U2 Reflect on Troubled 'Innocence' Release: 'These Songs Have Staying Power''

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BVS said:
:facepalm: you should know a little about music before saying some of the things you do. WOWY is a basic 4 chord song with no chorus or bridge, MD actually has a pre-chorus, chorus, structurally they aren't even close.


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Listen to the first part of the song. Exact same progression as WOWY. D-A-Bm.G, exact same bass eights by Adam, exact same recitative style of singing by Bono, subtle playing by Edge. Then there is an attempt for a big chorus, but it doesn´t work out quite well.
 
Well, why don't we let the producer of the record...Danny Lanois...have the final say on the WOWY "chorus"....

it doesn't have a chorus -- not in the traditional sense. "It has tension and builds like one of those great Roy Orbison songs, where every section is unique and never repeats. I like that kind of sophistication to be operating, out of step with the usual verse-chorus-bridge-verse-chorus. I think the moral of the story here is, you've got beautiful bottom-end on that [song] and then very beautiful top end with the Infinite sustain, leaving the mid-range open for Bono. So it's a little bit of genius in terms of clarity. It's kind of hymnal."
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Whilst I know that some here like to diminish and dismiss Danny's musical knowledge and contributions to records and songs he actually produced (and some no doubt will continue to question his musical competence), I think all reasonable people here can agree that his thoughts on this subject can be considered somewhat authoritive.
 
Despite his contribution to WOWY, in this case no matter what he says, WOWY has clear, obvious chorus, in live version you have it repeated even more times, or I don´t know how would you call this part differently than chorus:

With or without you
With or without you, my love
I can´t live
With or without you
 
Nick66 said:
Well, why don't we let the producer of the record...Danny Lanois...have the final say on the WOWY "chorus"....



Whilst I know that some here like to diminish and dismiss Danny's musical knowledge and contributions to records and songs he actually produced (and some no doubt will continue to question his musical competence), I think all reasonable people here can agree that his thoughts on this subject can be considered somewhat authoritive.
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:up:
 
thavidesco said:
Listen to the first part of the song. Exact same progression as WOWY. D-A-Bm.G, exact same bass eights by Adam, exact same recitative style of singing by Bono, subtle playing by Edge. Then there is an attempt for a big chorus, but it doesn´t work out quite well.
Click to expand...


Yes, the verse shares the same 4 chords, but that's about where the similarities stop.

It's a very popular chord progression. There are several YouTube skits about 4 chord songs.

Saying Edge subtle play or Bono recitative singing is describing a big chunk of their catalog.


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Well, I like Miracle Drug and that's all I've got to say about that.


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I must say, that I really like what Lanois says here, and it is really a direct argument against the type of song-writing that Bono is lauding on this album.

"it doesn't have a chorus -- not in the traditional sense. "It has tension and builds like one of those great Roy Orbison songs, where every section is unique and never repeats. I like that kind of sophistication to be operating, out of step with the usual verse-chorus-bridge-verse-chorus. I think the moral of the story here is, you've got beautiful bottom-end on that [song] and then very beautiful top end with the Infinite sustain, leaving the mid-range open for Bono. So it's a little bit of genius in terms of clarity. It's kind of hymnal."

I agree that it would be great to have a mix of what U2 does best. I love SOI. I think the lyrics and bono's delivery are miles ahead of most of the last three albums. But if they could still bring that loose, just off the usual verse,chorus,verse structure - I think that is where the magic lays.

Also, I think the "classic" is getting mixed up with talking about a great song. A song will only be a "classic" to the public if it becomes a hit and has major airplay staying power for years and years. Obviously SBS, NYD, Pride, WOWY, ISHFWILF, One, BD, etc... are all "classics" There are songs that are widely known by the public, but aren't really classic level, Desire, Vertigo, Angel of Harlem, All I Want is You, TUF, Walk On, Stuck etc...

I also think there is another classification of songs that should be classics if only given the right timing in the public, I think EBW is one of those songs. Maybe Kite, MOS, Magnificent??, A sort of Homecoming, (This is a little more difficult) But i think U2 fans can sort of feel a moment of greatness from the band, but it doesn't translate into success in the general public...
 
i haven't listened to this album in probably two full months. not deliberately, but it's just... boring. the good songs are worth a listen but i can't be bothered, it would seem.

i will never voluntarily listen to shit like volcano.
 
LemonMelon said:
"It sometimes plays on certain formats still" and "it survived one tour" is a pretty weak case for the song being a classic at this stage. I do think "quality is subjective" has its limits as well. Is Bang the Drum All Day a Todd Rundgren classic? Yeah it's played by the organist in hockey arenas, but we all know he's capable of better. Not all popular songs can be classics.

IMO the last classic U2 song is Beautiful Day and Moment of Surrender is the last capital-G GREAT song they've put. Vertigo is their last hit.
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It is certainly possible for a song to be a "classic" in the eyes of the masses while not being among the most beloved songs by the band's core fan base.

Vertigo was hugely popular for the band, and is one of their most well known songs by the common folk, and still holds a place on classic rock radio.

I think hardcore fans lose track of this sometimes, especially when it comes to tour time and the want to retire the old "warhorses."
 
i don't get the whole "the warhorses bore me."

i'm sick of PITNOL, but i remember during my first show (Popmart at Giants Stadium) i didn't really get into the show until they played that one. and i think i got a little emotional because it was like, "oh, right, i'm at a U2 show! people have been singing this song for over a decade in stadiums throughout the world, and now i'm finally a part of that."

war horses have their place, and not just because they are, almost invariably, superior songs. but because they give the audience a sense of location and occasion and the opportunity to participate in a massive sing along. "vertigo" gives the audience exactly that, and in a much more authentic way than the dictatorial "woo-hoo's" of "elevation."

it really isn't a U2 show without the red lights and opening organ chords of Streets. if U2 were to do club dates with, like, fan club only tickets. by all means, bust out Love Comes Tumbling for people who might enjoy. but if you're at an arena or bigger, you've got to give me Streets, WOWY, SBS, BD, One, and Bad. i want to revisit those songs and see how they've changed, and how i've changed since last i heard them in a live setting. i'm all about setlist variety, but i need a hit of warhorse from time to time.
 
Most people attending U2 shows are "casual" fans, and for many it may be the only time they'll attend a U2 show. That's who U2 are playing for. And those people are going to want to hear a good number of the "warhorses", and if U2 didn't play One, or WOWY, or God forbid Streets, those fans would come away feeling disappointed and cheated...and rightly so.
 
Nick66 said:
Most people attending U2 shows are "casual" fans, and for many it may be the only time they'll attend a U2 show. That's who U2 are playing for. And those people are going to want to hear a good number of the "warhorses", and if U2 didn't play One, or WOWY, or God forbid Streets, those fans would come away feeling disappointed and cheated...and rightly so.
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True, so the band needs to let fans know whether night 1 or night 2 will include those songs so casual fans know which night to buy their tix for and diehards know to buy for the other night.
 
Hewson said:
True, so the band needs to let fans know whether night 1 or night 2 will include those songs so casual fans know which night to buy their tix for and diehards know to buy for the other night.
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I suspect some songs could get split over the nights, at least in terms of the 'popular' ones anyway.

And of course, it doesn't mean that all the diehards want to hear 'obscure number off of October' in place of one of those songs either. So it's not a be all, end all in any case.

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There's nothing obscure from October. It's an album that's sold millions of copies. A Celebration is obscure. I Fall Down isn't.

I think that the presence of causal fans (ie. people who don't like the band enough to check out more than a couple records or greatest hits collections but will pay $300 to see them play four songs) at U2 concerts is overestimated. Every U2 album has sold shitloads. They have a lot of actual fans (people who are familiar with the majority of their work), and most of those will go see them live. There will always be some people who are just out for a good time, but most are fans, and would prefer to have some hits left behind.

I understand that saying that most people there are casual fans make some feel special (they're causal, I'm hardcore), but there's nothing special about being a U2 fan. All of their albums have sold millions of copies. I mean, people went nuts for Miss Sarajevo when I saw them, and that's on an album that was blacklisted before it even came out.
 
Hewson said:
True, so the band needs to let fans know whether night 1 or night 2 will include those songs so casual fans know which night to buy their tix for and diehards know to buy for the other night.
Click to expand...

Whatever ambitions they may have for the alternate "Innocence" and "Experience" nights, my guess is that at some point the shows will pretty much settle down to the standard setlist...with maybe a 2-3 song variation over different nights.

Hollow Island said:
There's nothing obscure from October. It's an album that's sold millions of copies. A Celebration is obscure. I Fall Down isn't.

I think that the presence of causal fans (ie. people who don't like the band enough to check out more than a couple records or greatest hits collections but will pay $300 to see them play four songs) at U2 concerts is overestimated. Every U2 album has sold shitloads. They have a lot of actual fans (people who are familiar with the majority of their work), and most of those will go see them live. There will always be some people who are just out for a good time, but most are fans, and would prefer to have some hits left behind.

I understand that saying that most people there are casual fans make some feel special (they're causal, I'm hardcore), but there's nothing special about being a U2 fan. All of their albums have sold millions of copies. I mean, people went nuts for Miss Sarajevo when I saw them, and that's on an album that was blacklisted before it even came out.
Click to expand...

Well, all U2 records have sold "millions" of copies. That doesn't mean some songs aren't more "obscure" than others...obscurity being a relative term when it comes to a band like U2, of course. But it's reasonable to say, for example on TUF, that Pride is a song everyone knows and Elvis Presley and America is relatively obscure...though both are on the same multi-platinum record. The same can be said for any U2 album.

With regards to whether most people at any given U2 show are "hardcore" or "casual" fans, I think U2 knows who their audience is better than anyone, and the "warhorse" heavy setlists reflects that.

I do agree that there's little "special" about being a U2 fan. We kind of have a "U2 against the world" attitude here, and a lot of people seem to think being a U2 fan confers some kind of victim status. But really, we're all essentially fans of one the biggest, most successful, rock bands in the world, and frankly don't have much to complain about. That said, I do think the nucleus of "hardcore" fans is significantly smaller than it was at its various peaks (i.e. 87-92; 2000-2005).
 
It's interesting but Elevation, as disliked as it is around these parts, is one of U2's most popular live songs. I would argue that based on audience reaction from every show that I have been to and every clip I have both watched and listed to that it is in their top 5 live songs.

I mean, would it be crazy to suggest that Elevation is a "warhorse"?

I for one love the album cut and an one of those nuts singing along at the shows!



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Headache in a Suitcase said:
It is certainly possible for a song to be a "classic" in the eyes of the masses while not being among the most beloved songs by the band's core fan base.

Vertigo was hugely popular for the band, and is one of their most well known songs by the common folk, and still holds a place on classic rock radio.

I think hardcore fans lose track of this sometimes, especially when it comes to tour time and the want to retire the old "warhorses."
Click to expand...

Is it even a "classic" in the eyes of the masses though? After the first couple of months, I remember Vertigo being treated like a meme more than a great song. "Hey, it's the iPod song!" "Why are they so awful at Spanish?" "I remember this from South Park! YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH"

But I do hope it stays in the live rotation for a while longer. Only once a night though.
 
Nick66 said:
Whatever ambitions they may have for the alternate "Innocence" and "Experience" nights, my guess is that at some point the shows will pretty much settle down to the standard setlist...with maybe a 2-3 song variation over different nights.



Well, all U2 records have sold "millions" of copies. That doesn't mean some songs aren't more "obscure" than others...obscurity being a relative term when it comes to a band like U2, of course. But it's reasonable to say, for example on TUF, that Pride is a song everyone knows and Elvis Presley and America is relatively obscure...though both are on the same multi-platinum record. The same can be said for any U2 album.

With regards to whether most people at any given U2 show are "hardcore" or "casual" fans, I think U2 knows who their audience is better than anyone, and the "warhorse" heavy setlists reflects that.

I do agree that there's little "special" about being a U2 fan. We kind of have a "U2 against the world" attitude here, and a lot of people seem to think being a U2 fan confers some kind of victim status. But really, we're all essentially fans of one the biggest, most successful, rock bands in the world, and frankly don't have much to complain about. That said, I do think the nucleus of "hardcore" fans is significantly smaller than it was at its various peaks (i.e. 87-92; 2000-2005).
Click to expand...

Elvis Presely and America is obscure compared to Pride because Pride has been a radio staple for 30 years. Nothing on TUF can be considered obscure, even by U2 standards. It's a mega-selling, all-time classic rock album. U2 could play anything from that and the majority of the crowd would know it.

I don't think that U2 know their fan base anymore, hence the watering down of their music, which is something their fans have been complaining about since 2000. U2 think they know the general music market (and try to cater to it) but it seems like they're gearing their sets more to people who don't like them all that much than those that do, even though it makes sense that most people willing to spend hundreds of dollars to see a band likes them a lot. Unless U2 crowds are now made up of rich people who just want to say they were at an exclusive event.
 
Vertigo is well known because it was in an ad that was shoved at the world for months, not because people liked it. I rarely heard it on the radio and haven't heard it since that album was out. It's not a classic, it's not even a real hit. It's just something that annoyed people. Vertigo is the main reason that U2 hatred is such a cultural force and the default setting for so many people. Prior to Vertigo they were disliked but not hated with such force. Such is the power of Vertigo multiple times a day for months on end.
 
Hollow Island said:
Elvis Presely and America is obscure compared to Pride because Pride has been a radio staple for 30 years. Nothing on TUF can be considered obscure, even by U2 standards. It's a mega-selling, all-time classic rock album. U2 could play anything from that and the majority of the crowd would know it.

I don't think that U2 know their fan base anymore, hence the watering down of their music, which is something their fans have been complaining about since 2000. U2 think they know the general music market (and try to cater to it) but it seems like they're gearing their sets more to people who don't like them all that much than those that do, even though it makes sense that most people willing to spend hundreds of dollars to see a band likes them a lot. Unless U2 crowds are now made up of rich people who just want to say they were at an exclusive event.
Click to expand...

NOLTH is a Masterpiece

and HUTDUB and ATYCLB are excellent

well GA are ? 85$

luckily i got some one who's very easy on lending me Tix money esp when we go together and get better seats

Paid them back for years of U2 & Springsteen seats totaling about 820$ 2 1/2 yrs ago

Now we start a new round with the SOI tour though i hope I will be paying back more and sooner!
 
CosmoKramer said:
It's interesting but Elevation, as disliked as it is around these parts, is one of U2's most popular live songs. I would argue that based on audience reaction from every show that I have been to and every clip I have both watched and listed to that it is in their top 5 live songs.

I mean, would it be crazy to suggest that Elevation is a "warhorse"?

I for one love the album cut and an one of those nuts singing along at the shows!



Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
Click to expand...


I think Elevation or Boots, Vertigo cannot be considered as warhorses, because they are played with enthusiasm by the band, they had raw energy and it´s very uplifting experience.

There are different songs that can be ranked as a warhorse. Songs that sound tired, uninspired like played only on autopilot mode. I think it is obvious with songs like Bullet, WOWY, One, Desire, Stuck, Until the end of the world, Sunday every time last few tours, sometimes I will follow or New Years Day...

Damn it, it means half of the show is made of warhorses :)

I understand they need to play most of these songs at a big stadium show for the huge crowd, but I hope they change the setlist for the upcoming indoor show
 
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