POP is good, but here's how it could've been great

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pcfitz80

The Fly
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
115
I’m not trying to be a POP basher here because I know a lot of people like it but I think there are specific reasons why this album was a disappointment for many.

The album has a lot of strong songs with real potential that if done just a bit better could have been some of the best of their career. As it is, most of the tunes are good and it is a record I’ll play for time to time even though its not my favorite. Just wanted to mention that since this is intended to be a balanced and specific look at a pretty good album by a really, really great band, not a U2 bashing thread by a troll!

The album is real upbeat, rocking, and guitar driven. The way it lacks is that the songs are missing that extra something that makes them interesting and have lasting power – few have complex interludes or guitar solos or interesting key changes. Also, on some songs the guitar is drowned out by the drums and/or synthesizers. MOFO and LNOE are good examples of this. Finally, a couple key substitutions in the tracks would’ve made a huge difference.

The following new track list and changes details a better POP IMHO:
Hold Me Thrill Me Kiss Me Kill Me – lead single instead of Discotheque!
Holey Joe (garage mix)
MOFO (better mix a little more like live version)
If God Will Send His Angels
Staring at The Sun
Last Night On earth
– better mix - better guitar sound like done live with the “chuckawawa..” sound in the riff following the “living like it’s the last night on earth” part, extended solo, better interlude like on single version
Discotheque
Do Your Feel Loved
– Better mix – the existing one mixes the 80s U2 with the 90s U2 a little like oil and water and hurts what could‘ve been one of U2s best songs. As is, still fairly good. But it sounds very pasted together and not like “4 guys playing together in a room” . IMO, it is this song that best represents the albums strengths ( strong rocking tunes) and weaknesses ( poor production; poor meshing together of the various musical influences, a little too “processed” and electronic)
Gone – better mix like on best of CD
Velvet Dress
Please
– single mix – this version is much more anathematic like the live version. The existing one on the album is too poppy.
Wake Up Dead Man

just to further explain some of the earlier points, compare LNOE to a similar type rock/pop song from ATYCLB - Walk On. Both are great tunes, both combine a more classic 80s U2 sound with post AB incfluences. But Walk On has that “4 guys together in a room” sound more like a live performance in the studio and a much more prominent and complete guitar part with the solo. LNOE falls a bit flat in the studio and sounds all pasted together and too processed. And the main guitar riff is a bit feeble - especially compared to the live versions. But live, I’d take it over Walk On any day! A similar comparison could be made between “Gone” and “Kite”…

In other words, where the album suffers, it is NOT because the songs are not great as shown by how awesome some of the live performances became! it's about how they were done in the studio
 
In other words, take everything out that sounds like an experimental band, and replace with traditional rock arrangements.

Uh, no thanks...
 
Pop probably needed only three things:

- A 10% clean up. That fabled extra month, or probably even less. The songs are fine, their sounds and structures etc, but the glaring rushed mixing/editing mistakes aren’t.

- Wherever the dance record/techno album talk began, muzzle it there and then. It’s neither, it’s a 95% balls to the wall rock album, but to this day people still call it the ‘dance’ U2 album. Massive mistake that really hurt it, and still hurts it to this day.

- Given that it was 1997 and the worst thing you could be at that time was a huge, ambitious stadium rock act, they might have totally re-written their history if they’d started Popmart off as they did ZooTV – with an arena leg of the US. Putting the songs in that setting first would have been great, for starters, that focus would have really, really helped them, and it would have given them a more humble air that would have to some degree held off the knives that were absolutely waiting for them regardless of it and the albums success or failure.

That, and the Village People outfits.
 
Hold Me Thrill Me Kiss Me Kill Me was a song from Batman Forever off a soundtrack that came about 2 years b4 POP was released. What a fresh start that would've been, a 2 year old radio song as the lead off single (re-single) off U2's newest album! Great idea.

The original version of Gone fits in better with the weird spacey arrangements to be found on POP.

Your comments on Do You Feel Loved are pretty telling, considering you find the electronic influences to be a problem. That to me sums it up: You aren't a fan of electronic U2. I get it.

Please is too poppy? Compared to what...the single version with the shlocky swirling strings and the more in-your-face anthemic choruses? Uhhh, yea ok. Keep thinking that.

The only things I'll give you on this "revised" album are the better MOFO production (unless by that you mean getting rid of the techno influences) and the presence of Holy Joe Garage Mix.

My only addittion to this would be including "I'm Not Your Baby" - a lesser known U2 hip-hop classic with Sinead O'Connor.
 
I do vastly prefer the single versions of IGWSHA and Please :yes:

I can honestly say that I didn't like either version of "Angels." It's the only Pop cut that I really don't care for. It's not terrible. Just never get excited about it.
 
I should've clarified - I meant they should have not used it for Batman and saved it for POP because yes, I agree - it would not have been good fresh start to used a previously released song as a lead single for new album.
 
Last Night On earth [/B]– better mix - better guitar sound like done live with the “chuckawawa..” sound in the riff following the “living like it’s the last night on earth” part, extended solo, better interlude like on single version

I thought this song is FINE as is. They should sing it live again:drool:
 
In other words, take everything out that sounds like an experimental band, and replace with traditional rock arrangements.

Uh, no thanks...

Nope, didn't say that at all. experimentation is good! I for one really like NLOTH and it is more experimental than the more traditional ATYCLB which I don't care for as much. Also I would argue Zooropa is far more experimental than POP and I like it better. My point was that the way the more experimental elements mix with the traditional elements could have been done better. Like has been said before and in some of the other replies, it comes down mainly to the production and mixing. These aspects were rushed - the band even admits it.
 
Pop is fine as it is, don't know why people are obsessed with changing it.

It's not their best album, but IMO it holds up very well 12 years later.
 
My issue/frustration with POP was that some of the single cuts were much better than the album tracks. For example, If God will send his Angels single was sooo much better than the album cut. Also, the Please single (strings version) was miles better than the album cut. Last Night on Earth....was different on the single but not necessarily better or worse than the album cut (Sun and Disco were the same as the album). I also think Hold Me, Kiss Me, Kill me would have fit great on this album!

oh, and no Holy Joe.........
 
Ive always thought Hold me should have been saved for POP too, but fuck it. POP could have been a masteriec, but it wasnt. It was still the second U2 i fell for after AB. POP and the following tour forever separated U2 from the rest of the pack, hit or miss the album is a statement.
 
Any fantasy versions of Pop without North and South of the River are pointless.

And I like the idea of throwing I'm Not Your Baby on there as well.
 
Hold Me Thrill Me Kiss Me Kill Me was a song from Batman Forever off a soundtrack that came about 2 years b4 POP was released. What a fresh start that would've been, a 2 year old radio song as the lead off single (re-single) off U2's newest album! Great idea.

i was under the impression the original poster was of the thought saying to save hold me thrill me kiss me kill me for pop instead of using it for batman, and making it the lead single.
 
I want to hear this previously unknown U2 song, "Holey" Joe.
 
I wouldn't have Hold Me Thrill Me Kiss Me Kill Me as the first single, but I would have it on the album (because really, who'd re-release a single two years after its original release?). I would have proceeded to put Last Night On Earth as the first single (sounding more like the live version). Also, Miami would be more like the live version, too. Please would be just like the single version, only without any wah-wah guitar/envelope filter guitar effects. My tracklisting would be as follows:

01. Hold Me Thrill Me Kiss Me Kill Me
02. Last Night On Earth*
03. Discotheque***
04. Holy Joe
05. Do You Feel Loved?
06. Mofo
07. Miami
08. Staring At The Sun
09. Gone**
10. If You Wear That Velvet Dress
11. Please****
12. Wake Up Dead Man

* first single
** second single
*** third single
**** fourth single

b-sides:
North and South of the River
I'm Not Your Baby (the version with Bono and Sinead O'Connor in duet)
Two Shots of Happy One Shot of Sad
The Playboy Mansion
If God Will Send His Angels
Happiness is a Warm Gun
Pop Music
 
I’m not trying to be a POP basher here because I know a lot of people like it but I think there are specific reasons why this album was a disappointment for many.

The album has a lot of strong songs with real potential that if done just a bit better could have been some of the best of their career. As it is, most of the tunes are good and it is a record I’ll play for time to time even though its not my favorite. Just wanted to mention that since this is intended to be a balanced and specific look at a pretty good album by a really, really great band, not a U2 bashing thread by a troll!

The album is real upbeat, rocking, and guitar driven. The way it lacks is that the songs are missing that extra something that makes them interesting and have lasting power – few have complex interludes or guitar solos or interesting key changes. Also, on some songs the guitar is drowned out by the drums and/or synthesizers. MOFO and LNOE are good examples of this. Finally, a couple key substitutions in the tracks would’ve made a huge difference.

The following new track list and changes details a better POP IMHO:
Hold Me Thrill Me Kiss Me Kill Me – lead single instead of Discotheque!
Holey Joe (garage mix)
MOFO (better mix a little more like live version)
If God Will Send His Angels
Staring at The Sun
Last Night On earth
– better mix - better guitar sound like done live with the “chuckawawa..” sound in the riff following the “living like it’s the last night on earth” part, extended solo, better interlude like on single version
Discotheque
Do Your Feel Loved
– Better mix – the existing one mixes the 80s U2 with the 90s U2 a little like oil and water and hurts what could‘ve been one of U2s best songs. As is, still fairly good. But it sounds very pasted together and not like “4 guys playing together in a room” . IMO, it is this song that best represents the albums strengths ( strong rocking tunes) and weaknesses ( poor production; poor meshing together of the various musical influences, a little too “processed” and electronic)
Gone – better mix like on best of CD
Velvet Dress
Please
– single mix – this version is much more anathematic like the live version. The existing one on the album is too poppy.
Wake Up Dead Man

just to further explain some of the earlier points, compare LNOE to a similar type rock/pop song from ATYCLB - Walk On. Both are great tunes, both combine a more classic 80s U2 sound with post AB incfluences. But Walk On has that “4 guys together in a room” sound more like a live performance in the studio and a much more prominent and complete guitar part with the solo. LNOE falls a bit flat in the studio and sounds all pasted together and too processed. And the main guitar riff is a bit feeble - especially compared to the live versions. But live, I’d take it over Walk On any day! A similar comparison could be made between “Gone” and “Kite”…

In other words, where the album suffers, it is NOT because the songs are not great as shown by how awesome some of the live performances became! it's about how they were done in the studio

First of all, can I just say congrats to pcfitz80 on making a very nice, intelligent, post (a rarity on this forum).

Second, can I say shame on Brian C, Ernie Shavers, and Ozeeko for crapping all over this excellent post, which is more intelligent and articulate than anything the three of you combined have probably ever posted. (For example, it was obvious that pcfitz80 wasn't suggesting to re-release "Hold Me, Thrill Me..." two years later, but rather to save it for the next project (which was Pop); likewise, after he went out of his way to emphasize that he does think Pop is a great record as is, you all accuse him of trying to suck all the dance-elements out of it, something he clearly wasn't suggesting.) Then, to kick him when he's down, Axver, like the obsessive compulsive he is, makes fun of his spelling, as if that mattered... F***! You knobs sure know how to scare the intelligent people away from this forum before they've even got used to it.

Now, to get back to his post...

I pretty much agree with 100% of what pcfitz80 says above. I also like the proposed tracklisting. I concur with his analysis of "Do You Feel Loved" -- it is indeed symptomatic of the album as a whole. It's a great song, a good track. . . but something is missing, which is also how you could describe Pop in general.

It's been discussed many times, and pcfitz80 explained his take on it well, but I think, in the end, Pop is the rare U2 album where they just didn't realize the songs in the studio. Even on the early albums -- although the live versions were often better or more exciting -- the studio cuts always captured the songs well. But there were definitely production/mixing issues with Pop, and probably a confused sense of purpose from the band (despite the outstanding songs).

Anyway, excellent post by pcfitz80!!!
 
...I thought my post was pretty intelligent, too. But I guess I don't matter enough to warrant mention. Oh well.

/egomaniac
 
I'm disappointed 65980 didn't slag me off! Am I too far beneath his high horse for him to see me?
 
Oh, then I'll kick 65980 for not bolding my screen name. I guess I'm too far beneath his high horse to earn that privilege! I just skimmed his post for the bolded names because his self-important contributions aren't really worth reading in full. :happy:
 
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