"Killing Bono" The Movie: coming in October

[theedgeu2]

Bigger range does not necessarily mean better singer. Someone without a big range but with great pitch, technique, and phrasing can be far ahead of someone with just a huge range. But each person is unique and does their own thing. Honestly I don't view this whole singing thing as a competition of sorts. Just go up and sing it the way you know is best.

 

[BVS]

I produce loud screams whilst i'm having sex, does this make me a better singer then you?

No. Whether you're a good singer or not is a fact, not an opinion.

Bono produces a better tone than him because I've read it somewhere

I'm on heat today.

This all falls into "too much information" or "incorrect information".

 

[corianderstem]

If Neil McCormick screams loudly during sex with a three-octave range, does this make him a sad, bitter little man?

 

[corianderstem]

edit: I started thinking about the octave thing. I don't think it's actually common for people to have a true 3 octaves. If I'm correct, even though I can sing three different F's, that's only 2 octaves (F below middle C to the F above, then that F to the next highest F - that's only two true octaves).

With that measurement, a three-octave range means that I could hit FOUR different Fs, which is kind of insane. I don't think that Bono really has a three-octave range, unless he sits around and sings a whole bunch of notes by himself that he never shows off in public. ... although now I want to go home and do some research at my keyboard. What's the lowest stuff he sings - maybe the beginning of Velvet Dress? And the highest is probably the falsetto on the Zoo TV Can't Help Falling In Love. Do you count falsetto range?

Dang, now I'm obsessed.

Edit again: not that this is any kind of final word on the matter, but I asked a good friend of mine who's been a professional singer for over 30 years. She had much to say on the topic about the "divas" and their so-called 4 or 5 octave ranges. She's with me in that my range would be 2 octaves. Sounds like there's no easy answer about falsetto being included in one's range.

Anyway. Shutting up now and moving on, because this is sooooo off topic, and is of interest to no one but me, because I was curious.

 

[doctorwho]

Bono is 100 times technically better than Steve Perry and Jim Kerr. I Perry never even sings, he's a stylist. Anyone can scream a loud pitched noize for a long time.

But Perry was also in tune - and this is key. Screaming loud for a long time won't work if one sounds horrible. Robert Plant worked wonders screaming on Led Zeppelin's early albums. Even Bono has screamed some great notes. But both wouldn't have worked if they were out of tune. Plus, Perry didn't really scream - he sang. His voice might not appeal to you and I get it - he is rather nasally. But denying that he had talent is too much.

I produce loud screams whilst i'm having sex, does this make me a better singer then you?

I think a deceased rodent is a better singer than I am. I may have had some tiny ability at one time, but that's gone.

Also, I'm not sure what your sexual conduct has to do with my vocal ability. Unless we had sex. And if so, gosh, I need some memory pills fast cuz I don't recall such an event.

Also Niel's post was in reply to Jim Kerr's in which he admitted Bono was a better singer then him.

If this is true, then it was nice of Kerr to say. Bono did a song with the Simple Minds in concert back in the 80's (I think) - and both men not only sounded fantastic, but played off each other well (the song was "New Gold Dream"). Both bands have great sound, music and vocalists - it's a shame Simple Minds isn't around like U2 is. Regardless, it's an opinion about who is "better".

He's equal on a par to Mercury. Mercury was a lighter tenor than Bono who has a heavier resonance akin to the helden tenor. He's probably better than George Michael, in respect to flexibility in styles of music and the fact Bono can sing semi operatic parts in his songs which George Michael doesn't.

To be fair, Michael never really tried any operatic notes, as far as I know. So I do not know if Michael can succeed with that type of vocal. But Michael's range, richness and styles (from belting it out to his softer, spoken voice) are clearly similar to Bono's (or vice versa).

Also, it's worth noting that some of Bono's "operatic" styles were a falsetto. Some called it his "Kermit voice". Bono often used this during the Love Town Tour, but it appeared on the JT and Zoo TV tours as well. It was Bono's way of hitting a note normally obtained with his open throat voice, but that he couldn't quite hit that day. In essence, it was a falsetto.

Wrong. Celine Dion has the same range as Bono and Susan Boyle has a 2 octave range. That is why she's been seeing a vocal coach to improve this.

I'm not experienced enough with music to argue if Dion has the same range as Bono. However, I think Dion's range is one of the best (as is Mariah Carey's). The fact that you may not like them does not detract from this fact.

As for Boyle seeing a coach - didn't Bono do the same?

It's not operatic it's musical theatre. Bono uses operatic stylings, or have you forgotten?

Trouble is, he makes ROCK music. One might argue thatnone of his operatic singing or operatic stylings belong in rock music. It's to Bono's credit that he makes them work so well.

Stop being silly! I've heard it all now. Oversinging means you're a better singer .

You got me on that one - I didn't mean to write that. I meant that their over-singing styles ARGUABLY may make them a better singer in the eyes of some. But I fully agree with you - their over-the-top styles are great for some, but don't always work for me. For example, I like Blige overall, but I thoroughly dislike her version of "One".

No. Whether you're a good singer or not is a fact, not an opinion.

O.K., now who's being ridiculous? I can declare Tiny Tim the best singer I've ever heard. Is this now a "fact"?

Good or great singers are GIVEN this title by a large group of people. They do not give that title to themselves (if they do, they are already setting themselves up for failure). Nor do they obtain this title by the thoughts of a token few.

I'm sorry but I'm going to have put you in the ninny parade. I've seen this silly posts of yours before and I've always thought they were incorrect.

Are you leading the parade? Because of all the posts you've made, this is by far the most "ninny-est".

This is the last I'll post on this. I fear this will become another "Bono's voice" thread. Suffice to say that we agree on one thing - we both love Bono's vocals.

 

[beachball]

Anyway. Shutting up now and moving on, because this is sooooo off topic, and is of interest to no one but me, because I was curious.

Does that mean Peterrrr is not here anymore

I remember talking to him a few years ago about this, and I did some analysis and found that the highest note full voice was in Bad C#5 and the highest falsetto was in Night and Day G5. The numbers after the notes are if you count the octaves on the piano.

The lowest note was in If You Wear That Velvet Dress C#2.

If that is correct, Bono has 3 octaves from C#2 to C#5 and an additional half octave (or more precisely 6 half notes) in falsetto.

I didn't listen to all the songs, just tried to remember which songs had very low or high notes and then hit the keys on my piano.

Haven't been here for a while and already off topic

 

[corianderstem]

Cool, thanks!

From what I gathered in poking around online and talking to my friend, it sounds like the most accurate measure of what one's true range is where the notes you can comfortably sing fall, not just ones you occasionally hit on a lucky day or the ones that Mariah used to be able to hit that only dogs can hear.

If I counted all the low notes I've hit when I've had a bad cold, or the ridiculously high notes I sometimes can hit after I've been singing for three hours, then I'd have a 3-octave range, too. And I know that's bullshit.

But anyway. Bono truly has a lovely range of notes on his best days.

 

[AnCatKatie]

I know this is only adding to the offtopic discussion (sorry ) but I was wondering if there's a thread about what notes Bono can/does sing, possibly what songs have his 'full voice' vs 'operatic falsetto' I think it was just called?

 

[Canadiens1131]

I know this is only adding to the offtopic discussion (sorry ) but I was wondering if there's a thread about what notes Bono can/does sing, possibly what songs have his 'full voice' vs 'operatic falsetto' I think it was just called?

PM Peterr.

Peterr is the go-to guy on Bono's voice. (Bono'sssssssss voiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiceeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!)

 

[Galeongirl]

I know this is only adding to the offtopic discussion (sorry ) but I was wondering if there's a thread about what notes Bono can/does sing, possibly what songs have his 'full voice' vs 'operatic falsetto' I think it was just called?

As Canadiens said, Peterrr knows his stuff abotu this. You should check some threads of his, he has bono's vocal threads that have videos with all the high notes and stuff in it.



And god. This thread is a goldmine for new sig quotes. So many. Which quote should I pick?

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Um, Cactus Annie, it's spelt Neil not Niel.

If Neil McCormick screams loudly during sex with a three-octave range, does this make him a sad, bitter little man?

But he doesn't get any because he's always bitter and jealous.

 

[MikeyJB]

Surely from something like A Sailors Whatever to his Shipmates -> Can't Help Falling in Love (Zoo TV falsetto) is a bigger range than 3 octaves?

 

[domo-kun]

*goes to find the Killing Bono movie thread*

 

[Cactus Annie]

But Perry was also in tune - and this is key.

Incorrect! It may be basically in tune but it's not precise. He may be able to adjust to sing in tune but I've rad on a record producers forum that he did go out of tune

Screaming loud for a long time won't work if one sounds horrible.

Screaming is screaming. It's not singing so it's nul and void

Robert Plant worked wonders screaming on Led Zeppelin's early albums. Even Bono has screamed some great notes. But both wouldn't have worked if they were out of tune. Plus, Perry didn't really scream - he sang. His voice might not appeal to you and I get it - he is rather nasally. But denying that he had talent is too much.

Yes but Bono doesn't scream more ofter than he sings. Anyone can produce a half distant tone. I sing out of tune in the shower. I know this because when I listen recordings of me singing on my mobile, it sounds terrible. Even though I thought I was singing in tune whilst I was doing it. Why is that?

Perry and Plant mostly shouted then sang. Therefore they're stylists. Sting is a stylist not a singer. Mercury used grit as he was a rock singer, but he was still a singer

If this is true, then it was nice of Kerr to say. Bono did a song with the Simple Minds in concert back in the 80's (I think) - and both men not only sounded fantastic, but played off each other well (the song was "New Gold Dream"). Both bands have great sound, music and vocalists - it's a shame Simple Minds isn't around like U2 is. Regardless, it's an opinion about who is "better".

Bono, David Bowie and Freddie Mercury is considered by vocal coaches to be one of the best singers off all time. I've read this in reputable sources. I haven't got much time at the moment but I will send you some links on Saturday, that's if I don't snuff it in the next few days.

Also, it's worth noting that some of Bono's "operatic" styles were a falsetto. Some called it his "Kermit voice". Bono often used this during the Love Town Tour, but it appeared on the JT and Zoo TV tours as well. It was Bono's way of hitting a note normally obtained with his open throat voice, but that he couldn't quite hit that day. In essence, it was a falsetto.

But I thought that someone once said Bono did use genuine opera performances on some early and later performances

Trouble is, he makes ROCK music. One might argue thatnone of his operatic singing or operatic stylings belong in rock music. It's to Bono's credit that he makes them work so well.

You could say the same thing about Freddie.

You got me on that one - I didn't mean to write that. I meant that their over-singing styles ARGUABLY may make them a better singer in the eyes of some. But I fully agree with you - their over-the-top styles are great for some, but don't always work for me. For example, I like Blige overall, but I thoroughly dislike her version of "One".

That's what Niel meant. Corred told me that.

O.K., now who's being ridiculous? I can declare Tiny Tim the best singer I've ever heard. Is this now a "fact"?

That's what I meant with opinions. You could say that about anyone even if it's clearly wrong.

My favourite singers technically: Sarah Vaughan and Peggy Lee.

Sarah sang operatic style but had great versitality to sing jazz. Many opera singers would sound awful singing jazz because it's more improvisational. So you could argue that they aren't the best when it comes to versitility. Peggy was probably one of the most versitalile singers ever. She performed a wide range of styles.

Not everyone likes opera. I find it quite stead and unadvanturous. Has anyone did anything in the last 100 years in terms of style? I personally hate the stupid faces they pull as they sing. So off-putying.

Are you leading the parade? Because of all the posts you've made, this is by far the most "ninny-est".

I'm not a ninny, I am a chancer and a mad women.

 

[BVS]

We're way off subject here, but Annie you're confusing some definitions here.

You really need to explain this whole "stylist vs singer" thing you keep going on about.

But here's a few things to help:

Tone - when speaking of a singer's "tone" one is talking about the character of the voice, is it nasally, is it rich, is it breathy, etc. Tone is subjective, there is no way to measure tone.

Pitch - when speaking of pitch we're talking about actually technically hitting the note. This can be measured objectively. One can sing into a device and find out exactly what note they are hitting. Autotune is what can correct people's pitch. If you are flat it can raise it up to the note, if you are sharp it can bring it down to the note.

There's a good place to start.

 

[BGD75]

Anywhoooooooooooo....... going back to the the actual topic...

I quite enjoyed the movie! Not as detailed as the book of course, but nevertheless an interesting little movie for every U2 fan.

 

[Rachel D.]

I wish I could unread things.

 

[dstalksalot]

Oh my goodness, I came in for the movie thread but I wish I could have been here earlier to comment on the singing tangents.

I am classically trained and let me just reiterate, the quality of a sound is more important than your range.

Also, the talk about Sop. and Ten. and their ranges...... it's true, they have almost the exact same range but they start an octive apart....same is true for Alt. and Bass. Thier ranges just start about a half an octive lower than the Sop. and Ten.

Also, I think people are intrchanging terms for register types. Males have a chest voice , head voice and a falsetto. (Head and chest voice in good vocalist are blended or bridged effectively. Falsetto notes have a different phonation from head voice notes even if they can be sometimes technically the same note on the scale. The note just resonates from a different part of the face .)

The voice type (sop, alto, tenor, bass) is determined by where the register breaks occur not how low or high a person can sing.

Ok, sorry.

 

[corianderstem]

Hey, thanks for defining some of that. I came barging in like a total know-it-all .... until I actually stopped to think about it and realized maybe I didn't know it all. Whoops.

I know enough to be dangerous with my information.

 

[Cactus Annie]

We're way off subject here, but Annie you're confusing some definitions here.

You really need to explain this whole "stylist vs singer" thing you keep going on about.

But here's a few things to help:

Tone - when speaking of a singer's "tone" one is talking about the character of the voice, is it nasally, is it rich, is it breathy, etc. Tone is subjective, there is no way to measure tone.
.

When I'm talking about tone I am referring to GCSE Music and Key Stage Music which is taught in schools. These music lessons are the first levels which you learn if you wish to be classically trained and progress into opera or musical theatre. A singer is someone who is considered to literally sing more ofter than scream, talk, screech, shout, growl, rumble, bellow, etc, etc. I find that Christina Agulira to possess quiet a nasally voice. Celine Dion has quite a nasally lower register. However they still considered singers because they mostly sing. It's got nothing to do with nasally tones or a rasp.

There is a fantastic music shop in Bristol that stocks instruments, scores and music books for individuals and schools, this where I read about the definition of a singer vs a stylist. This must also translate globally because on an American forum I visited the members claiming to be vocal coaches stated that they rate rock singers such as Freddie Mercury, Bono and Amy Lee, but they consider Sting to be a stylist rather than a singer. This was 5 years ago. Do you think after NLOTH Bono would be considered more of a stylist rather than a singer like Sting because of him screeching on tracks like MOS? Or do you think he could still be considered still within the boundaries of a rock singer like Freddie and Amy Lee?

And the ability to measure tone can and is measured. In another book I found in the Bristol book shop it mentioned that although Whitney Houstan had a beautiful rich tone, her voice lacked dynamics between the registers (ie: there is no difference in timbre in her lower and upper register). Again it mentioned Elvis Presely as a vocalist with dynamics between his registers as well as the ability to hit a note in a higher octave with great accuracy.

 

[BVS]

When I'm talking about tone I am referring to GCSE Music and Key Stage Music which is taught in schools. These music lessons are the first levels which you learn if you wish to be classically trained and progress into opera or musical theatre. A singer is someone who is considered to literally sing more ofter than scream, talk, screech, shout, growl, rumble, bellow, etc, etc. I find that Christina Agulira to possess quiet a nasally voice. Celine Dion has quite a nasally lower register. However they still considered singers because they mostly sing. It's got nothing to do with nasally tones or a rasp.

There is a fantastic music shop in Bristol that stocks instruments, scores and music books for individuals and schools, this where I read about the definition of a singer vs a stylist. This must also translate globally because on an American forum I visited the members claiming to be vocal coaches stated that they rate rock singers such as Freddie Mercury, Bono and Amy Lee, but they consider Sting to be a stylist rather than a singer. This was 5 years ago. Do you think after NLOTH Bono would be considered more of a stylist rather than a singer like Sting because of him screeching on tracks like MOS? Or do you think he could still be considered still within the boundaries of a rock singer like Freddie and Amy Lee?

And the ability to measure tone can and is measured. In another book I found in the Bristol book shop it mentioned that although Whitney Houstan had a beautiful rich tone, her voice lacked dynamics between the registers (ie: there is no difference in timbre in her lower and upper register). Again it mentioned Elvis Presely as a vocalist with dynamics between his registers as well as the ability to hit a note in a higher octave with great accuracy.

None of this post defined or negated anything I said.

You still haven't defined what makes a singer or stylists.

Also saying someone has a "beautiful rich" tone is not an objectable measurement.

I'm sorry but you're still very confused.

 

[Cactus Annie]

None of this post defined or negated anything I said.

You still haven't defined what makes a singer or stylists.

Oh yes I did! A stylist is someone who doesn't really sing properly whilst a singer does sing more than squeal, shout, bark, growl, etc, etc.

Also saying someone has a "beautiful rich" tone is not an objectable measurement.

No it isn't. Quality of tone is measured almost as if voices were an exact science in the Estill Voice Training Systems technique.

I'm sorry but you're still very confused.

I am not confused but I think you are. If I am confused it's because you confuse me

 

[Cactus Annie]

Hey, thanks for defining some of that. I came barging in like a total know-it-all .... until I actually stopped to think about it and realized maybe I didn't know it all. Whoops.

I know enough to be dangerous with my information.

. I do think falsetto is included as part of your vocal range although it's true that even opera singers only can regularly comfortably sing with a 2-3 octave range depending on their type of voice.

Coriad, there's nothing wrong with a 2 octave range. Those so called diva's who claim to have a 4-5 octave range are only saying that to hype up their PR.

I thought Bono's range was between the G beneath the middle C to the fourth G above that.

 

[BVS]

Oh yes I did! A stylist is someone who doesn't really sing properly whilst a singer does sing more than squeal, shout, bark, growl, etc, etc.

But a bark, growl, or scream is not an objectively definable term. What YOU call screaming may be proper singing technique. Tell me in proper terms why Sting is not considered a singer.

No it isn't. Quality of tone is measured almost as if voices were an exact science in the Estill Voice Training Systems technique.

Really? Ok then tell me how quality of tone is OBJECTIVELY measured?

 

[corianderstem]

I thought Bono's range was between the G beneath the middle C to the fourth G above that.

Oh, nooooo. No no no.

The G below middle C is more like the bottom end of a typical female vocal range. And 4 Gs above that (4 Gs above middle C, or 4 Gs above the G below middle C? Either way, it's way off) is, like, coloratura soprano territory.

 

[gareth brown]

downloaded this sunday night to watch while I did some uni work since I missed it in the cinema...I've got to say I found the whole U2 being massive thing really interesting for some reason and I came away thinking more about that than the non-story of the actual film. Bono (Mark Kermode's right when he says bono's shown to be this REALLY really fucking great guy and comes off really well from all this) is played brilliantly and it just made me think more about what it must really have been like for him at the time, i was pretty disappointed at how it just left me thinking about that rather than "gee, those Brothers eh? What a fun couple of guys to watch"

but yeah really over the top in places, and there are some very funny jokes but I found the whole movie to be pretty so-so to be honest. It's quite clear which bits are total bollocks on that note, am I completely wrong in thinking that A) Bono never asked for Ivan to be in the band and B) never asked them to support U2 at Croke Park, thus rendering basically the entire film a huge slice of artistic licence?? i haven't read the book, so someone'll have to fill me in as this thread's too long to look through

 

[Cactus Annie]

But a bark, growl, or scream is not an objectively definable term. What YOU call screaming may be proper singing technique. Tell me in proper terms why Sting is not considered a singer.

You're absolutely correct there! I remember a women on a forum who claimed she was a producer who worked mainly with opera singers and she considered Celine Dion to mostly shout rather than sing. I think this is incorrect, Celine does sing, but what she's doing is belting. To some people this completely legitimate singing technique can sound more like screaming.

However, (and this is my opinion being a music fan and voices as I listen to singers from pop to Eastern European folk), the problem with belting is that it's not the best technique to show off someone's voice to it's fullest. I find the resonance of the tone of a singers voice is often found during the quieter moments. I prefer Celine's voice when she often starts off a song because her voice much softer. Singers such as Eva Cassidy and Norah Jones had powerful voices but they didn't feel the need to constantly belt out out a song in order to portray emotion and passion. This is reason I don't like Bono's voice during the 80's and the beginning of the 90's. Singing isn't a competition to see how many decibels you have, for goodness sake!


Neither do I like this whining that a lot of pop singers do like Christina Agulira, Britney Spears and Cheryl Cole. Again this is an actual singing technique used in pop called baby twang, similar to what is termed on here as the kermit voice but with extra whinging!

Really? Ok then tell me how quality of tone is OBJECTIVELY measured?

To get a maximum of 6 points on the EVTS scale you must possess a full rich equal tone throughout your range that is darker in the chest voice and lighter in the head voice. The falsetto must be as strong as the rest of the voice. This also means a mature voice. The deeper voice you have the longer it takes to mature. Katheryn Jenkins, a mezzo, said that she expects her voice to fully mature when she reaches 30.

For 5 points you need a dark/light contrast to your voice but the falsetto may be weaker, the tone may not be as full and it may be nasally

4 points: Full voice but without a dark/light contrast in your voice (Whitney, Leona Lewis probably fit into this category).

3 points: Voice maybe thinner (ie: Celine Dion) at one end or maybe raspy.

2 points: Thin very breathy voice or very raspy (ie:Rod Stewart)

1 point: Non existent tone (ie: Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Liam Gallagher)

 

[Cactus Annie]

Oh, nooooo. No no no.

The G below middle C is more like the bottom end of a typical female vocal range. And 4 Gs above that (4 Gs above middle C, or 4 Gs above the G below middle C? Either way, it's way off) is, like, coloratura soprano territory.

So how comes when you pick up a music book on U2 songs with all the scores written in for guitar, piano and vocal Bono hits notes in these ranges all the time? According to these sources Bono hits notes below the middle C and the 2nd C above the middle C, which is above the treble clef stave in songs such as Beautiful Day, The Sweetest Thing, Electrical Storm, Walk On and others? I've also played the vocal parts on my keyboard along to some U2 songs.

Also, according to these scales, Bono tends to sing mostly in the octave in the C above middle C to the C above that. I forget who it was who said this but someone did say on this very forum that Bono did hit that high G in falsetto during a live version of WGRYWH a few years ago.

 

[AnCatKatie]

Anyone else think we should move this to a thread about pitch/voice/etc?

 

[BVS]

For 5 points you need a dark/light contrast to your voice but the falsetto may be weaker, the tone may not be as full and it may be nasally

4 points: Full voice but without a dark/light contrast in your voice (Whitney, Leona Lewis probably fit into this category).

3 points: Voice maybe thinner (ie: Celine Dion) at one end or maybe raspy.

2 points: Thin very breathy voice or very raspy (ie:Rod Stewart)

1 point: Non existent tone (ie: Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Liam Gallagher)

Annie, this is all subjective judging. Yes they may have a more layed out judging parameter, but it doesn't make it objective or scientific.