Spiderman Discussion - Part III

[doctorwho]

Do yourself a favour and look up "dramatic irony"

*races to dictionary.com

*stops for a sandwich

*takes nap

*sends some texts

*watches TV

*finally races to dictionary.com.

dramatic irony 
irony that is inherent in speeches or a situation of a drama and is understood by the audience but not grasped by the characters in the play.



I'm gonna take a wild and crazy guess and state that U2 knew exactly what they were doing on stage (i.e., they fully grasped their actions).

Now, let's get to irony:

irony
the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning

Where was the irony in Zoo TV?

That U2 portrayed themselves as rich, uncaring, arrogant rock stars when in reality they cared quite a bit?

That U2 mocked the very items that they and their audience adored?

That the audience agreed with said mocking only to then go out and do (or purchase) the very items that were mocked?

These and perhaps other examples are, by definition, irony. I accept that.

But the performance is hardly "dripping with irony". It's more "irony 101" - very tongue-in-cheek, everyone's in on the joke type of mocking.

Was Zoo TV a great show? AND HOW! After I saw it, I told friends I could die a happy man now. But never did the words "ironic" escape my lips.

Was the music from the Zoo time frame brilliant? YES! If you've followed my posts for a while, you know that TUF and AB rank as my favorite U2 albums. To this day, I'm stunned AB didn't win the "Album of the Year" Grammy.

But was Zoo TV so really "dramatically ironic" or avant garde? Eh. U2's concept was a modern spin on ideas done by other artists, who arguably did it better. In fact, one of the biggest criticisms of Zoo TV is that it detracted from the absolutely brilliant music. And, to some extent, I agree.

Sorry DW, nothing personal...you've just touched on a pet-peeve of mine. About re-writing U2's history to make the present form of U2 more digestible.

"Revisionist history". Phewy. I contend that many here have allowed time to create fond memories of the past. That is, you forgot what was bad in favor of the good. There were quite a few complaints about that era in U2's career.

But am I using that to justify to praise U2's current work? There are numerous issues with current U2, just as there were with U2 of the 80's and 90's.

One of my biggest gripes about current U2 is this desire to be the "biggest band". What defines "biggest"? Album sales? Hit songs? Huge concert grosses? Awards? Critical praise? Gee... that all sounds so... superficial. And that is the true irony - a band that is known for their charitable work and Christian beliefs is wrapped up in something this materialistic.

I accepted ATYCLB as a nice change - at least on the first half of the CD. By the second half, I started losing interest. HTDAAB had some moments of brilliance, but felt kind of "rinse and repeat" to me.

Still, some of that brilliance continued on NLOTH. U2 did stumble with some tracks (GOYB, CT, etc.) but the brilliance of the title track, MOS, Breathe, etc. more than made up for it. And that's why I enjoy the album so much. This was the first time since "Pop" that I felt U2 really pushed themselves and made a strong album.

Back to irony. Perhaps it's a matter of taste. I saw Zoo TV and PopMart as a "ha ha - we're mocking you" type of performance. I got it and enjoyed it, but I didn't think it was all that ironic. I'll accept that's just my view.

I do enjoy the 360 tour because U2 openly admit it's huge and it's in your face. It also works. There's a charm to that sort of honesty. As a result, I feel this is one of their best tours. The shocking difference of Zoo TV still makes it my favorite tour. The brilliance of 360 has it as my second favorite. The intimacy of Elevation ranks third.

Now, what has all of this to do with Spider-Man? I don't know.

After years of Platinum albums, big hit songs, long successful tours, and enough awards to fill multiple cabinets, U2 decided to do something different. I applaud that. The project may ultimately flop, but why not go for it? At their ages, they've done as much as they can in their world. Because producing another album with another tour is getting "old".

 

[mobvok]

dramatic irony 
irony that is inherent in speeches or a situation of a drama and is understood by the audience but not grasped by the characters in the play


I'm gonna take a wild and crazy guess and state that U2 knew exactly what they were doing on stage (i.e., they fully grasped their actions).

Wouldn't the relevant connection be U2 as actors on stage?

 

[Jive Turkey]

tl: dr

Which is exactly why they were playing characters on stage. Of course U2 knew what their motivations were. Nobody said they didn't and the fact that you're implying that shows you still dont grasp it. What do you think the purpose of The Fly character was? The irony lies in the fact that the audience is in on the joke, but the characters on stage are not. And before you bring up the lack of characters in Popmart, the irony there was slightly different. It was more of a self aware irony. The same type of irony that causes hipsters to grow ridiculous mustaches and wear tshirts with their own faces on them

 

[PhilsFan]

That was an incredibly long post detailing the irony of ZooTV in order to come to the conclusion that it wasn't ironic.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Ironic, isn't it

 

[Jive Turkey]

don't ya think?

 

[Inner El Guapo]

Since I first took issue, I feel compelled to respond even though Jive Turkey pretty much covered it. I guess I'll offer a specific example.

Perhaps it's a matter of taste

No. Really it's not. It's sort of like understanding that when Jerry Seinfeld wrote material for himself in Seinfeld as the character "Jerry Seinfeld", that while he was supposed to be playing 'himself' he was aware he was playing the character of 'himself'.

So he could make statements as "Seinfeld" by playing directly to impressions/expectations of his actual real-life self or further away from them - that is one form of dramatic irony in a nutshell.

The greatest irony of all, JMO, regarding ZOOTv were the masses of people who actually thought it was straightforward. This is also intrinsically part of the concept because that reaction was always going to be inevitable. The joke was on the people that the joke was aimed at. It's sort of like Sasha Baron Cohen as Borat being faux-anti-semitic (also ironic in that he's Jewish) along with a group of people and trying to illicit a 'positive' response from them (he also do it with some rednecks using homophobia).

Those who thought U2 were really 'rock-starring the fuck out of the joint' - the joke was on you. But that wasn't the only thing going on- that's why it is so baffling to believe that somehow ZooTv wasn't ironic or even POPmart - I'll give all of you a dissertation - if you want it - why POPmart was perhaps the more clever concept. Which is probably why it didn't work as well in the U.S.

Anyhow, I remember back in 1992/93, working at a grocery store with some dude, a cool guy and a very nice guy, but he was a straight-up butt rocker from the 80's. He couldn't grasp the idea that U2 were playing themselves as "rock stars" to make a point. Some people can't grasp irony. That's not a sin.

Of course now it's all people do...back when I was in junior high and high school late 80's to early 90's, my whole group of friends were 'ironic' all the time, sarcastic, playing "ourselves" as exaggerations or parodies of 'ourselves' (as we were perceived)...we didn't know what to call it, we were just stupid dork kids. Nobody else really got it other than groups of other dork kids. We also just knew it was fucking funny. 15/20 years later it is the thing to do. Of course that's probably because a lot of my generation are writing the music and the comedy of today.

 

[mobvok]

I was watching the local news at a teriyaki restaurant this evening, and they showed a segment on Spiderman.

The sound was off so I couldn't hear what they were saying, but it looked like a montage of ambulances driving away.

 

[GirlsAloudFan]

During Weekend Update on SNL tonight, Kristen Wiig came out as Julie Taymor and they did their little faux-interview comedy bit about the whole ordeal.

There was a lot of loudness in the apartment at the time, people chattering and carousing and what not, so I couldn't hear all that much even though I was trying to pay attention. I was able to make out the end where Wiig sang a song called "Rise Above" (with no similarities to the actual song from the musical) with goofy lyrics about Spiderman.

 

[Jen McColley]

Went to see the show yesterday. It was good, but it wasn't great. If you saw 'Across the Universe' then you see A LOT of similarities. For example, in the movie, the "I Want You" military scene - almost the SAME thing in the show. There are other scenes that should be scrapped, and really that's exactly what they are talking about doing. They are very close to having something amazing. The visual stunt work is unlike anything I've seen on Broadway. Its fantastic (minus the stuck actors that is) and then the scenes and props (except for a couple of hokey ones) are really just beautiful.

'Boy Falls From the Sky works really well too. The guitar riff is played whenever Spidey is going to fly an overall its the best song in the show. OK second best, in one scene Peter Parker and Mary Jane are in a dance club and they blast 'Vertigo'. That was nice...

Overall the best way to describe the show is disjointed. They can do it, its close...

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Boy falls from the sky is played when spidey flies... now THAT is some irony.

 

[mama cass]

rumour has it (according to Riedel's latest column) that Taymor is threatening to take the script with her...

probably not a bad thing!

but if that were indeed the case, they would definitely need to close for much much longer, i reckon...

 

[mama cass]

I was watching the local news at a teriyaki restaurant this evening, and they showed a segment on Spiderman.

The sound was off so I couldn't hear what they were saying, but it looked like a montage of ambulances driving away.

no idea! haven't seen any reports of further accidents, so i imagine it was probably old footage from Christopher Tierney's accident... probably a "this show has been plagued with problems" type of report...

 

[mama cass]

Boy falls from the sky is played when spidey flies... now THAT is some irony.

are they trying to scare the audience or what?!

 

[mama cass]

If you saw 'Across the Universe' then you see A LOT of similarities.

oh damn... that is not a good thing...

 

[Drowningman]

Kristin Wiig played Julie Taymor on last night's Saturday Night Live. Just a very short impression during the Weekend Update news segment

Have to say, it was pretty amusing. She kept changing the subject to The Lion King everytime Spiderman was brought up

 

[BVS]

Since I first took issue, I feel compelled to respond even though Jive Turkey pretty much covered it. I guess I'll offer a specific example.



No. Really it's not. It's sort of like understanding that when Jerry Seinfeld wrote material for himself in Seinfeld as the character "Jerry Seinfeld", that while he was supposed to be playing 'himself' he was aware he was playing the character of 'himself'.

So he could make statements as "Seinfeld" by playing directly to impressions/expectations of his actual real-life self or further away from them - that is one form of dramatic irony in a nutshell.

The greatest irony of all, JMO, regarding ZOOTv were the masses of people who actually thought it was straightforward. This is also intrinsically part of the concept because that reaction was always going to be inevitable. The joke was on the people that the joke was aimed at. It's sort of like Sasha Baron Cohen as Borat being faux-anti-semitic (also ironic in that he's Jewish) along with a group of people and trying to illicit a 'positive' response from them (he also do it with some rednecks using homophobia).

Those who thought U2 were really 'rock-starring the fuck out of the joint' - the joke was on you. But that wasn't the only thing going on- that's why it is so baffling to believe that somehow ZooTv wasn't ironic or even POPmart - I'll give all of you a dissertation - if you want it - why POPmart was perhaps the more clever concept. Which is probably why it didn't work as well in the U.S.

Anyhow, I remember back in 1992/93, working at a grocery store with some dude, a cool guy and a very nice guy, but he was a straight-up butt rocker from the 80's. He couldn't grasp the idea that U2 were playing themselves as "rock stars" to make a point. Some people can't grasp irony. That's not a sin.

Of course now it's all people do...back when I was in junior high and high school late 80's to early 90's, my whole group of friends were 'ironic' all the time, sarcastic, playing "ourselves" as exaggerations or parodies of 'ourselves' (as we were perceived)...we didn't know what to call it, we were just stupid dork kids. Nobody else really got it other than groups of other dork kids. We also just knew it was fucking funny. 15/20 years later it is the thing to do. Of course that's probably because a lot of my generation are writing the music and the comedy of today.

So is this you, or are you playing yourself?

 

[Val]

Saw the show last night, and I agree with Jen.
I enjoyed it very much. The majority of the sets were done well. The costumes (except for a few of the high school kids) were wonderful, and the aerial stunts were breathtaking. No stoppage at all. Really crowd pleasing. Some of the scenes were breathtaking.
The script needs some work, but it's so doable.
I'm glad to hear some new songs are coming in, as there are a few that are just not memorable like a Broadway show demands.
I think this show is 87% there, and it's going to succeed.

 

[dazzledbylight]

Kristin Wiig played Julie Taymor on last night's Saturday Night Live. Just a very short impression during the Weekend Update news segment

Have to say, it was pretty amusing. She kept changing the subject to The Lion King everytime Spiderman was brought up

I'm particullarly laughing becuase about 2 weeks or so ago - here in the NYC Subways-- Posters for THE LION KING suddenly started doubling/tripling in amount put up!

i hope they can really pull it off!

 

[corianderstem]

In this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/t...ll-the-wrong-reasons.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Is this sidebar:

Where's Bono? - NYTimes.com

I don't know why I find that so funny. He hasn't been here, like a composer should. What has he been doing??? Leading a rock band! Dining with world leaders!

Feb 21: South African tour is over, Bono's whereabouts are not clear.

It's a like a time frame of a crime spree or something.

The New York Times: stalking Bono since November 2010.

And during much of the preview period, the longest in history, the show’s composers, Bono and the Edge of U2, who had never before written a musical, were on tour rather than locked in the theater working on revisions.

I mean, I guess I can see the point. Maybe they didn't have a clear idea of how much would be asked of them, or maybe they had no idea they'd need revisions to this extent, music or plot.

But "locked in the theater"? Stalking Bono? Overwrought much?

 

[mama cass]

their absences have been a huge problem... normally composers work very closely with cast and crew... their involvement is key... that's why i think they've done a pretty shoddy part-time job with this thing - they've not been able to commit 100%, which is what is normally expected of composers...

of course when the show is perfected and up and running, that's a different matter, but the rehearsals and previews are critical times when the composers need to be there...

Taymor's comments about the Geek chorus were scary though! so i guess that's confirmation that Bono and Edge were indeed heavily involved in writing the book!

Ms. Taymor is known for an energetic devotion to her own ideas, which tend to be visually arresting, not necessarily narratively coherent. In a review in The Times of her latest film, “The Tempest,” the critic A. O. Scott said her directorial ideas “slosh around.” One of her inventions for “Spider-Man” was a Geek Chorus, four comic-book buffs who create the musical’s narrative on the spot. Critics trashed the device, one calling it “utterly superfluous.”

The Geeks distract the audience while sets are being changed, but their hold on Ms. Taymor was more personal. She said the foursome stood for Bono, the Edge, Mr. Berger and herself. She, for example, is the smart, tomboyish character named Miss Arrow, who knows a lot about myth; Bono is the overenthusiastic Jimmy-6.

“We would be at Bono’s house in France or another one of our places,” she said this winter, “the four of us all tossing out ideas and setting up tape recorders to make sure our thoughts were captured. We were like our own geek band. And we loved having that spirit in the show.”

 

[powerhour24]

Well, their involvement in the development was at it's highest way back before 360 even started, they aren't entirely to blame for the delays that made the show's biggest time of need coincide with the biggest tour in history.

 

[corianderstem]

I know some of the tour was unpredictable, with his back surgery and subsequent tour extension, but it's not like it was a secret they would need to be gone for the better part of two years. Were they just crazily overconfident in the show and assumed they wouldn't be needed to be on hand, or was it a given that this would be out of the norm and the composers would not be able to be there, and all involved were okay with that?

What were the alternatives if there was someone along the line who said "Hey, this isn't okay for them to be gone that long"?

I guess this sort of thing is going to be par for the course now that Bono's the "public face" of the production.

Good luck with that, bub.

 

[mama cass]

Well, their involvement in the development was at it's highest way back before 360 even started, they aren't entirely to blame for the delays that made the show's biggest time of need coincide with the biggest tour in history.

yeah sure, but would they ever have been available enough to commit 100% over such a long period as would be required for something on this scale?

i very much doubt it...

 

[mama cass]

Were they just crazily overconfident in the show and assumed they wouldn't be needed to be on hand, or was it a given that this would be out of the norm and the composers would not be able to be there, and all involved were okay with that?

What were the alternatives if there was someone along the line who said "Hey, this isn't okay for them to be gone that long"?

well, i guess if they were the ones heading up this thing, they could do what they want... and they did! there was no-one there keeping any of them (Bono, Edge and Taymor) in line by the looks of things... which should normally be the producers' job at least...

 

[corianderstem]

Either poor planning, poor management, or a little too much of "oh, it'll be fine."

Maybe a little of all three.

When was the original opening date supposed to be? I'm sure no one had any idea things could go this much out of whack. Maybe planning for the original opening date, things lined up as they were supposed to, and they were on hand. When things got pushed back, it's not like they could demand Bono not have surgery or stop the U2 tour to make Spiderman take priority.

 

[mama cass]

i think it was meant to open in Feb 2010, so it looks like it would have coincided with a good break between tour legs - maybe that was deliberately planned so they'd have time to work on the show and attend previews/opening? they could've had four months to work on Spider-Man at that point, which would've been a fairly decent amount of time had things gone smoothly, depending on their other commitments obviously... i don't know what else they had going on at that point... in the studio? Bono's advocacy work? etc...

 

[mama cass]

Saw the show last night, and I agree with Jen.
I enjoyed it very much. The majority of the sets were done well. The costumes (except for a few of the high school kids) were wonderful, and the aerial stunts were breathtaking. No stoppage at all. Really crowd pleasing. Some of the scenes were breathtaking.
The script needs some work, but it's so doable.
I'm glad to hear some new songs are coming in, as there are a few that are just not memorable like a Broadway show demands.
I think this show is 87% there, and it's going to succeed.

glad you had a good time!

i hope they can pull it together against all odds...

 

[corianderstem]

Ah, February 2010. Yeah, I guess that really would have led to more direct involvement. I guess it only goes to show you can't plan for everything.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

I think when thy started out they couldn't possibly have envisioned all the delays and thought they'd easily have enough time to balance everything out.