Imagine if Moment Of Surrender was...

[Earnie Shavers]

"City Of Blinding Lights" come from (at least...) the All That You Can't Leave Behind.

Thought I read somewhere that COBL was actually born during the Pop sessions. I'd love to know what feel/sound/structure it had back then.

 

[Michael Griffiths]

Guys in this forum only don't want "Mercy" on the album, because they have already heard it. What they cannot imagine is that the U2 fanbase is miles much bigger than this little online village in which we're into.

Again, I realize that most people have never heard 'Mercy', but my point is that U2, themselves, would be digging into their past by bringing a finished song to the present - something that they have never been about when releasing proper albums.

There's no problem in bringing "Mercy" for the new record. Pop has "Velvet Dress" and "Wake Up Dead Man" that had already recorded versions in the Zooropa sessions. "Hold me Thrill me Kiss me Kill me" and "Goldeneye" could've perfectly ended on Pop too if their destiny were not soundtracks.
All That You Can't Leave Behind sessions brought "Levitate" that came from the Pop sessions and "Walk On", for instance, whice early versions come from Pop era too.
Guys here forget too that the earliest versions of "Original Of The Species", "Love+Peace Or Else" and "City Of Blinding Lights" come from (at least...) the All That You Can't Leave Behind.

Oh, I forgot to say that U2 are not the only ones to recycle songs from past sessions.

And once again, U2 have never been about digging up finished songs and putting them on proper U2 albums. None of those songs you mentioned were finished except for 'Hold Me Thrill Me Kiss Me Kill Me'. There was probably a reason why U2 did not include 'Hold me Thrill me Kiss Me Kill me' on Pop. My guess is it came from a different time and a different sound. U2 were no longer into that type of sound by the time they got into Pop. Their heads were in the present, not the past. Perhaps it was also the same reason why they didn't include 'Levitate' on ATYCLB.

Now, if U2 include 'Mercy' on the new album, my guess is they would change it a lot, and impliment a lot of what they're into at the moment. I would hope so anyway, as this is how they have always worked, and that is something I have always respected about U2.

 

[lazarus]

Well, if Mercy was the bridge that led them into this new sound, it might not be as out of place as you think.

And of course it would likely be redone with Lanois and Eno. Whether or not they would butcher it is another question.

 

[Michael Griffiths]

Well, if Mercy was the bridge that led them into this new sound, it might not be as out of place as you think.

And of course it would likely be redone with Lanois and Eno. Whether or not they would butcher it is another question.

It's not about 'Mercy' being "out of place" on the new album, but rather about it being from a different time. 'Mercy' sounds like a finished song to me. The songs U2 have worked on from earlier projects were never finished until much later. They weren't just reworked; they were completed. Being that 'Mercy' sounds complete already, U2 would have to do something they have never done before if they were to either a) rework it, or b) put it on the album as it is.

 

[The John Tree]

I liked the studio Stuck much more than the acoustic. And, once again, that word "overproduced" was thrown out.

I swear, some people want U2 to be just Bono and Edge on a street corner with a microphone and an acoustic guitar. Anything else is overproduced.


Also: someone posted a video of the Zoo TV version of Desire. I thought it could have been so good. But that phaser effect that Edge puts on his guitar is both distracting and so cliche. It's like "this is an old song. But this is a futuristic show. I got it! Let's take the most futuristic sounding effect I have and slap it on here!". Didn't quite work for me. Especially didn't work with Macphisto, who kind of Lou Reeded it through the song.

 

[Rob33]

Again, I realize that most people have never heard 'Mercy', but my point is that U2, themselves, would be digging into their past by bringing a finished song to the present - something that they have never been about when releasing proper albums.


And once again, U2 have never been about digging up finished songs and putting them on proper U2 albums.

You keep saying "finished songs"....Mercy was never finished..it was merely a demo that got leaked...

 

[Michael Griffiths]

You keep saying "finished songs"....Mercy was never finished..it was merely a demo that got leaked...

I don't ever recall any proof one way or the other. It was one of the songs Bono had on his version of Atomic Bomb. As such, one could say that all the songs on Atomic Bomb were demos until they were mastered if we are to assume 'Mercy' is a demo. It sounds pretty finished to my ears, no less than the other songs off Bomb in my opinion. The audio isn't the same quality as the other songs only because the version of 'Mercy' that is floating around was never released in proper format.

 

[Aygo]

Thought I read somewhere that COBL was actually born during the Pop sessions. I'd love to know what feel/sound/structure it had back then.

I wrote (at least) from ATYCLB sessions, remember?
I believe that this song might have been totally different that time. Maybe only parts of it ended on the final COBL.

 

[Aygo]

Again, I realize that most people have never heard 'Mercy', but my point is that U2, themselves, would be digging into their past by bringing a finished song to the present - something that they have never been about when releasing proper albums.


And once again, U2 have never been about digging up finished songs and putting them on proper U2 albums. None of those songs you mentioned were finished except for 'Hold Me Thrill Me Kiss Me Kill Me'. There was probably a reason why U2 did not include 'Hold me Thrill me Kiss Me Kill me' on Pop. My guess is it came from a different time and a different sound. U2 were no longer into that type of sound by the time they got into Pop. Their heads were in the present, not the past. Perhaps it was also the same reason why they didn't include 'Levitate' on ATYCLB.

Now, if U2 include 'Mercy' on the new album, my guess is they would change it a lot, and impliment a lot of what they're into at the moment. I would hope so anyway, as this is how they have always worked, and that is something I have always respected about U2.

You're basing yourself in assumptions.
Besides Goldeneye, you and no one have no idea about in which stage these songs were. U2 could possibly have finished versions of WUDM or Velvet Dress for Zooropa and then could've made new versions for Pop. The same preposition goes for the other songs I gave as an example.

U2 "dig in the past" fom long ago. U2 started to write "Who's Gonna Ride Your Wild Horses" even during the R&H/Lovetown era. They could've left it behind and basing AB only in what the Berlin sessions brought.

Dozens of artists and bands "dig in the past" for their albums. I believe that many artists do that, they go to their notes searching for something good that had forgotten.
Madonna, for instance, does that a lot. Earliest versions of "Hollywood" come from Ray Of Light sessions. "Miles Away" and "Voices" original versions come from American Life sessions, "Devil Wouldn't Recognize You" was originally written for a (now cancelled) musical during the post-American Life era and the same goes for "I Love New York". And this is just an mere example.

 

[popacrobat]

You keep saying "finished songs"....Mercy was never finished..it was merely a demo that got leaked...

Mercy was definitely finished and ready to go on Bomb. Aside from what Michael said, if you have the deluxe edition of the Atomic Bomb, then you'd see on some of the pages written lyrics from Mercy as part of the artwork. It was also on one of the artwork tracklistings in there I think. I believe the song was cut at the 11th hour.

 

[u2search]

It's not about 'Mercy' being "out of place" on the new album, but rather about it being from a different time. 'Mercy' sounds like a finished song to me. The songs U2 have worked on from earlier projects were never finished until much later. They weren't just reworked; they were completed. Being that 'Mercy' sounds complete already, U2 would have to do something they have never done before if they were to either a) rework it, or b) put it on the album as it is.

I don't think it's true they never reworked an already completed song. Native Son was a finished product and had been sent to the record company to fire them up when Bono decided he didn't like to sing it.

You keep saying "finished songs"....Mercy was never finished..it was merely a demo that got leaked...

Mercy was not a demo, it was cut from the Bomb at the last moment. They had too many songs and might as well have tossed another one.

 

[Michael Griffiths]

You're basing yourself in assumptions.
Besides Goldeneye, you and no one have no idea about in which stage these songs were. U2 could possibly have finished versions of WUDM or Velvet Dress for Zooropa and then could've made new versions for Pop. The same preposition goes for the other songs I gave as an example.

U2 "dig in the past" fom long ago. U2 started to write "Who's Gonna Ride Your Wild Horses" even during the R&H/Lovetown era. They could've left it behind and basing AB only in what the Berlin sessions brought.

Dozens of artists and bands "dig in the past" for their albums. I believe that many artists do that, they go to their notes searching for something good that had forgotten.
Madonna, for instance, does that a lot. Earliest versions of "Hollywood" come from Ray Of Light sessions. "Miles Away" and "Voices" original versions come from American Life sessions, "Devil Wouldn't Recognize You" was originally written for a (now cancelled) musical during the post-American Life era and the same goes for "I Love New York". And this is just an mere example.

I think we are saying the same thing but thinking we are arguing something different. I agree with you that U2 dust off work from the past when writing new material. However, these songs are never just transplanted as they were. They are "works in progress" - often demos and sketches or rough drafts. They are songs that are floating around in the "never quite finished" stage. On the other hand, 'Mercy' sounds completely finished in both the mixing as well as the production stage. This is a song that was being considered for Bomb just as it was. That's the difference I see.

 

[Michael Griffiths]

I don't think it's true they never reworked an already completed song. Native Son was a finished product and had been sent to the record company to fire them up when Bono decided he didn't like to sing it.

Yes, but that was for the same album! I was of course speaking of reworking finished songs from past album recording sessions and bringing them to the present album sessions. I knkow U2 rework songs all the time during current recording sessions ('Always' to 'Beautiful Day' for example).

 

[U2DMfan]

City of Blinding Lights originated in the POP sessions and was called 'Scott Walker', it appeared on the white board during ATYCLB sessions as well. Then it was called 'Firefly' before becoming COBL.

As for Mercy, this argument about how complete it was is sort of ridiculous.

We weren't even supposed to have heard Mercy.
So we can't make any claims about how finished it is.
A song is never finished until it's creator decides to stop working on it.

 

[bram]

City of Blinding Lights originated in the POP sessions and was called 'Scott Walker', it appeared on the white board during ATYCLB sessions as well. Then it was called 'Firefly' before becoming COBL.

As for Mercy, this argument about how complete it was is sort of ridiculous.

We weren't even supposed to have heard Mercy.
So we can't make any claims about how finished it is.
A song is never finished until it's creator decides to stop working on it.

Well, that may sound nice...but its really just a word game. The song was as finished as the other 11 songs that were included on Bomb (12 if you include Fast Cars). Now if you want to argue semantics over whether or not it is possible for an unreleased song to be truly "finished", that's one thing. But the song was cut for length reasons (and this happened with some within-band disagreement it would seem). Would A Man and a Woman be unfinished if it was cut at the last minute like Mercy was, even if it was the exact same version that we have on the album? I would argue that it was finished. U2 probably would maybe toy with it later and claim it was unfinished and I assume you'd agree. But I think I would just consider that a different version. Whether or not a song is released for public consumption shouldn't dictate the state of the song. I think both Discotheque versions are finished but they are different versions. The Pop version isn't a demo. Mercy as it was recorded is not a demo, but it may be released in an alternate version. The fact that it wasn't released doesn't make the scenario any different in actuality from the Discotheque scenario. Same song from different album eras.

 

[Aygo]

A song is never finished until it's creator decides to stop working on it.

TOUCHÉ!!!

 

[PowerSurge]

Yeah primarily it's the guitar that has me hooked on this song. As far as the vocal criticism goes, the verses aren't really belted out, so it doesn't bother me that the chorus is. Yeah, he's pushing the boundaries of his limits, but to me it fits the plaintive nature of the material. You could say the same thing about the album version of Bad, which is rather clunky. Also, this may sound like a minor point, but I really love the "Feel nothing...whoo-hoo!" yelp right before the guitar solo (of course that really long "feeeeeel" just breaks down pretty sloppily). And the song ends back on earth, with that understated "again and again and again" chant.

I see your point. But as with Gone, I feel going back to try and lay down a more "perfect" vocal might result in a serious drop in passion.

Great point about "Gone". I basically loathe all of the "newer" POP songs. I loved POP and hate the fact that they went back and tried to polish things off or whatever compelled them to fuck with a bunch of great songs.

IDK, you can't love ALL of their songs...and I guess as much as I want to love "Mercy" I just don't. And you know what? Thats alright.

 

[U2DMfan]

Bram,

I'm not playing a word game or dealing in semantics. It's fact. Those playing with semantics are the one who have to nuance their arguments about the degrees of how finished the product is. My factual definition is straight up simple. It's not finished until the creator says it's finished.

As an author of a novel, or a painter of a painting or the writer of a song, only I decide when it's finished. It's preposterous to say otherwise.

It's a whole different idea had it been a form of revisionist history ala POP. If they put a song on a hard copy and ask me to pay money for it, then by all means, I consider it to be finished. Dealing with music we weren't even supposed to have our hands on is a different issue altogether.

Original of the Species was 'finished' in a certain form in 2001. How do we know this? Because it was being played for at least one member of the media who would go on to write about it. Sound familiar? The exact same situation happened with Mercy.
It was also played in short on TV but because Leslie Stahl didn't get a copy of the version of OOTS that was played on 60 Minutes and have her daughter leak it to the internet, so we could 'decide' how 'finished' it truly was, we'll never know what the differences were.

We know now that the version of OOTS wasn't finished becausethey re-recorded it and changed the chords and changed the whole composition. But if you had heard it then, you'd be claiming it was finished based on how the production sounds?
Based on what exactly? Don't you see how precarious this is? We know it was in the running to be on ATYCLB. It was the exact same situation, the only difference is you got to hear one version (Mercy) in full and the other is just a mystery.

Mercy sounds great, I have no doubt they considered it for the album and I have no doubt they considered it to be in some finished form, the basic point is, we don't get to decide if it's truly finished or not.

If SJfan never leaks that song, this conversation never even takes place, do you see what I mean? So to follow this logic one step further, if a re-worked Mercy makes it to the new album, then how are 9+ million U2 fans who've never heard Mercy going to know the difference?

 

[Bottle Bono]

Mercy was never finished.

 

[Rob33]

Mercy was definitely finished and ready to go on Bomb. Aside from what Michael said, if you have the deluxe edition of the Atomic Bomb, then you'd see on some of the pages written lyrics from Mercy as part of the artwork. It was also on one of the artwork tracklistings in there I think. I believe the song was cut at the 11th hour.

Being "finished" and "ready to go on Bomb" are two different things. I stand by what I said, that Mercy was never finished.

 

[Screwtape2]

Being "finished" and "ready to go on Bomb" are two different things. I stand by what I said, that Mercy was never finished.

Of course! A song ready to be put on the album can't possibly be finished. How can people not know this?

 

[Bottle Bono]

I don't think U2 EVER finish songs.

They just get to a point where they have to put the current version on the Album.

Sorta like the sands in the hour glass finish and the time is up.

That way if it is a crap album, they can say "we never finished the songs!"

In a way they are right.

If U2 really had their way, the songs would never be finished and we would still be waiting for BOY to come out.

 

[PowerSurge]

If you put a song on an album its FINISHED...PERIOD.

It may not be COMPLETE and to their liking...but its finished.

Lets not get into semantics here. Unfinished songs don't make albums.

 

[bram]

I don't think U2 EVER finish songs.

They just get to a point where they have to put the current version on the Album.

Sorta like the sands in the hour glass finish and the time is up.

That way if it is a crap album, they can say "we never finished the songs!"

In a way they are right.

If U2 really had their way, the songs would never be finished and we would still be waiting for BOY to come out.

This is the only argument that makes any sense, oddly enough. If this is what you guys are standing by, then I can agree with that. But I would still argue that the artists (particularly the artists who have serious musical input--Bono and Edge) determined this song to be finished and then had to give in to Larry and cut the song. So to me that still means its finished. And I completely understand what you're saying, but I can't agree. Is the 1977 Star Wars no longer a finished version because George Lucas now says so?

 

[bram]

If you put a song on an album its FINISHED...PERIOD.

It may not be COMPLETE and to their liking...but its finished.

Lets not get into semantics here. Unfinished songs don't make albums.

But finished songs can also be cut from albums. Like B-sides. The only reason Mercy wasn't made a B-side is because U2 was thinking there is a good chance they'll use it in some way, shape, or form later. It was too good to "waste". However, the motives for not releasing it have nothing to do with the whether or not the song was "ready" or "finished" and therefore the simple absence of the track on any released media does not dictate the nature of the track.

 

[bram]

And just to reiterate: I understand your points. But I can't accept public release as the definition of "finished". They cut the track to their liking. Done. Period.

 

[U2girl]

Mercy was never finished.

Yes, it was. It was to be included on Bomb, as shown by that Blender article.

 

[bram]

Yes, it was. It was to be included on Bomb, as shown by that Blender article.

Amen.

 

[Bottle Bono]

This is the only argument that makes any sense, oddly enough. If this is what you guys are standing by, then I can agree with that. But I would still argue that the artists (particularly the artists who have serious musical input--Bono and Edge) determined this song to be finished and then had to give in to Larry and cut the song. So to me that still means its finished. And I completely understand what you're saying, but I can't agree. Is the 1977 Star Wars no longer a finished version because George Lucas now says so?

Star Wars, '77 version, is finished as it is in print.

Star Wars, the version that came out as a 25th anniversary updated version ,is finish because it is on print.

Star Wars, the 50th anniversary updated version, is not finished because it is not in print.

See what I mean.


Even if Blender said Mercy was finished, it is now available for the Star Wars 50th anniversary.

The Force is Strong in this One.

 

[bram]

Bottle--As I just said above:

And just to reiterate: I understand your points. But I can't accept public release as the definition of "finished". They cut the track to their liking. Done. Period.