I'd say REM was "that big" during the Out Of Time / Automatic for The People run, but they weren't able to sustain it and hold on through past that.
Still highly influential though, much more than their record sales would indicate.
Is This It?
- Thread starter Iggy Fizz
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Still highly influential though, much more than their record sales would indicate.
lazarus
Blue Crack Supplier
I've made an effort to keep those comparisons even. Even though the dates don't totally match up, using Steel Wheels and Voodoo Lounge as a comparison to ATYCLB an The Bomb tends to work well enough.
In terms of record sales and ticket sales, ATYCLB went 4x platinum, that's twice as many as Steel Wheels. It also received a plethora of Grammy nods and was arguably close to the win. Steel Wheels, nada.
The Bomb went 3x platinum (despite an increase of illegal sharing/downloading) to Voodoo Lounge's 2x. I believe the Stones won a single Rock Album Grammy for that one (their only award from NARAS, if I'm not mistaken), and we know how The Bomb ran the table.
As for the tours, I'm too lazy to look up the numbers. But what I do know is that the Stones were not featuring their new albums in the setlists as much as U2 did, and that's something that may have dropped even further with Bridges to Babylon and A Bigger Bang. I'd also argue those subsequent two Stones albums and tours left a considerably smaller media impression than No Line (whatever its commercial failure) and SOI.
To your other point, I'm also not sure that its U2's egos that caused the stillbirth of SOI, but more their failure to fully understand the process by which the album would be disseminated. Maybe you think they're full of shit and that they knew very well it would go to anyone's phone that was set to automatic iTunes download. But if we take them at their word, it was Apple's miscommunication snafu that caused the PR nightmare.
Had they simply offered it for free to anyone who MANUALLy downloaded it, would we be in the same place right now? Would the album and the band have been treated better?
R.E.M. was never on that level. And I don't think they ever wanted to be. They aren't that kind of band. Keep in mind they didn't even tour for those, their two biggest-selling albums. And you're aware that Achtung Baby was 8x platinum to Out of Time's 4x, right? I think you could also compare the Monster tour (their first since those albums) and find that it didn't sell nearly as many tix as ZooTV. I'd be surprised to find it did as much business as Popmart, to be honest. R.E.M. was huge, but they weren't in the stratosphere.
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The general point remains. I never argued that U2 weren't "more relevant" at the same time frames, only that the argument that the Stones weren't was bullshit. I readily acknowledge that Bomb/Vertigo was as huge a last act/revival as any ongoing band has ever had that late into their careers.
As far as tour numbers go... from a straight tickets sold standpoint...
Voodoo Lounge outdrew every U2 tour other than 360, and it was within a million of 360. It drew a million more than ZooTV, on 30 fewer shows. Played on average 6 songs off new album.
Steel Wheels outdrew The Joshua Tree tour.
Bigger Bang outdrew the Vertigo Tour, albeit in more shows overall and with a slightly smaller "per show" average. Started playing a lot off new album, eventually eliminated many of them by end of tour (not unlike 360) - all around 8 different new songs played on tour.
As for REM, yea... never as big as U2. But quite big during that late 80s early 90s stretch.
Hollow Island
New Yorker
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I mostly agree with you, but AC/DC can't really be a niche act if their audience is as big as U2's can they?
Imagining REM playing the Superbowl... 1992 would have been the time, but what would they have played? They crossed generations in the audience, but in the opposite direction of Super Bowl.
Hollow Island
New Yorker
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Automatic For The People sold 18 million copies.
Monster tour wasn't as big as Zoo TV because they didn't play stadiums. It probably wouldn't have been anyway because Monster was a divisive album.
I don't think I said they were as big as U2 anyway. All I'm really trying to say is that U2 don't tower over everyone, and that there have been others as big or almost as big. Like, in the first few years of the 90s, Nirvana were on the same level as U2, weren't they? Maybe even bigger? Same with GnR.
Nevermind sold 30 million copies, as did Appetite For Destruction. If REM at their peak weren't as big as U2 and the evidence is album sales, then it works here too. U2's consistency is incredible though. Sometimes someone comes along and hits more home runs, but they're always up there, and sometimes they get the title.
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OP
OP
Iggy Fizz
War Child
I'm open to the possibility I could be wrong. More than I think we can say about a lot of the posters here.
Can you point me to a few shows that I can listen to and hear for myself. Because I have listened to a lot of bootlegs over the years and never recall him going after Reagan personally.
I think when you're talking "bigness" you have to encompass everything - album sales, radio play, ticket sales, cultural influence and musical influence on other artists... as well as "time of service," so to speak.
U2 in the late 80s early 90s check all of the boxes. REM checked the album, radio and musical influence boxes.
Your Nirvana's and Pearl Jam's checked all the boxes during that time, perhaps even more so in the cultural influence section, but weren't able to sustain it... Nirvana obviously cause of Kurt's death, Pearl Jam pulled back voluntarily after Kurt died and, while still rather big, were never able to touch the level that they were at during the height of grunge. Also both bands, even in the early 90s, couldn't dream of doing a sold out stadium tour like ZooTV.
GNR were massive around Use Your Illusion, and could have gone into the rock stratosphere with continued success, but self combusted.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
I knew guys that played metal that were influenced by them, and cowboys that knew one song because it was always played during the "rock" section of the dances they went to.
So maybe it was just the areas of the US where I grew up, and maybe 'niche' isn't quite the word I'm looking for, but they were never as 'universal' as U2 or the Stones.
corianderstem
Blue Crack Distributor
I hear Bono in my head shouting "Ronald Ray-gun" during a Bullet rant on Bullet. Not sure if that was often, or just a show I happened to listen to a lot. Which means ... maybe that awesome Chicago bootleg that's out there? I dunno.
#SuperHelpful
Nick66
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
Yep.
A comparison in film might be Avatar....#1 box office movie of all time. But it's had a very small footprint in pop culture. Compare that to Star Wars, which had a huge presence in pop culture even when they weren't making new movies.
There may have been bands that sold more than U2 for a minute. But whatever "it" is that allows a rock band to transcend popularity as a by product of ticket and record sales is, and become a fixture in our culture, U2 is among an elite few number of bands that has it. They certainly don't have the presence that the Rolling Stones, or even I'd submit Led Zeppelin or The Who have in those terms. Certainly not the Beatles. But those bands had the benefit of coming first and breaking new ground. U2 may be "new money", but they're still very much a member of the club.
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redhill
Refugee
corianderstem
Blue Crack Distributor
NO I STILL HAVEN'T FOUND WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR
(har har see what i did there)
(har har see what i did there)
redhill
Refugee
corianderstem
Blue Crack Distributor
That's not the one I was thinking of, but listening to that makes me wonder if I've ever even heard that one! Nice pro-shot. Will have to bookmark that to watch later.
(I probably have it on DVD but have never watched it because I have way too many U2 DVD bootlegs.)
(I probably have it on DVD but have never watched it because I have way too many U2 DVD bootlegs.)
redhill
Refugee
Yea, me too. There's a big ole' box somewhere. Speaking of which, when will the complete Dortmund 84 ever surface?! There's got to be pro-shot footage of Wire somewhere...
womanfish
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
This may have been articulated before, or maybe not. But I think there are two different definitions going on here. You are saying other bands over the course of the last 30 years have been more popular than U2 at some small point in time. Yes, this is true.
But the original statement was that no other band has ever been in U2's unique position because they are the only band to have sustained a certain level of superstardom for about a 25 year stretch (arguably longer).
Sure Nirvana or GnR or Coldplay, etc.. may have sold more albums in a particular year. But that wasn't really the point.
The point is that U2, now the longest running signed band with no break ups or lineup changes, have had a run of steady popularity in both album sales, and ticket sales, that no other band can match.
Even with the "disastrous Popmart tour" - guess what? Highest grossing and highest attended tour of 1997. Over 7 million albums sold worldwide. That was them as failures!!
They've had 7 tours that have grossed over a 100 million dollars, including the biggest tour of all time.
Considered pioneers of live rock
11 albums that have sold over 5 million copies.
5 that have sold over 10 million.
3 albums considered classics - with Boy, UF and ATYCLB not far off the mark.
The most Grammy Awards of any band.
The most largely distributed album of all time (whether you like it or not)
A band that after 41 years, is still both artistically respected, and popular enough to draw substantial interest in new releases, and still the most formidable live band around.
Other bands have and will come and go. They will peak sharply, surpassing U2's popularity and fade away. Some may have/had prolonged "middle management" type success, with some real high points (Greenday, RHCP, DM, REM, even Pink Floyd, etc..) But none have the combined studio and live, sustained level of success that U2 has.
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JT, AB and ?
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
SBS and NYD are classics of course, but the rest of the album isn't anywhere near as regarded / front of mind as the lesser tracks on JT/AB. If there is a third 'classic album', I've seen ATYCLB mentioned as a possibility moreso than War (not that I'd agree ATYCLB deserves this status).
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BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
hasin73
Refugee
You just have written exactly all words that were in my mind and heart, but was having trouble to put into paper.
I think after your elaborate discussion, there's nothing left to debate.
womanfish
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
I was referring to War. I would say that most rock critics consider this to be a classic album from the band. It's not my favorite, but mostly because i have heard SBS and NYD to death, and actually would rather listen to October. But for your average rock fan, War was watershed moment for the band at that point.
You mentioned ATYCLB, and I agree. Also not my fave, but regarded very highly by public and critics. As is Boy. UF is also held in high regard, and has two of their biggest, most "classic" songs, Bad and Pride.
The point being, U2 isn't a band that had 1 huge album like AC/DC, or a couple really big albums over a few years like Nirvana, PJ, REM, Oaisis, Foos, Smashing Pumpkins, etc...
They have 6 albums either considered classic or great. Another one that won the Grammy for Album of the Year that isn't even part of that group. Those albums span over 3 decades, not a few years like many bands that have one or two big albums.
That's the point of my post, is that yes, many bands have huge success and top U2 for a bit. But no band has had the sustained presence that U2 has had.
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womanfish
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
And here's a list off the top of my head of almost 40 songs that are considered great and/charted on the billboard charts. Not sure many bands can claim this sort of catalog. Again, spanning over 4 decades.
For comparison, my second favorite group, that was HUGE, and long-standing is REM. They had about 20 songs over 2 decades that would fit this category.
I Will Follow
The Electric Co
Gloria
NYD
SBS
Two Hearts
Pride
Bad
WOWY
ISHFWILF
Streets
Bullet
In God’s Country
Desire
Angel of Harlem
WLCTT
AIWIY
HMTMKMKM
The Fly
One
Mysterious Ways
EBTTRT
UTEOTW
Lemon
Stay
Discoteque
Staring at the Sun
The Sweetest Thing
Electrical Storm
BD
Elevation
Stuck
Walk On
Vertigo
SYCMIOYO
Boots
EBW
For comparison, my second favorite group, that was HUGE, and long-standing is REM. They had about 20 songs over 2 decades that would fit this category.
I Will Follow
The Electric Co
Gloria
NYD
SBS
Two Hearts
Pride
Bad
WOWY
ISHFWILF
Streets
Bullet
In God’s Country
Desire
Angel of Harlem
WLCTT
AIWIY
HMTMKMKM
The Fly
One
Mysterious Ways
EBTTRT
UTEOTW
Lemon
Stay
Discoteque
Staring at the Sun
The Sweetest Thing
Electrical Storm
BD
Elevation
Stuck
Walk On
Vertigo
SYCMIOYO
Boots
EBW
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lazarus
Blue Crack Supplier
War has a much higher standing in the listening public than it does here, I think. It was their big breakthrough on college radio and really put the band on the map in the U.S.
Keep in mind it was #40 on Rolling Stone's Best 100 Albums of the 1980s (published in the early 90s), whereas Boy and TUF didn't appear at all (JT was #3). And it placed in the high 200s on their subsequent Best 500 Albums of All-Time list.
Keep in mind it was #40 on Rolling Stone's Best 100 Albums of the 1980s (published in the early 90s), whereas Boy and TUF didn't appear at all (JT was #3). And it placed in the high 200s on their subsequent Best 500 Albums of All-Time list.
david
ONE love, blood, life
Yeah 83 was a good year for them. They played the US Fest and MTV played the Under a Blood Red Sky version of SBS a lot.
2 of the best posts I've ever read!
Here or anywhere
I never even thought it was a matter of debate in the general public what the 3 classics were. War is easily the 3rd. For the reasons you stated.
People here tend to say "SBS and NYD, what else you got?"
Which kind of misses the point and understates the enormous impact these 2 songs had in breaking U2 worldwide. On the radio and as a live act. When I think of early U2, my first image is of Bono waiving the white flag in the fog at Red Rocks. Both of these songs just perfectly embody the musical, spiritual and political identity of U2. Without a doubt, they're the first songs in the catalog to do that and are arguably the most effective.
At any rate, what people forget is that Two Hearts was a hit in its own right. And a highly regarded song among those in the casual crowd who were around and listening to music in 1983.
Seconds and Surrender are known and highly regarded in a good part of the rock fan general public- though not to the extent of the others.
Then you have 40- which can't be overlooked because it closed 99% of the 1980s shows and has developed its own mythological status that has spread beyond just the hard core fan base. Just one example of this is its appearance as a snippet on the Elevation Boston DVD. That's a well known performance of Streets.
Like A Song, Red Light, Refugee and Drowning Man are obviously not too well known but I don't think any, including Red light, are regarded by critics or anyone else (not on this board!) who knows them as clunkers.
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I gave you an example in the post you quoted! But sure, for Seconds, 21 March 1985, Chicago.
And no prizes for guessing which Maggie Bono would deride when playing Maggie's Farm.
womanfish
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
2 of the best posts I've ever read!
Here or anywhere
I never even thought it was a matter of debate in the general public what the 3 classics were. War is easily the 3rd. For the reasons you stated.
People here tend to say "SBS and NYD, what else you got?"
Which kind of misses the point and understates the enormous impact these 2 songs had in breaking U2 worldwide. On the radio and as a live act. When I think of early U2, my first image is of Bono waiving the white flag in the fog at Red Rocks. Both of these songs just perfectly embody the musical, spiritual and political identity of U2. Without a doubt, they're the first songs in the catalog to do that and are arguably the most effective.
At any rate, what people forget is that Two Hearts was a hit in its own right. And a highly regarded song among those in the casual crowd who were around and listening to music in 1983.
Seconds and Surrender are known and highly regarded in a good part of the rock fan general public- though not to the extent of the others.
Then you have 40- which can't be overlooked because it closed 99% of the 1980s shows and has developed its own mythological status that has spread beyond just the hard core fan base. Just one example of this is its appearance as a snippet on the Elevation Boston DVD. That's a well known performance of Streets.
Like A Song, Red Light, Refugee and Drowning Man are obviously not too well known but I don't think any, including Red light, are regarded by critics or anyone else (not on this board!) who knows them as clunkers.
Why thank you!! That is very kind of you to say. I just think that U2 is often overlooked by the public in general, and even by their own fans, as to what they have really been to the history of rock music.
They came after the 60/70's where the competition and variety of music was much less. Where bands like the Stones, Who, Beatles, Zep, etc... were cemented as rock royalty.
And because they never fit a mold, never stayed still in their style, they could never be pinned down as a "classic" rock band, or an "alternative" rock band, or a "pop" rock band, or whatever. But nevertheless, they climbed to the top of the rock n roll heap and have stayed there for decades. And i'm so glad they have.
But I digress. Thanks for the compliment. cheers!
p.s. - yes, i enjoy listening to the "rest" of War much more than the big hits. Same for UF. much more enjoyable and interesting to me now.
OP
OP
Iggy Fizz
War Child
Fair that. I'll take a listen this weekend.
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