FACT: Bono and his lyric writing is ruining U2

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"You want to kill me and I want to die"

A line about an acknowledged sinner and a vengeful God?

A line about suicidal lover?

A line about a self depricating man and the hopelessly in love lover that want to save him?

Or just a line about a two people that have almost given up?

The line can go so many ways. How is that straight forward? How is that typical "pop"?

Or just a line about


or about the Crucifixion too.
 
So Mercy has simple beats, simple lyrics and same guitar pieces and that's what makes it a boring pop song?

But With or Without you has complex beats, complex lyrics and varied guitar pieces?

I have a sudden urge to defend WOWY here... i think it has quite a complex beat - it starts of with a drum loop, and then larry comes in, and constantly develops his patterns throughout the song. It doesn't change radically, it's very subtle, but to me it's still complex. The guitar pieces are pretty varied too - starts off with the ebow effect playing with a pedal steel guitar, and yes there is a predominant riff, but it's juxtaposed with other layers of guitar playing other melodies. And i think the lyrics are pretty deep too...

But at the same time, i wouldn't call mercy inferior, especially given i've not heard a studio version (other than the 2005 one), it could sound more intricate.
 
In the past Bono's lyrics were more impulsive and poetic, and now they are more cerebral. I think it's interesting that in recent interviews Bono has been dismissive about his lyrics on the early albums. I saw an interview once with Dave Stewart where Bono said that he disliked the lyrics on Bad, and Edge said that he thought it was one of Bono's best ever lyrics. Interesting. I wish I had the link handy.
So it seems Bono writes more with his head than his heart these days. I prefer the more impulsive Bono of old. But that's not to say his lyrics suck now. Far from it. He's still one of the best lyricists of any major band.
 
I have a sudden urge to defend WOWY here... i think it has quite a complex beat - it starts of with a drum loop, and then larry comes in, and constantly develops his patterns throughout the song. It doesn't change radically, it's very subtle, but to me it's still complex. The guitar pieces are pretty varied too - starts off with the ebow effect playing with a pedal steel guitar, and yes there is a predominant riff, but it's juxtaposed with other layers of guitar playing other melodies. And i think the lyrics are pretty deep too...

But at the same time, i wouldn't call mercy inferior, especially given i've not heard a studio version (other than the 2005 one), it could sound more intricate.

This is sorta my point. The previous poster was looking purely at the surface of a song and making a really bad generalization.
 
I was avoiding this thread, both when it started and this latest revival, but I am bored, so now I'm jumping in with all four hooves....

RE: Bono's "extracurricular activities" are either interfering with or too heavily influencing his songwriting...

Well, maybe you folks just never noticed that Bono has written about social issues since day one. The early eighties albums are slap FULL of social issues and were written LONG before Bono had ANY extracurricular activities. My God, have you never listened to "A Day Without Me", "Electric Co.", "New Year's Day" or "Sunday Fucking Bloody Sunday"????? And those are just a few of the more well-known tracks! Spin forward to JT, and "Red Hill Ming Town" and "Bullet the Blue Sky" immediately come to mind - not to mention "Mothers of the Disappeared." Sure, they'd done Live Aid by then, but was Bono out politicking and glad-handing and all that rot back then? Hmmmm..... was anyone really LISTENING? Even back then there were complaints from critics and fans alike that Bono's 'high-mindedness' was detracting from U2's popularity. Just how in tarnation did you become a fan in the first place?

RE: U2 has passed their glory days, etc...

You know, I really hate it when a fan brags they've loved the band for 18 billion years and that anyone who hasn't been a fan that long doesn't know what they're talking about, so don't take this in that way. I have been a fan for nearly 30 years, and I remember just being happy that their songs made it through all the slush on the radio just to get a little airplay. I remember when JT came out and suddenly folks would stop me in the halls between classes saying something to the effect like "Oh, NOW I know who you're talking about!" I remember how the JT catapult turned into the AB rocketship and I was completely astounded at how those folks, who previously were thriving on crappy bubblegum music, suddenly embraced AB like it it was a debut album from some wunderkind boy-band.

And ever since, U2 has been criticized for not repeating that rise to glory. Huh?? The only way they they could do that is to fade away completely and re-emerge in a generation that has barely heard of them. That's just not going to happen - they are too well-known. And the reason they are so well known is that they continue to put out quality music that keeps them in the public's ear. People act like U2 use some kind of strong-arm tactics to get their songs on the radio anymore, but you and I both know that's bullshit. Radio stations play what they think the public wants to hear to keep their listeners tuning into to their channel.

I suppose my point is that I'm just happy that U2 still make it through all the slush on the radio to get a little airplay. If so-called artists like Whitesnake, Kiss, and nowadays Nickelback and Kid Rock are so hugely popular with their one-trick ponies, at least all is not lost when a little U2 can still be injected into the airwaves now and then.

RE: Bono's lyrics lately are too dark or too obscure...

I gotta refer back to my question above: just how did you become a fan in the first place? I mean, really? In the hundreds of songs U2 has put out, only a small handful don't contain some element of negativity, melancholy, regret, anger, etc. The vast majority of the lyrics he writes come from the darker side of the human soul. Even songs which are hopeful, happy or just plain bubbly have references which imply such happiness and hopefulness are precious and hard to come by and must be fought for else they disappear.

And as far as being obscure, well, all I can say from my perspective as a poet is that trying to describe a concept or a feeling in plain ordinary English is difficult at best. Using allegories to get a concept across is tricky. If the reader (or in this case, listener) doesn't follow your train of thought, you can lose them with just one or two lines. Every person's perspective on the world is shaped by their past experiences. And everyone's past experience is different from everyone else's. I suppose what I'm saying is that his lyrics make sense to him because he's writing them from where he's coming from. You don't always know the starting point of his train of thought, so it's sometimes hard to see where the train is going. It's going to happen sometimes... or would you rather he write the same pap that the majority of so-called songwriters put out these days? Easily digestible garbage?

RE: General thoughts on Bono's lyric writing...

In my lifetime, I've written maybe a couple of hundred poems, out of which maybe 20 I believe are truly artistic enough to be called 'real' poems. Sometimes a really great line or two is buried in a pile of shit, but you keep the pile of shit because you haven't found any other way to frame those really great lines. Sometimes you start writing with a clear idea in your head of where you want to go, but the words which fall into place go in a different direction entirely. Making a real work of art is part genius, but also part luck. You rarely know which is which.

Bono has had to write lyrics to what, over 400 songs? I just can't imagine that kind of pressure. And to have all those words permanently recorded for people to chew over again and again and again, with no way of taking them back? Folks buy the album (we hope) and listen to the songs and that's the first impression they get of the lyrics. And that impression stays because Bono can't go back and erase a word or a line if he thinks of something better later on. What's done is done.

There are a great many well-known poets of the past and present. Emily Dickinson, William Wordsworth, Edgar Allan Poe, egads, lemme think, I'm brain-dead right now. At any rate, if you go through and read some of these celebrated poets' entire life's work, you come to realize that not one of them has written more than a handful of masterpieces and the rest may be pleasant yes, but entirely forgettable. It's like that with every writer. It's also like that with every music artist.

I'm not saying that Bono has written ANY great masterpieces, but just think of how many U2 songs you know by heart, how many of them you sing just for the fun of feeling the words roll out of your mouth. I'm not placing Bono on any kind of pedestal, not a chance, just trying to say that he has done better than most people could have done in his situation. If he has a few duds, he has a few duds. Let it slide and qwitcher-bitchin'.

goat

I finally caught up on this thread and just wanted to say great post. :up: :) (the part I really liked was the last section you titled General thoughts on Bono's lyric writing...)
 
It's time to come out and say it. Bono is a wonderful man who has been helping the world in many different ways, but because of this has not been spending enough time working on his craft. The lyrics on the last two albums have been less than spectacular and its time for the band to say enough is enough.

Now, I'm not advocating kicking him out of the band, but the band needs to have veto power over the lyrics.

I though the lyrics on No Line were pretty good. The title track, MOS, White as Snow, Cedars of Lebanon, Fez, and UC all have pretty good lyircs. I think White as Snow and cedars of Lebanon are as good as anything he's ever written. His lyrics have always been spotty anyways; every album has some cringe-inducing lines.

Bomb's lyrics are idiotic, though. Unforgivable. I can't listen to that album in part because of his words.

Still, for a band that's been around as long as U2, his words are pretty impressive. Most run out of things to say. Stipe fell off sharply after Up, and Robert Smith....have you heard what he's been saying the last few albums?? He hasn't been good for 20 years, but still...wow. They're bad.
It's not Bono's fault he's not Nick Cave.

I do agree that he needs to spend more time with the band. He's not giving U2 the attention it deserves, and it's hurting the band. If he feels that he is making a difference in the world, then he should respect U2 enough to end it rather than shortchange it.

When U2 was his full time job they were the best, or near it. The same can't be said of U2 since he decided to spend more time with the financial/political elite.
 
Nice post there Hollow. Really flowed. Like butter on toast. You're dangerous cause you're honest.
 
"You want to kill me and I want to die"

How is that typical "pop"?

Good-Charlotte-Nickelodeon.jpg
 
I actually have no clue who Nick Cave is. I'm just saying I think Bono is a great poet :D

Yes I agree I think his lyrics are easily relatable, mostly because they aren't always so specific, but rather can be interpreted different ways and are often metaphorical too. Although there are some dumb people out there who need lyrics to be nothing more than the same three words repeated over and over to a beat...aaand that's why we have the kind of "Top 40" that we do.
 
Yeah, but I think Nick Cave and Bono are very different.. Bono's writing style is more for everyone.. more.. accessible if you get what I mean.:wink:

I'm not sure of what you say, Nick Cave is a story teller and as such not really difficult to get, his stories can be gruesome and sexually charged, but I've never found them inaccessible.

Bono is more an impressionist, he doesn't tell stories, he describes situations or emotions, usually only partially, that's why people discuss the real meaning of his lyrics.

I agree with you in that they are very different.
 
Marien said:
Bono is more an impressionist, he doesn't tell stories, he describes situations or emotions, usually only partially, that's why people discuss the real meaning of his lyrics.
.

This was the sort of term I was looking for but could not seem to think of.

Whereas someone like, oh idk, Billy Joel tells a distinct story, the songs Bono writes are more like paintings. Which I like much better.
 
I don't think Bono ever really came into his own with lyrics. I think he was getting there in the 90's. Besides a few awkward lines, the whole decade was pretty solid. If they continued exploring themselves after POP, instead of the whole retro 00's thing, who knows?...Bono might've written words worthy of Dylan, Cohen, his idols. As it stands, the 90's was the closest Bono ever came to achieving lyrical greatness.

This is just my opinion. I'm sure some here will disagree.
 
I don't think Bono ever really came into his own with lyrics. I think he was getting there in the 90's. Besides a few awkward lines, the whole decade was pretty solid. If they continued exploring themselves after POP, instead of the whole retro 00's thing, who knows?...Bono might've written words worthy of Dylan, Cohen, his idols. As it stands, the 90's was the closest Bono ever came to achieving lyrical greatness.

This is just my opinion. I'm sure some here will disagree.

I completely agree. I like the 80s stuff too, but he wrote phenomenal lyrics in the 90s. Of the three decades, I think the 00's are the worst lyrically.

He just resorted to singing "Ohh" too much on NLOTH. Think about how many songs on that album where that's true. FEZ/Being Born would have been an epic song if he had just wrote a freakin' chorus...
 
My only thought on the matter is that perhaps things are rushed.

I think it is great that Bono has his hand in a number of projects that help others.

But - BAND time should be BAND TIME. In that, 100% should be given to the band, songwriting and rehearsals when it is album time or tour time.
 
My only thought on the matter is that perhaps things are rushed.

I think it is great that Bono has his hand in a number of projects that help others.

But - BAND time should be BAND TIME. In that, 100% should be given to the band, songwriting and rehearsals when it is album time or tour time.

Have you ever read any poetry from the beat generation?
It is very difficult to understand some of Bono's work if you've only read classical, academic poetry,maybe you would like to read something by Willian S. Burroughs, who is one of the main literary influences on rock music, for example on Nick Cave, Dylan, REM and also Bono. Burroughs is the man at the end of Last Night On Earth video, it was his last filmed appearance, he died not long afterwards.

Here is a pic of him, perhaps it reminds you of something.

wbgs.jpg
 
Have you ever read any poetry from the beat generation?
It is very difficult to understand some of Bono's work if you've only read classical, academic poetry,maybe you would like to read something by Willian S. Burroughs, who is one of the main literary influences on rock music, for example on Nick Cave, Dylan, REM and also Bono. Burroughs is the man at the end of Last Night On Earth video, it was his last filmed appearance, he died not long afterwards.

Here is a pic of him, perhaps it reminds you of something.

wbgs.jpg

I've always been fascinated by the beat poets. I've read the three giants of that era: Burroughs, Kerouac, Ginsberg. I've also read other writers that inspired Bono (C.S. Lewis, Bukowski, Wilde, Yeats). Henry Miller is a favorite of mine. Rimbaud and Blake had an enormous impact on BP. Leonard Cohen's Beautiful Losers is like one fucked up poem (i'm sure Bono at least skimmed thru that one, being a devoted Cohen fan).

Anyway, that being said...which Bono lyrics post-POP do you think requires an education in Beat Poetry to understand?
 
I've always been fascinated by the beat poets. I've read the three giants of that era: Burroughs, Kerouac, Ginsberg. I've also read other writers that inspired Bono (C.S. Lewis, Bukowski, Wilde, Yeats). Henry Miller is a favorite of mine. Rimbaud and Blake had an enormous impact on BP. Leonard Cohen's Beautiful Losers is like one fucked up poem (i'm sure Bono at least skimmed thru that one, being a devoted Cohen fan).

Anyway, that being said...which Bono lyrics post-POP do you think requires an education in Beat Poetry to understand?

Not talking to you, dear, as you can see in my post.

Anyway, my congrats for having met so many great writers that will surely enrich your life at all levels. I'm sorry I'm not going to answer your question, that's only because... that's my job and this is my hobby and because I was just suggesting another poster, not you, to read something I thought he could find significative.

I'm sure you will understand my position, I don't want to start a literature debate here, I don't think this is the right place to do it and I don't feel like it.
 
Fly33 said:
I completely agree. I like the 80s stuff too, but he wrote phenomenal lyrics in the 90s. Of the three decades, I think the 00's are the worst lyrically.

He just resorted to singing "Ohh" too much on NLOTH. Think about how many songs on that album where that's true. FEZ/Being Born would have been an epic song if he had just wrote a freakin' chorus...

Fez works terrifically without a lyrical chorus, it doesn't need lyrics.
 
Not talking to you, dear, as you can see in my post.

Anyway, my congrats for having met so many great writers that will surely enrich your life at all levels. I'm sorry I'm not going to answer your question, that's only because... that's my job and this is my hobby and because I was just suggesting another poster, not you, to read something I thought he could find significative.

I'm sure you will understand my position, I don't want to start a literature debate here, I don't think this is the right place to do it and I don't feel like it.

Wasn't looking for a debate, I was just curious...sorry if it came off that way.
 
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