Is U2 too optimistic?
- Thread starter dward1
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
ozeeko
Refugee
Beautiful Day earns its optimism the right way. The lyrics totally go against the music. It's describing a disaster...and the only thing the character in the song really has to hold on to is a beautiful day. It's a pure song. It's the song that U2 needed to write at that particular time.
That said, the only thing that ever bugged me about it (other than the future optimstic songs it foreshadowed) is the part about "what you don't have you don't need it now" - I always felt this part of the song seemed like an afterthought and tacked on to give it an extra surge of optimsim, something that i feel personally the song didn't need. They could've left that part out.
That said, the only thing that ever bugged me about it (other than the future optimstic songs it foreshadowed) is the part about "what you don't have you don't need it now" - I always felt this part of the song seemed like an afterthought and tacked on to give it an extra surge of optimsim, something that i feel personally the song didn't need. They could've left that part out.
believer75
War Child
I think that last part of the song is about giving the middle finger to all the negative.....like that stuff doesn't matter to me now....I could care less if my world is falling a part...I'm ready to go blind and move on from that, leave it behind. it's similar to Breathe...I like that punk rock aspect of the song...you've got nothing that I need, basically....who gives a flip about negative...negative tries to be more powerful...but it's not.
believer75
War Child
yeah, and how long will their careers last acting like that? not thirty years, that's almost for sure.ozeeko
Refugee
To quote Roger Ebert, "a movie isn't judged on what it's about, it's judged on HOW IT HANDLES what it's about."
I use the same approach for songs. Be it dark, cynical, optimistic, whatever! It's quite foolish to say that it's super easy to write dark music. Take a look at Leonard Cohen's lyrics. Do you think that "Dress Rehearsal Rag" and "Famous Blue Raincoat" were easy to write?
Don't dismiss dark music in general just because you find it to be easy to write. The same could be said about happy music. All you need are major chords and happy go lucky lyrics set to a cheery melody.
believer75
War Child
To be fair, I think there are different types of darkness in terms of songwriting. Cohen and Pink Floyd for example are not a surface type of darkness.....they are not dark just for the sake of being dark. There is no art to the darkness for these "look at me, I'm so dark" artists. That's surface, and that's easy to do. Cohen and Pink Floyd were trying to find the light in a dark world. U2 does the same.
ozeeko
Refugee
Trying to find the light in a dark world isn't the only way to do it artistically. Roger Waters is a pretty bleak lyricist. Take a look at "Eclipse" or "Dogs" or "Welcome To The Machine" - not much light to be found there. Cohen's "Dress Rehearsal Rag" is one of the darkest, most unsettling set of lyrics ever put to music. No redemption to be found there.
It comes down to this: you're either a good writer or you aint. If you have lyrical talent, then you can nail almost any mood, whether it be dark or light.
believer75
War Child
yes, that is true. These artists, though, are very well aware of the contrasts between dark and light. the run of the mill, "dark, this is all we can write is dark music" artist, is not concerned with that. That's their image, and that's what they stick to. One trick ponies. Going back to the other post, I believe they were talking about the whining dark music where nothing is good and it is the incessant complaining about the world that is heard in their music. Pink Floyd and Cohen are aware of the contrasts and the quest for balance in their overall music and how that quest may drive us all insane in the end if we let it. I do not know either's music as well as U2, but from the songs I am familiar with, this is what I hear. I will check out "Dress Rehearsal Rag." Cohen is brilliant, and I have not heard enough of him. Thanks for the tip
ozeeko
Refugee
yes, that is true. These artists, though, are very well aware of the contrasts between dark and light. the run of the mill, "dark, this is all we can write is dark music" artist, is not concerned with that. That's their image, and that's what they stick to. One trick ponies. Going back to the other post, I believe they were talking about the whining dark music where nothing is good and it is the incessant complaining about the world that is heard in their music. Pink Floyd and Cohen are aware of the contrasts and the quest for balance in their overall music and how that quest may drive us all insane in the end if we let it. I do not know either's music as well as U2, but from the songs I am familiar with, this is what I hear. I will check out "Dress Rehearsal Rag." Cohen is brilliant, and I have not heard enough of him. Thanks for the tip
You'll like that Cohen tune. Another tip, don't listen to it if you're feeling suicidal. Cohen himself never sings it anymore. He's actually scared by what he wrote.
believer75
War Child
Thanks for the head's up with that, ozeeko. I listened to a clip of it just now on Itunes and will download it when I am feeling up to the task to take it on
I can already tell it is a very heavy tune.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
I disagree. I never said it was super easy to write dark music, just easier... I think it's just human nature to reflective more in moments of darker times and not wanting to stop in happier times.
I asked before, but I'm not sure you answered. Who do you think is someone that can write about optimism or joy well?
ozeeko
Refugee
I never said that you said that...i was referring to someone else who said that.
So...an example of optimsim and joy done well.
Beethoven's 9th Symphony comes to mind...
(and rocked the house on ZooTV!!!)
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Great example, but it kinda proves my point...
It's rare to find someone who can do it well, those writers are few and far between in popular genres of music. So I applaud Bono for pushing himself, no it doesn't always work, but no one can say he's on autopilot or not trying...
It's rare to find someone who can do it well, those writers are few and far between in popular genres of music. So I applaud Bono for pushing himself, no it doesn't always work, but no one can say he's on autopilot or not trying...
believer75
War Child
Great example!
Well put. I was posting on the quick. I suppose it can go either way - dark or happy music without depth is just about equally brainless. I don't think U2 have ever written a frivolous song. There's always some subtext there - maybe not done with the skill of a Leonard Cohen, but they're no slouches either.
I remember on the promo stuff leading up to AYCLB how Bono kept saying that the most difficult thing to capture on record was joy.
This has been an interesting thread.
Mr. V
Refugee
Just wanted to stick up for Beautiful Day. Had a listen while reading the lyrics and I remembered why it's one of U2's best songs ever. Fuck you, haters.
AtomicBono
ONE love, blood, life
Just wanted to stick up for Beautiful Day. Had a listen while reading the lyrics and I remembered why it's one of U2's best songs ever. Fuck you, haters.
I strongly disagree that the "what you don't have you don't need it now" part is an afterthought. I think it's one of the core themes of the album, like leaving behind everything except, well, all that you can't leave behind.
No way is U2 too optimistic. They have plenty of "dark" songs to counterbalance the light. But who does joy better than U2? How could that possibly be a bad thing?
zooropop40
Refugee
Magnificent is a perfect example of a balance of both a dark and light song.
It is joyful, yet deep. Very few bands can pull that off the way U2 can
It is joyful, yet deep. Very few bands can pull that off the way U2 can
By no means does U2 say "look at the world with a happy face, it will all be ok." The great thing is they say wow, look at the world there are lots of terrible things in it but the best way of dealing with it is not giving in to all the darkness. Looking to the joy and searching for something greater is the way to make it through.
A great example is When I Look at the World. The world has "all kind of chaos" but he can't wait any longer to see what the person sees who doesn't even blink or look away. There are times when we want to cry out and say "Wake Up Dead Man" but times like that are followed by "Beautiful Day"s.
A great example is When I Look at the World. The world has "all kind of chaos" but he can't wait any longer to see what the person sees who doesn't even blink or look away. There are times when we want to cry out and say "Wake Up Dead Man" but times like that are followed by "Beautiful Day"s.
AtomicBono
ONE love, blood, life
yep. shout into the darkness, squeeze out sparks of light.
ozeeko
Refugee
Not one of my favorite lines. Haha.
coolian2
Blue Crack Supplier
are u2 optimistic? $250 for a seat on the tour, that's pretty fucken optimistic.
AtomicBono
ONE love, blood, life
yeah, well, you're clearly not a fan of the optimism
I love the dark stuff as much as anyone. A lot of my favourite U2 songs are dark, like Exit and Acrobat. But the joyous stuff is just as good. Edge's solo in Crazy Tonight is one of my favourite moments on the album. i LIKE happy sounding stuff, when done well. and in my view, U2 does it best.
They're also great at mixing the two... like my favourite song ever, Gone. Dark song, but not bleak, and the chorus gives an uplifting feeling of freedom.
last unicorn
Blue Crack Addict
I LOVE this, for me it says a lot about the band. Their message is not: The world is good, be happy. Instead it's: There is darkness, but you can change that by making light.
intedomine
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
Nothing wrong with a bit of optimism, but I'd hardly say U2 is too optimistic. There is something very uplifting and comforting (Breathe, Love You Like Mad) about some of U2's songs this decade but it's never blatant, any optimism is reasoned by Bono, the optimism is usually in the wake of something darker. In the case of NLOTH, the songs are written from the perspective of outside characters, Unknown Caller, Moment Of Surrender, Fez (Being Born) are hardly positive-thinking or well-off characters. Winter is downright tragic.
cjboog
Refugee
ozeeko
Refugee
I LOVE this, for me it says a lot about the band. Their message is not: The world is good, be happy. Instead it's: There is darkness, but you can change that by making light.
I miss the old U2 that used to tell it like it is. And then you could draw your own conclusions from the songs. If you wanted to turn it into something positive, that was your decision. Now they're all about self-motivation and being in your face about it. Bono has become the rock and roll's equivilent of Tony Robbins. That's a new thing that started this decade.
ozeeko
Refugee
yeah, well, you're clearly not a fan of the optimism
I love the dark stuff as much as anyone. A lot of my favourite U2 songs are dark, like Exit and Acrobat. But the joyous stuff is just as good. Edge's solo in Crazy Tonight is one of my favourite moments on the album. i LIKE happy sounding stuff, when done well. and in my view, U2 does it best.
They're also great at mixing the two... like my favourite song ever, Gone. Dark song, but not bleak, and the chorus gives an uplifting feeling of freedom.
I'm not a hater of optimism. I love joyful music. In fact, i even love the song "Grace". It's beautiful, it's poetic, and most importantly, Bono isn't telling me to STAND UP AND FIGHT THE DARKNESS FOR MY FUCKING GRACE! GO CRAZY AND YOU WILL RECIEVE GRACE! YEAYEA ROCK AND ROLL!
Not for nothing, while Crazy Tonight isn't the worst example of these types of self motivational numbers, that guitar solo is just plain silly, it's like Edge doing a hoe-down. I can just picture him in the studio playing it with a straight face, while everyone else cracks up, thinking he's joking around. End of take. "That was funny, Edge. Now try something different." Edge: "What are you talking about? That was the solo"
As for "Gone", the optimism you gather from it is exactly what I've been saying for the past million years about optimism in U2's music. It's always the best when the MUSIC provides the optimism, not Bono. Bono's good at telling stories. He isn't good, in my opinion, at being the self-motivator, because when he does do self-motivation, he just sounds like some corny out of touch middle ager trying to be hip at a grade school assembly.
Scorpionac
War Child
What? I find everything about Gone pretty depressing.
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