The "3 crap records and your out" rule
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Earnie Shavers
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
You can hear the best thing they've done post-Pop somewhere in No Line. But they didn't (or more likely, didn't feel they could) go there.
I love your faith, I respect your opinion, but I think they peaked a long time ago. I will be 'happy' with another album with a track by track hit rate as good as No Line (mostly good, at some points great, only a few out and out crap - and they really should have seen those coming from a mile away). I would be ecstatic if I can hear them letting go on the next album. Even if it's not a classic. Even if they don't quite nail it. Just... don't care.
It's 8am here, I've just got home. London, I love you. My girlfriend is in bed. I'm lying on the couch listening to very very loud music because I'm still... awake. I just listened to The Fly and Magnificent back to back. In their individual ways, I do love them both. But I can hear so many better songs in Magnificent. I can't imagine the Fly being any better. Can you imagine Magnificent really slow, acoustic almost, bongos and shit? There are a million ways... Even if that weren't the song, it has a place on an album. It fits, but it's empty. How? And my point was - you can't even. The Fly is in another universe. Magnificent is very grounded. Very good and shiny. You can love it. It sounds great. I really like the album version. Bono and Edge brought nothing, but Eno and Will.i.Am making it something really lush. But it... they're not going to make another Achtung Baby. They're not. They could have made a great album. Evidently, they had the material and they worked against it. Go back. They're promoting No Line, and Bono is shitting on about this next album, this Songs of Ascent. IT DOESN'T EXIST - but that's what he believed in. It's sad. There's no Achtung coming. Just hope they let go this time, or at best, hope for a decent hit rate.
Niceman
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
That's a strange question. But I think Please, Wake Up Dead Man, If You Wear That Velvet Dress, Playboy Mansion, Staring at the Sun, If God would Send His Angels, Gone, Last Night on Earth, Mofo, Discotheque, Holy Joe, Miami & Do You Feel Loved have more timeless melodies than most of what's on ATYCLB -IMO. I'll remember them in 50 years and I hope to have forgotten about Walk On, New York, Grace, the album version of Elevation, the final verse of Kite, and When I Look at the Word.
Yes, the songs on ATYCLB are softer. But a lot of the melodies do feel forced. The words often feel crammed in. They were clearly having a harder time writing.
The Panther
Refugee
Respect your opinion, of course, but this is a somewhat odd comment. Firstly, "soft" or "loud" has nothing to do with melody, nor does "words". I also can't conceivably see how "Miami" can be said to have a strong melody. Not really the kind of thing people hum in an elevator...
Perhaps you misunderstand what "melody" means.
PennyLanePHINS
Refugee
I love ATYCLB. I really love all the albums, but that is in my top 3. It's the first album I got into with U2 (Thanks to a big presence of elevation on Tomb Raider, the 4 videos on MTV when they still showed videos, and Beautiful Day all over radio), came out when I was 12.
I feel like HTDAAB is very good, but the live performances of the songs are better than the studio. Love the Vertigo into they use now, and "Love and Peace or Else" Live from Chicago is amazing. Also, should have included "Mercy", had "Bad" potential.
I feel like HTDAAB is very good, but the live performances of the songs are better than the studio. Love the Vertigo into they use now, and "Love and Peace or Else" Live from Chicago is amazing. Also, should have included "Mercy", had "Bad" potential.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
The Panther said:
I'm thinking this is the case.
DevilsShoes
War Child
Whilst I agree that Magnificent is not one of the bands most substantial songs, I actually find it far more affecting than the likes of Vertigo, Elevation or City of Blinding Lights. To me, these tunes really are hollow, they're superficially exciting for their duration but leave you feeling a bit empty after they end. IMO Magnificent achieves that transcendent quality the band are constantly looking to capture far more successfully than many other attempts this decade, which all too often come off as feeling far too contrived and overwrought. I think maybe a certain lightness of touch has been lost somewhere.
But I would agree that the band are on the downside of their peak. If another masterpiece was going to occur, I think it would have been shortly after AB, when their instincts were at their sharpest, not 21 years down the line.
Hunger has to be a factor here too. In the early-mid eighties they were fueled by desperation and that bled into the work, creating some of their most compelling tunes. In the early nineties, they were reacting to the critical slating the press dished out and still had that overwhelming desire to change misconceptions and make the kind of music that had never been heard before. I was reading an interview with Bono around 89/90 and the guy sounds so restless, almost to the point of anger, he has still got so much left to prove. I think that restlessness has, understandably, been quelled somewhat.
In 2000/2001, the band were trying to prove they were still relevant, and by and large they succeeded, but it would be difficult to claim that the music on ATYCLB burns with quite the same intensity as their earlier work. They produced an album of decent if inoffensive songs, and that's pretty much been the case ever since.
I guess time catches up with everyone. Just take a look at John Lennon, a man whose best work pulsates with an unmatched life-force. Yet, his last album consists of a bunch of perfectly pleasant, but ultimately unremarkable numbers. It's difficult to believe that this is the same man who produced the likes of Working Class Hero, God and Cold Turkey. By 1980, he was content, he had a new son and his priorities had changed. Similar to U2 and countless others, his latter work, whilst often being very good, lacks quite the same conviction and power.
U2 have confounded expectations by re-inventing themselves twice with mass popular appeal. Can they really do it a third time? As far as I'm aware, no other mainstream band has ever managed it? U2 have been in uncharted territory for some time, so their next move should be very interesting.
But I would agree that the band are on the downside of their peak. If another masterpiece was going to occur, I think it would have been shortly after AB, when their instincts were at their sharpest, not 21 years down the line.
Hunger has to be a factor here too. In the early-mid eighties they were fueled by desperation and that bled into the work, creating some of their most compelling tunes. In the early nineties, they were reacting to the critical slating the press dished out and still had that overwhelming desire to change misconceptions and make the kind of music that had never been heard before. I was reading an interview with Bono around 89/90 and the guy sounds so restless, almost to the point of anger, he has still got so much left to prove. I think that restlessness has, understandably, been quelled somewhat.
In 2000/2001, the band were trying to prove they were still relevant, and by and large they succeeded, but it would be difficult to claim that the music on ATYCLB burns with quite the same intensity as their earlier work. They produced an album of decent if inoffensive songs, and that's pretty much been the case ever since.
I guess time catches up with everyone. Just take a look at John Lennon, a man whose best work pulsates with an unmatched life-force. Yet, his last album consists of a bunch of perfectly pleasant, but ultimately unremarkable numbers. It's difficult to believe that this is the same man who produced the likes of Working Class Hero, God and Cold Turkey. By 1980, he was content, he had a new son and his priorities had changed. Similar to U2 and countless others, his latter work, whilst often being very good, lacks quite the same conviction and power.
U2 have confounded expectations by re-inventing themselves twice with mass popular appeal. Can they really do it a third time? As far as I'm aware, no other mainstream band has ever managed it? U2 have been in uncharted territory for some time, so their next move should be very interesting.
cobl04
45:33
Swap Magnificent for COBL and you have my exact opinion. Not to mention that COBL is infinitely better live than Magnificent.
Niceman
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
No, I understand what melody means. I agree that soft has nothing to do with melody. However, I mention it as there are some who would have a harder time noticing the strength of the melody in a rocker than in a ballad. I was suggesting that that might lead one to rank the melodies in the ATYLCB songs higher than they deserve.
"I bought two new suits - Miami. Pink and blue - Miami. I took a picture of you - My Mammy. Getting hot in a photo booth, Miami..." Sorry, that's as strong a melody as anything on ATYCLB. Definitely hummable.
Niceman
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
I never seem to run into the second statement without the third...
cobl04
45:33
HTDAAB was the one that got me into them. But ATYCLB came not too long after, and I love it pretty much from start to finish.
The Panther
Refugee
Agree in general (as I usually do), but I also think "City of Blinding Lights" is quite a bit the better song than "Magnificent", although I like both. I concede that "City..." is more a triumph of craft than of inspiration (wasn't it around since the ATYCLB sessions?), but it is very, very good craft. I love the lyrics... which is maybe my only issue with "Magnificent". I understand that Edge wrote some of the lyrics, but I just don't think they're good.
There is something sexual about rock'n'roll. It's hard to play good, sexless rock (though The Smiths tried). When people get older, they generally get less sexy, and I would imagine it's harder to produce vital rock music past a certain age, particular when you're the world's biggest group and are guaranteed to be over-scrutinized for every little thing you do.
U2DMfan
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
It's not complicated. Either the songs resonate or they don't. U2 have been in 'old man mode' for a decade, they'll either move somewhere else, or they won't.
Niceman
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
DevilsShoes
War Child
COBL is definitely more effective as a live song. There's no question it'll find a place in any future setlists, whereas Magnificent will probably only come out once in a blue moon. It's chances aren't helped by the fact that the band couldn't seem to settle on a version they liked either, although I quite enjoyed the 'gospel' influence on the latter 2011 renditions. But I've been out of step with U2 fandom quite a bit this decade.
Fortunately, despite being in their Fifties now, the guys are still looking pretty good, if they were looking like Status Quo we'd be in all kinds of trouble. One of things that the band understood so well on the AB/ZOO TV campaign was how important sex appeal is in rock music. They kind of forgot this a bit during Popmart, but rediscovered it a little in time for Elevation.
What I really liked about the band during the nineties was their willingness to change their appearance with every album. The difference between ZOO TV and Popmart is night and day, but it showed that they were constantly evolving both musically and visually. This decade they've been far more consistent. I mean other than Bono's changing haircuts, the ATYCLB look is still evident now.
This could be a problem because people get bored of the old really quick. When you've had massive success, there's only so much time you have before you have to be seen to be re-inventing yourself. For Rattle and Hum, the audience kind of let the band get away with the fact that they hadn't really moved on much (either musically or visually) from The Joshua Tree, but there was definitely the sense that they'd better start coming up with a Plan B in time for the next album.
I think a similar thing happened with HTDAAB. They were still riding the wave of ATYCLB and the public went along with it, but once again, you can't escape the feeling that they'd stumbled down a blind alley and needed to come back with something totally fresh next time.
In 1991, they avoided an even bigger backlash by completely overhauling the whole operation, in 2009, they didn't. For the non-fan, all they saw was exactly the same band they'd seen at the start of the decade releasing a single that sounded not a million miles away from Vertigo, and then following it up with another single that sounded not a million miles away from COBL. For the public, the band hadn't really evolved at all.
They fell into the same kind of trap the likes of Oasis, and any other Britpop band you care to mention, fell into, essentially that they both look and sound exactly the same with every release. Pretty soon, people switch off and look for something different.
The question is, like Earnie pointed out, do they really have it in them to completely re-tool the whole thing from top to bottom again? It's a big ask at this stage in their career.
Eh, I think it's the closest they've come to being great in a long while. But even with Winter or Every breaking wave, I don't exactly hear the "wow" record some people refer to. It really is the sound of four guys "getting lost in the music" and not having a plan unlike previous U2 records. Still I would take it over solid song collections and hit and miss albums since AB.
Hopefully you were ok during the riots. It looked abysmal in the media...
I would sign up for another record as good as NLOTH. I just think they can do better than that. Once they lose the chimes and the pressure of hunting 11 singles, and especially once Bono gets a lyrical unifying theme for the album. I'm glad we have both Magnificent and The Fly from them.
doctorwho
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
It's interesting - I was thinking the same thing. Lennon's last album was very strong, but lyrically, not the same.
U2 are in the same position. They may once again have some hunger to have a top selling album, but at the time of NLOTH, they had succeeded on many levels.
That said, some of the songs on NLOTH are brilliant: NLOTH, MOS, White As Snow, Breathe, and Cedars of Lebanon. Add in a few tracks that were inexplicably left off, like Winter and Soon, and the album stands up to and even surpasses many of U2's best works. These songs tackle some dark issues. There's passion, there's emotion and there's outstanding music.
I would add Magnificent to that list. There's nothing wrong with a solid song that is a bit "pop" like. Pride, Desire and Mysterious Ways all fit into this category.
Comparing Magnificent to The Fly is like comparing guava fruit to a chocolate shake. Both are delicious, but not when combined. Magificent is better compared to Mysterious Ways. Both songs were designed to be a solid hit single. The numerous remixes for Mysterious Ways, including U2's own live version back in the ZOO era, show how different this song could be. That's both a strength and a weakness - it shows how others can interpret U2's music, but it makes one question if U2 really found the best sound for that particular song.
Some look at the weaknesses on NLOTH, but time has allowed us to forgive the weaknesses on JT and AB. There are some questionable songs on all of U2's albums. We've had 20 years for AB to grow on us. NLOTH has had 2. Maybe in another 18 years, we'll be just as fond of NLOTH. I, for one, am already far fonder of NLOTH than I am of many U2 albums.
The Panther
Refugee
I think the difference here is basically vitality vs. seasoned-maturity. Vitality is always good in rock'n'roll, and it's always good in general. Anyone, of any age, can respond viscerally to vitality in music. You hear it in Bono's voice in "Bad" or "Pride".
Seasoned-maturity also has its place, of course, but it's not something that appeals to everyone. It tends to appeal to seasoned, mature people.
As a comparable example, consider my appreciation of Bob Dylan's music. Pretty much everyone, aged 10 to 70, agrees his 1962 to 1966 records are classics. But even though I listened to Dylan from the womb, I didn't come to appreciate his 1967 to 1976 stuff until I was well over 20 years old. And I didn't even bother with his 1978 and later stuff until I was 30. By the time I'm 40 or 50, I'll probably appreciate stuff like Time out of Mind more than I do now.
Anyway, U2 are doing well, but I think they waste too much time trying to recapture youthful vitality. When they relax into who they are, the results are great. When they try to capture youthful sexiness at age 50, the result is "Get on Your Boots".
Seasoned-maturity also has its place, of course, but it's not something that appeals to everyone. It tends to appeal to seasoned, mature people.
As a comparable example, consider my appreciation of Bob Dylan's music. Pretty much everyone, aged 10 to 70, agrees his 1962 to 1966 records are classics. But even though I listened to Dylan from the womb, I didn't come to appreciate his 1967 to 1976 stuff until I was well over 20 years old. And I didn't even bother with his 1978 and later stuff until I was 30. By the time I'm 40 or 50, I'll probably appreciate stuff like Time out of Mind more than I do now.
Anyway, U2 are doing well, but I think they waste too much time trying to recapture youthful vitality. When they relax into who they are, the results are great. When they try to capture youthful sexiness at age 50, the result is "Get on Your Boots".
hatrickpatrick
The Fly
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WTF
No Line on the Horizon was probably the all around best U2 album since the Achtung Baby / Zooropa days. Am I HONESTLY the only one who thinkgs this?
I actually have a fairly in depth theory about this which I'll summarize as possible:
Edge always said they had a massive debate about the guitar style used in "Beautiful Day" and whether using the old chime and delay was a "step backwards".
It almost feels to me like they took a chance with that and it worked, Beautiful Day probably got an amazing reaction. So then when they released Atomic Bomb, they tried it a little bit more on several songs, most notably City of Blinding Lights and All Because of You (and for a few bars in Vertigo)
They got great reactions too so then for No Line on the Horizon they finally decided to go all out and completely bring the sound back. Almost every song on that album sounds like "classic U2". Breathe, Magnificent, Unknown Caller, and one or two others are songs for which I use the exact same effect/delay rig as I would for Streets or Still haven't found.
IMO, Horizon is an absolutely incredible album and a "back to roots" type album. If they keep going along that vein (which from the sound of the few songs we've heard from Songs of Ascent, they probably will) I don't think they have anything to worry about at all.
TBH I don't even think the 90s stuff was "crap". I think they perhaps just made the mistake of straying TOO far from the style which made them so amazing in the first place. That was probably down to the awful "damned if you do or don't" media BS where if you stick with your own original sound you become a "one trick pony" and "boring", but if you try something new you've "sold out" or "lost your way".
No Line on the Horizon strikes a perfect balance. I hope they keep going in that direction tbh.
doctorwho
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
You are not alone. It's been 2.5 years since NLOTH was release and NLOTH has remained in my top 3 of U2 albums. The others are AB and TUF.
And your last line summarizes it perfectly. NLOTH has the best of the "classic" U2 sound, but it is modernized for today's world. I don't think a 1987 U2 could have written MOS, so the maturity helps tremendously in the music.
While I love following charts and sales, sometimes I think too much is made of this. NLOTH still was #1 and still went Platinum. Precious few artists have had all of their albums go Platinum. Even if GOYB was a hit, NLOTH may have at best been 2X Platinum. Downloading - legal and illegal - has changed a lot about the music world.
Niceman
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
I still rank NLOTH as their third best album, but POP and UF are eyeing it.
NLOTH (song), MOS and Cedars are hands down their three best songs of the last decade. Never liked Breathe (Bono's Dylan-esque 'street poetry' puts me off) and Fantabulous is not worthy of washing The Fly's feet. Also, any U2 album with songs like Get On Your Boots, SUCk and Cwazy Tonight automatically demotes it out of the top 5 best U2 albums imo.
The Panther
Refugee
Yep. (I might add -- "pushes it down to the bottom of the list")
The Panther
Refugee
But I think some of us -- probably not you -- would argue that those 3 songs are not mediocre -- they're awful. In addition to those 3, there are then further songs that are mediocre on NLOTH. At that point, at least half the album is sub-par in my opinion. I mean, there are only 11 tracks.
Boots is the weakest link. You can feel how they thought they had another Vertigo on their hands...
Crazy, while out of place on something like NLOTH, is good enough at being a pop song.
SUC, it's a good riff. Should have been played live. It's bizzare with the above two this one gets so much hate.
Crazy, while out of place on something like NLOTH, is good enough at being a pop song.
SUC, it's a good riff. Should have been played live. It's bizzare with the above two this one gets so much hate.
Niceman
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
I like every song on NLOTH. But that doesn't mean they picked the right singles.
catlhere
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
Yeah every U2 album has 1 song (or more) that doesn't stand up or fit with the rest of the album. Even Achtung. AB definitely has a mediocre track and I enjoy Elevation, Vertigo, and Crazy Tonight a LOT more than said track. I don't care who knows it! 
I hope they continue on in the NLOTH vein. As long as it's not another Pop I'm good.
I hope they continue on in the NLOTH vein. As long as it's not another Pop I'm good.
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