds. Zildjian might have sent over the cymbals to court him as a potential endorser.

I respectfully disagree w/your assessment that Zildjian are a better cymbal than Paiste. And that coming from me, a drummer that has played Zildjian cymbals for 20+ years.

Paiste makes a great product. The 'holy trilogy' of cymbal companies would be Zildjian, Paiste and Sabian. All three make great cymbals.
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Old 09-23-2008, 04:23 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Edge_Orchestra View Post
He may have been looking for new sounds. Zildjian might have sent over the cymbals to court him as a potential endorser.

I respectfully disagree w/your assessment that Zildjian are a better cymbal than Paiste. And that coming from me, a drummer that has played Zildjian cymbals for 20+ years.

Paiste makes a great product. The 'holy trilogy' of cymbal companies would be Zildjian, Paiste and Sabian. All three make great cymbals.
I second that. Paiste is no better than Zildjian, they're just totally different in sound. I personally love the Paistes that Larry uses (or used...) and bought the whole set myself.
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Old 09-23-2008, 11:32 PM   #5
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I second that. Paiste is no better than Zildjian, they're just totally different in sound. I personally love the Paistes that Larry uses (or used...) and bought the whole set myself.
Larry's used Paiste brand for ages... since the October tour. Although, I think he had some Zildjian and some Paiste during the Boy tour.

He's used the Paiste Signature Series since they were first released in 1989.

It was interesting to see him use Zildjian's in that video clip. Odd in a way though, as most Zildjian's are great but pretty traditional jazz and pop sounding cymbals. The "Z" line being more metal.

I'd think that if he were truly experimenting with new sounds, he'd try Sabian. They've some pretty interesting and varied types of cymbals.
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Old 10-25-2008, 11:42 AM   #6
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He's used the Paiste Signature Series since they were first released in 1989.

Do you know if he uses those on Achtung Baby? I love the sound of them.
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Old 10-28-2008, 09:28 AM   #7
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Do you know if he uses those on Achtung Baby? I love the sound of them.
Larry did use Paiste Signature Series on Achtung Baby.
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:48 PM   #8
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Another question if you don´t mind.

I´m not a drummer myself, but I have always found dums fascinating. I was wondering, what does Paiste Signature mean? I notice that they don´t have the same Paiste logo on them. It´s like it´s handwritten. What makes them special?
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Old 10-30-2008, 03:54 PM   #9
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Another question if you don´t mind.

I´m not a drummer myself, but I have always found dums fascinating. I was wondering, what does Paiste Signature mean? I notice that they don´t have the same Paiste logo on them. It´s like it´s handwritten. What makes them special?
"Signature" is just the name of that particular series of cymbal. It isn't as though it is a specific endorsement, such as a Yamaha Manu Katche' signature series snare drum.

Larry's played Paiste 'brand' cymbals since around the time of the Boy/October era. He used Paise "Rude" (model) in the War/UF tour era. He's used "Signature" series cymbals since thier inception.

Paiste has many models. "Signature" series is one of thier top of the line models. Models can vary by lathing process or composition - are they hand or machine hammered... various options of manufacture and alloy composition.

Here are some of Paiste's various lines:

Signature

Introduction: 1989
Background: To create the ultimate cymbal sound reflecting typical traditional Paiste characteristics that expand sound horizons beyond 1980’s cymbal program known for 2002, Formula 602 and Sound Creation
Innovation: First series created from patented bronze that was specifically researched and developed for cymbal sounds
Alloy: Patented Signature Bronze
Quality: Professional
Production: Manual craftsmanship • Hand hammering, hand lathing • Proprietary manufacturing methods
Applications: Most volume settings • Live and recording • Wide range of music styles such as Pop, Rock, Hard Rock, Heavy Metal, Funk, R&B, Classic, Avantgarde, Big Band, Country, Blues and Gospel
Users: Professional musicians and enthusiastic drummers, refined drummers and sound specialists with precise requirements that need a fully developed character in their cymbal sound
Sound: Musical, transparent, beautiful, rich, colorful, full, clear, expressive sound • The model range features everything from particularly delicate, well balanced and sensitive to expressive, potent and powerful and projective qualities

Signature „Reflector Finish“

Introduction: 2004
Background: Paiste first pioneered this featured production process with our innovative Reflector Cymbals back in the 1980’s • Unlike modern high speed buffing methods, Paiste Reflector Cymbals employ a proprietary surface treatment technique that generates a smooth, luminous, shimmering finish - without producing high levels of heat, which can substantially alter the natural condition of the bronze metal and dampen the cymbal sound
Sonic Characteristics of the Reflector Finish: Paiste’s Signature Reflector cymbals basically share the same overall sonic parameters, feel and function as corresponding Signature models with a regular lathed finish. The general effect of the Reflector finish on these cymbals is very subtle and may be summarized as follows:
The sonic timbre and color of these instruments is somewhat lower, which makes the cymbals feel a bit darker.
The frequency range is wider due to the lower pitch of the fundamental note and higher overtones at the upper end of the frequency spectrum.
The frequency mix is cooler and cleaner, as the high, middle and lower frequencies are more distinctly layered, due to the less dominant character of the middle layer - the “voice” of the cymbal.
The stick sound and bell character tend to be slightly more distinct and separated, while the Hi-Hat chick sound tends to be a bit softer, warmer and more compact.
The duration of the cymbal’s sustain is relatively similar, however the midrange frequencies fade faster.
The overall feel is substantially the same, except Crashes and Chinas tend to feel a bit softer and more controllable.
Weight, volume range, transient response and dynamic intensity are close to identical.


New Signature

Introduction: 2004
Background: Create a cymbal line that permits absolute artistic freedom in the creation of cymbal sound • Maintain freedom to concentrate fully on the individual sound character of the respective models and therefore perfect liberty of any sound restrictions given by a defined series character
Innovation: The first set “New Signature” cymbals introduced in 2004 was named “Dark Energy” • They unite the fundamental characteristics of the “Signature” and “Traditionals” series, as such they combine depth, a dark character, absolute musicality embracing multilayered harmonics with brilliance, richness and the ability of reaching through
Alloy: Patented Signature Bronze
Quality: Professional
Production: Manual craftsmanship • Hand hammering, hand lathing • Proprietary manufacturing methods
Applications: Quiet to medium loud playing situations • Live and recording • Jazz, Swing, Blues, Latin, R&B, Pop, Country, moderate Rock • Also excellently suitable for acoustic music and classical settings and mallet rolls
Users: Professional musicians, sound enthusiasts, inspired professional drummers, refined musicians that need a fully developed and well balanced character in their cymbals
Sound: Dark, multi-layered, warm, crisp and rich with special emphasis on control, projection, balance and comfort for supreme playing feel

Learn more about the “Mark X” Principle "Mark X” Principle: Throughout the creation of these cymbal sounds with their own character and a defined dynamic function, we also reserve ourselves the liberty to vary on the same principle. We call these variations subsequently “Mark I”, “Mark II” and so on. With making use of this principle we liberate ourselves and are able to research openly by developing completely creative sounds in the world of cymbal making.


Traditionals

Introduction: 1996
Background: Re-created lost cymbal sounds from traditional Blues, Swing, Big Band, Cool Jazz, Be-Bop and Hard Bop era of the 1930’s to the 1960’s
Innovation: First cymbal series to be researched and newly developed to achieve authentic historical, dark, oriental and rich sounds
Alloy: Patented Signature Bronze
Quality: Professional
Production: Manual craftsmanship • Hand hammering, hand lathing • Proprietary manufacturing methods
Applications: Soft to medium loud settings • Live and recording • Classic to modern Jazz, Blues, Swing, Big Band, Country, Funk, Reggae, R&B and Soul as well as Pop and moderate Rock • Also excellently suited for acoustic and vocal-oriented music and percussive playing with sticks, mallets, or hands • Very well suited for classical applications and swelling accents
Users: Professional musicians, inspired professional drummers, enthusiasts, collectors • All players who need warm, traditional sound and soft, responsive feel in their cymbals
Sound: Dark, broad, complex, warm, smoky, oriental and sparkling with special emphasis on volume control, dynamics and stick feel • Some models feature particularly soft, trashy or dirty qualities

Twenty

Introduction: 2007
Background: Our continuous search for new ways to create cymbal sounds from manually malleable metals has taken us back to the primal and archaic sound energy of traditional CuSn20 bronze • From such alloy the Twenty series is made of and combines the Turkish ancient knowledge with the Swiss precision and our time-honored methods • A symbiosis, a completely new blend of sound character
Innovation: To create cymbals of true and dignified quality for highest demands of professional drummers and percussionists
Alloy: CuSn20, also know as “Traditional Bronze”Quality: Professional
Production: Manual craftsmanship exclusively • Hand alloying, hand hammering, hand lathing • Proprietary manufacturing methods
Applications: Medium soft to loud settings • Live and recording • Pop, Blues, Soul, Rock, Jazz, Big Band, R&B, Country, Acoustic Music, percussive settings, classical applications and Latin styles.
Users: Professional drummers, recording artists, studio owners • Sound enthusiasts and collectors.
Sound: Warm, broad, deep, sparkling, dark, oriental, trashy, bright and forceful • Cymbals with a certain raw and untamed sort of a mystical force, yet with the harmony, balance and consistent quality that is a Paiste trademark for decades.

2002

Introduction: 1971
Background: During the 1960’s the developing Beat and Rock music required a cymbal sound to match the new frequencies and volume levels and consequently in 1967 the Giant Beat series was created as response to this demand. • The 2002 was developed 1971 fusing the power of the Giant Beat with the differentiation of the Jazz series Formula 602 • In 2005, Paiste once again makes the 2002 a core series for the future, including the best and most innovative Dimensions models into the newly expanded 2002, thus adding current trend cymbal sound to this venerable line • In the year 2007, the line is further expanded in to the loud genres by adding larger cymbals and the more aggressive “Wild” models
Innovation: First cymbal series fully developed for electronically amplified music
Alloy: CuSn8 Bronze, also known as "2002 Bronze"
Quality: Professional
Production: Manual craftsmanship • Hand hammering, hand lathing • Proprietary manufacturing methods
Applications: Medium soft to very loud settings • Live and recording • Classic Rock, Blues, Punk, Hard Rock, Heavy Metal & most Modern Metal styles, Crossover, Country Rock, Ska, Rockabilly, Funk, R&B, Soul, Gospel and modern hybrids rooted in those styles
Users: Working musicians, enthusiasts • All players who need energy and drive and want their cymbals to cut through the music and superior projection in all musical settings
Sound: Brilliant, clear, warm, strong, musical and very precise with high energy levels and powerful and reliable projection characteristics

RUDE

Introduction: 1980
Background: This is our answer to Heavy Metal and Punk, when extreme presence and volume is necessary • In the year 2005 the series was extended with Thin Crash models, which give the series more control and sophistication • In 2007, Paiste adds “Wild” models for extreme and modern styles to the line
Innovation: First cymbal series without any lathing, featuring uniform thickness and sound engineering to compete with the most extreme mid-range frequencies and volume levels
Alloy: CuSn8 Bronze, also known as “2002 Bronze”Quality: Professional
Production: Manual craftsmanship • Hand hammering • Proprietary manufacturing methods
Applications: Medium loud to extremely loud • Live and recording • Punk, Heavy Metal, Hard Rock, Crossover Styles, Ska, Reggae, Modern Metal derivatives, and contemporary styles rooted in/or similar to those styles
Users: Working musicians, enthusiasts • All players who need raw energy and extreme cutting power and projection without sacrificing musical cymbal sound
Sound: Raw, metallic, powerful, lively, sparkling, bright, icy and energetic with heavy mid-range harmonics and powerful, cutting characteristics

Giant Beat

Introduction: 2005 (Original introduced in 1967)
Background: In the late 50’s Paiste experimented with the CuSn8 bronze alloy and pioneered CuSn8 cymbals in 1963 • In the 60’s the electrified sound generated was groundbreaking and popular music, simply stated, became loud and irreverent • CuSn8 bronze that Paiste worked on turned out to be perfect for the new soundscape with its amplified volume and frequencies • 1967 Paiste launched the Giant Beat cymbals, which are characterized by warmth, strength and brilliance drummers had not known before
Innovation: First cymbal series to be manufactured from the popular CuSn8 Bronze, “2002 Bronze”
Alloy: CuSn8 Bronze, also known as “2002 Bronze”Quality: Professional
Production: Manual craftsmanship • Hand hammering, hand lathing • Proprietary manufacturing methods
Applications: Soft to loud settings • Live and recording • Rock, Blues, Rock’n’Roll, Swing, Country, Garage Rock, British Rock and Pop, Beat
Users: Working musicians, enthusiasts • Drummers eager to re-capture Paiste vintage cymbal sounds from the late 60’s
Sound: Bright and warm with a multilayered, full, dark, glassily splendid presence

For more on Paiste Cymbals...
Paiste: Products

The different alloy, lathing and hammering processes affect the sounds of the cymbals. Paiste makes some cheaper 'stamped' cymbals made from cheaper alloys, the PST line... and for THIS drummers ears, they don't sound nearly as great as a hand or machine hammered Paiste from one of the lines mentioned above.

Stewart Copeland uses Paiste.
John Bonham (Led Zeppelin) Used "Giant Beat" model Paiste's until the advent of the "2002" line.
The same can be said for Nick Mason (Pink Floyd)
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Old 10-30-2008, 04:14 PM   #10
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So what affects the tone of cymbals? Lots of things.
  • What alloy was used.
  • What hammering was used.
  • What lathing was used. Space in lathing. Partial, full or NO lathing?
  • Thickness of cymbal
  • Diameter of cymbal
  • Taper of cymbal body
  • Size, shape and taper of the bell
  • Is the bell lathed or unlathed

It is more complicated than a cymbal 'looks'. It is more than merely 'any ol' piece of metal you hit with a stick'. They are musical instruments with a long history and a science of alloys, shapes and sizes that contribute to the sounds.

The Major players?
Zildjian: (Originally from Turkey and have been making cymbals since 1623!!!!)
Paiste. The first Paiste cymbals were produced in 1906 by Estonian musician Toomas Paiste in his instrument repair shop in Saint Petersburg, Russia, to customer orders. Toomas had served in the Czarist Guard, and retired in 1901 to open a music publishing business and music shop.

The cymbal making aspect of the business expanded with the passing years, despite the disruption of several moves necessitated by war, firstly to Tallinn in Estonia in 1917, where Toomas' son Mihkel Paiste decided to concentrate on cymbal production and export. In 1940 the family and the cymbal making operation moved to Poland, where they continued under extremely difficult conditions, and in 1945 to Germany, and then in 1957 a new headquarters and production facility was established in Switzerland. The business was continued by Mihkel's sons Robert and Toomas, with both the Swiss and German operations as the main manufacturing centres.
Sabian: The company was founded in 1980 in Meductic, New Brunswick, Canada by Robert Zildjian, son of Avedis Zildjian III, the head of the Avedis Zildjian Company. Family tradition had it that the head of the company would pass the company down to the oldest son. After Avedis Zildjian III died in 1979, Armand (who was President of Zildjian at the time) became Chairman of the Board. This led to a family feud and a legal squabble between Robert and Armand, resulting in Robert leaving Zildjian to form the rival Sabian company. The companies continue to be rivals, and are both among the world's most popular cymbal brands.

Up and coming company...
Bosphorus: Bosphorus is a cymbal manufacturer based in İstanbul, Turkey and Kennesaw, a suburb of Atlanta,Georgia, United States.

The factory is located on the Bosphorus Strait and owned by three cymbalsmiths who worked at the Istanbul Cymbals factory until the company split in the 1990's. They were trained by Mehmet Tamdeger, who worked at Zildjian in the 1950's and Agop Tomurcuk who was foreman of Zildjian's factory in Istanbul until its closure in 1978.

The US operation is owned by a trio of drummers, including Jeff Hamilton and Mike Vosbein.

Unlike most modern cymbal manufacturers, Bosphorus produces their cymbals using centuries old traditions, using cast bronze, hand hammering, and lathe.

Each cymbal is unique due to the fact that a single cymbalsmith will hammer a cymbal by hand, striking it thousands of times until it is finished. This process gives the cymbals an "old-world" warmth that some people feel is lacking in modern machine-made cymbals.

There are a few other companies out there... but Zildjian, Paiste and Sabian are considered "The Big Three".


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Old 10-30-2008, 04:19 PM   #11
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Thank you, Edge_Orchestra.

"..top of the line models".. you say eh? So they are more expensive cymbals then. Higher quality.
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Old 10-30-2008, 10:19 PM   #12
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Thank you, Edge_Orchestra.

"..top of the line models".. you say eh? So they are more expensive cymbals then. Higher quality.
Yep, the Paiste Signature line (and that others mentioned earlier) are Paiste's professional lines. There are cheaper machine stamps Paiste models. But when you pay less... you get less. They are cheaper as the materials are cheaper, they are machine stamped - not hand hammered or lathed. This means less labour-intensive and cheaper materials... that is why the have PST (3) Cymbal Sets for equal or less than ONE of the higer quality lines.

Zildjian and Sabian have 'pro' lines that are far better and last longer... and cheaper material / machine stamped cymbals for cheap.

I'm not being an elitist about it. Just putting caution out there. The cheaper models are cheap for a reason: They cost less money but have less life, less quality materials and sound 'crap'.

Instruments are investments. It is better to get one good cymbal instead of 2-4 crap ones. Take the time, save and get something you will love, that sounds great and that you will enjoy for years - not something will hate immediately and will probably warp or break as fast.
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Old 10-31-2008, 02:05 AM   #13
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Zildjian and Sabian have 'pro' lines that are far better and last longer... and cheaper material / machine stamped cymbals for cheap.
Far better than... the Paiste Signature line? I think I may be misunderstanding you.
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Old 10-31-2008, 10:21 AM   #14
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Far better than... the Paiste Signature line? I think I may be misunderstanding you.
I meant that Paiste, Sabian & Zildjian make both budget AND professional gear.

You do get what you pay for. The budget gear doesn't sound great and doesn't hold up as well. I have cymbals that I've had, played, enjoyed and have sounded fantastic for over 25 years.

Would I recommend one brand over another? Paiste, Sabian & Zildjian all make great products.

If you want more traditional or jazz sounding cymbals, Bosphorus would be added to the mix. Zildjian's "K" line is great for more traditional and jazz - dark sounding cymbals.

But one doesn't have to use a 'jazz' or what is traditionally thought of as a 'jazz' or 'rock' or 'metal' style cymbal for that exact type of music. I have used 15" and 17" Zilidjian K's for years for rock alternative music too.

In the end, it's what sounds good to your ears. When I go to buy cymbals, I bring what I already have with me. It is good to see if the one I might want to buy sounds good with what I have. Most shops have a kit set up in thier cymbal rooms. You can put your cymbals up and the one or two you want to try. It is just like it is better to use YOUR guitar when testing an amp or effect in a shop. Or at least that way you will be more certain that it will work for you and yours needs.
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Old 12-10-2008, 11:07 AM   #15
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Larry's Cymbals circa Rattle & Hum

Paiste 18" 2002 Heavy Crash
2 x 18" Rudes
20" Rude
2002 20" China Top
14" Sound Edge 2002 Hi hats
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Old 12-10-2008, 02:20 PM   #16
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Paiste 18" 2002 Heavy Crash
2 x 18" Rudes
20" Rude
2002 20" China Top
14" Sound Edge 2002 Hi hats

I think the Paiste Rudes were there for War and perhaps The Unforgettable Fire tours... You can see them in the "Under A Blood Red Sky" DVD and in the "Pride..." promo video.

I am not so sure about them being there for the Joshua Tree and Love Town tours. (I'd have to double check my books and magazines to verify that)

He changed to Paiste Signature Series during the recording of Achtung Baby
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:36 AM   #17
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I think the Paiste Rudes were there for War and perhaps The Unforgettable Fire tours... You can see them in the "Under A Blood Red Sky" DVD and in the "Pride..." promo video.

I am not so sure about them being there for the Joshua Tree and Love Town tours. (I'd have to double check my books and magazines to verify that)

He changed to Paiste Signature Series during the recording of Achtung Baby
I got my info from an interview with Larry in Musicain magazine Dec01 1985
also the same spec is in the International Musician & recording world magazine 1985
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:59 PM   #18
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I got my info from an interview with Larry in Musicain magazine Dec01 1985
also the same spec is in the International Musician & recording world magazine 1985
Right, but keep in mind the Modern Drummer article pre-dates Rattle & Hum by 2 years (date of filming), the Joshua Tour by 2 years and the Lovetown tour by 4 years.

The articles you mentioned jive with what I mentioned about the Rude's being used during the War tour and Unforgettable Fire.
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