Vlad n U 2
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They stick the boot into Eastern Europeans?! Why I outta kick their asses.
Daily Mail Butcher Bono...Again (Its Brutal)
- Thread starter MadForIt
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They stick the boot into Eastern Europeans?! Why I outta kick their asses.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
How does "global business" = "fairly conservative group"?
I really have no clue what you are talking about as far as having numbers. The percentage commitments of countries towards Africa have been published and the Dutch have one of the highest commitments. This has been discussed extensively in other threads, it's too bad the media hasn't done their job.
I was laughing at the term "tax EXILES" it's a completely false use of the term, therefore I considered it a joke.
If you consider "fairly conservative" to mean "they make music that isn't Guns-N-Roses-type music and they don't act like Axl Rose", then yes, they're borderline fascist.
However, if not, then all of U2 are pretty liberal, although I'd hesitate to just slap that label on them and walk away.
However, if not, then all of U2 are pretty liberal, although I'd hesitate to just slap that label on them and walk away.
gvox
Ghost of Love
Regardless of whether or not the Dutch commit more to foreign aid than the Irish do, it's still a bit of an optics problem for U2, by simple virtue of example.
It's a bit of a contradiction to say 'we don't want your money, just pressure your politicians about where your tax dollar is spent' and then take your own tax dollar elsewhere. The people you are preaching to can't take their tax dollars elsewhere on this..principle, of sorts.
Far better would it have been for them to leave their base in Dublin - like Bono repeated in his speech at Slane Castle during OOC - and exert greater pressure on their own government. Yes, they have a right to operate as shrewdly as possible in their business dealings, but do they need to? And at what expense? If it detracts from the credibility of their lead singer's campaigning, they'd be better served to just take the extra tax hit (which, according to the theory that this only represents a small portion of their business, would only be a small hit). Or come right out and state what it is they are doing. I firmly believe that they subscribe to the 'let your giving be done in private' motto, and that's great, but if you do other things that mar your image, well you need to do a bit of damage control if you're going to be a hugely visible public champion of the poor. For someone who stays out of the public eye, this is not so great an issue. For someone like Bono, it becomes critical almost.
About that, I haven't heard U2 make mention of the alleged fact that the Dutch will do more for aid than the Irish do. Is this just a theory that U2 fans have slipped in to make themselves feel a bit better about the issue? Just playing devil's advocate for a sec.
It's a bit of a contradiction to say 'we don't want your money, just pressure your politicians about where your tax dollar is spent' and then take your own tax dollar elsewhere. The people you are preaching to can't take their tax dollars elsewhere on this..principle, of sorts.
Far better would it have been for them to leave their base in Dublin - like Bono repeated in his speech at Slane Castle during OOC - and exert greater pressure on their own government. Yes, they have a right to operate as shrewdly as possible in their business dealings, but do they need to? And at what expense? If it detracts from the credibility of their lead singer's campaigning, they'd be better served to just take the extra tax hit (which, according to the theory that this only represents a small portion of their business, would only be a small hit). Or come right out and state what it is they are doing. I firmly believe that they subscribe to the 'let your giving be done in private' motto, and that's great, but if you do other things that mar your image, well you need to do a bit of damage control if you're going to be a hugely visible public champion of the poor. For someone who stays out of the public eye, this is not so great an issue. For someone like Bono, it becomes critical almost.
About that, I haven't heard U2 make mention of the alleged fact that the Dutch will do more for aid than the Irish do. Is this just a theory that U2 fans have slipped in to make themselves feel a bit better about the issue? Just playing devil's advocate for a sec.
Morgoth321
Acrobat
There's only one matter for me that these 'Bono is a hypocrite' articles never seem to consider - the possibility that Bono may well donate huge amounts of his personal wealth to charities on an anonymous / quiet basis. Nobody ever seems to allow for this as an option. Yes, he lives a distinctly extravagant and non-carbon neutral lifestyle, but I also believe / hope that he does donate plenty. In any case, he's done more for good causes and raised (directly or indirectly) far more money than most of us ever will - certainly more than irritating journalists anyway!
I actually agree with you. Obviously the U2 members, to a man, are fairly progressive and politically liberal people. However, the point the writer is making is that it's fairly typical -- almost a fad -- for educated or upper-middle class people of U2's generation to be that way in principal and theory, but then to act in a rather conservative way. And I do think this includes U2.
They did meet Axl Rose in 1992, and Edge said he liked him.
Getting back to the tax thing, here's a quote from Paul McGuinness:
"...we pay taxes all over the world. And like any other business, we're perfectly entitled to minimise the tax we pay... "
Notice he doesn't say 'we're entitled to pay taxes in a nation that gives money to Africa'. Moving some of their operations to Holland has actually allowed them to pay almost no taxes there.
Now, am I saying that this makes Bono a hypocrite? No, I'm not. But it's quite a thing to preach about taxes to people when you yourself avoid paying them. As GVox says, U2/Bono are just shooting themselves in the foot and not helping their own campaign by doing things like this.
last unicorn
Blue Crack Addict
No, it's not made up, it's well documented and should be easy to research. Plus, Bono mentioned it several times.
I don't agree with the tax decision, but I understand it. U2 are paying more taxes now in the Netherlands than they payed before in Ireland. Plus, people seem to forget that they still LIVE in Ireland, have business there, investments, etc. They pay enough taxes there. And not only in Ireland, also in many other countries.
And I agree with whoever said that Bono is donating money. Just because he's not running around all the time talking about it, it doesn't mean he doesn't donate. There have been several occassions in the past where U2 have talked openly about donating money to certain causes. There is also the fact that 100% of the money from Red Zones go to the Global Fund. I think private donations should remain private, I don't need Bono or anyone to run around, making statments on that issue.
gvox
Ghost of Love
I'm not saying that the fact itself is made up - it's either true that the Dutch give more or it isn't. What I am questioning is whether or not this fact is in any way a part of the reason why U2 made this decision. That is the part I'm wondering if people are just theorizing about.
And the statement "they pay enough taxes". Really? What qualifies as "enough taxes"?
Also, this is U2's money. Their royalties are getting taxed massively after having 0% tax for years.
The only difference is the rich have more opportunities to pay as little tax as possible.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Bono has never preached against tax deductions, in fact the majority of charity is a deduction, if Bono preached against this, then the two of you would have a point. Maybe not everyone has the ability to move their money elsewhere but everyone has the means to reduce their taxes and utilize deductions.
"Almost no" taxes? Where did you get this information?
And I never claimed the fact that the Netherlands gives more was ever stated as a reason, but it's just a bonus fact for those that haven't done their homework.
But here's where you are wrong, he's not AVOIDING them, you keep saying this, maybe you hope that if you keep repeating it it will come true
indra
ONE love, blood, life
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Seriously, any essay or article can be improved by including the phrase "soddin mountain goats".
redhotswami
Blue Crack Addict
They are still based in Dublin, they only moved a portion of their business to the Netherlands.
"Almost no" taxes? Where did you get this information?
But here's where you are wrong, he's not AVOIDING them, you keep saying this, maybe you hope that if you keep repeating it it will come true
Here are my sources -- whether or not they're accurate I can't prove, but here they are:
The Independent.ie (Sept. 2006): "Earlier this summer, the group began moving some of their business affairs to a Dutch finance house in order to avail of a virtually tax-free status on their handsome royalties. They are believed to have saved around €15m by transferring the music publishing side of their business empire to Amsterdam..."
Finfacts.com (re: Irish business news) (Feb. 2007): "SOMO, a Dutch research centre, said in a report in November 2006, that many foreign companies establish themselves in the Netherlands to take advantage of its very attractive tax system. Every year about €3,600 billion (over eight times the Dutch GNP) of foreign companies’ money flows through the Netherlands. The research centre says that this can have negative consequences for other countries, both rich and poor, that lose out on tax income.... ...The New York Times says that U2’s riches are well-traveled and, like the Rolling Stones, the band has become sophisticated about finding overseas shelters for its money."
Sunday independent (Aug.2006) [and this is an article that is entirely sympathetic to the band's position]: "It is not surprising that Bono is reluctant to see his taxes swallowed by such a system. Still, if U2's reasons for taking its money and running were principled then the band, presumably, would have said so. Its silence suggests no such rationale. There is no evidence that members of U2 are about to emulate a number of multimillionaires in the United States by spending vast amounts of their wealth directly on the world's poor as an alternative to handing it over to the Irish government."
I think the part in bold/italics above is key to what we're saying here. Yes, they no doubt are charitable people in numerous ways that the press and fans don't know about, and that's as it should be. But let's not delude ourselves into thinking that the tax evasion is informed by some sort of noble vision of donating tax money to African nations.
There, now I did my homework, as per your 1000 requests. So, BVS, could you show us your sources for how and why U2 are moving publishing income to Holland in order to give to Africans?
As for my "conservative" comment, here's yet another quote from Paul McGuinness that sort of makes me cringe: "Like any other business, U2 operates in a tax-efficient manner." It's not an unreasonable position, but does he have to refer to them publicly as "a business"? Yuck!
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
I never stated it was reason why, you do this to everyone, you should spend more time reading people's posts rather than twisting them.
Oh noes "business" = "conservative"!!!
Every aspect in life has a business side(especially to the person who is in charge of that aspect) to it... the sooner you face it the better.
redhotswami
Blue Crack Addict
I never stated it was reason why, you do this to everyone, you should spend more time reading people's posts rather than twisting them.
Oh noes "business" = "conservative"!!!
Every aspect in life has a business side(especially to the person who is in charge of that aspect) to it... the sooner you face it the better.
Why are you on interference instead of the GA queue today?
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
roy
Refugee
"Irish mountebank"
"Whiny little Dubliner"
"little Irishman"
"Small, strange-looking Irishman"
I think you can see what he's coming from...
Letts has a history of sectarian abuse.
"Whiny little Dubliner"
"little Irishman"
"Small, strange-looking Irishman"
I think you can see what he's coming from...
Letts has a history of sectarian abuse.
last unicorn
Blue Crack Addict
Business = making money = conservative 
Thank God I love to work for free and I'm happy if I can pay more taxes than I actually have to.
Thank God I love to work for free and I'm happy if I can pay more taxes than I actually have to.
Rubbish. You plainly stated (more than once) that the band specifically chose Holland because Holland gives more of its tax money to help African nations. There is a mountain of evidence, a tiny bit of which I've supplied, to refute this.
In other words, you have absolutely no evidence/facts to support the points you made, on which basis you judged my points to be "a joke".
Nice work.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
What the hell does that have to do with what you quoted? I give up, you've gone back to just flat out trolling again.
See ya.
Can we ever have one thread here that doesn't resort to bickering? Walk away if you're getting frustrated people.
cobl04
45:33
I'm coming to love these posts Carlos!
I don't read anything from a source which has, on its website, a massive picture with the headline - "Posh's Supersize Shoulders and 6in Heels... At School Fair"
Don't lose sleep, the Mail's a Tory paper, albeit most of the replies to the article, and some bordering on the frankly depressing and horrifying in content, come from even further right that the British Conservative Party.... faaaaaaaaar right infact... one even suggesting that African women should not be allowed to have babies... and the usual mantra of charity begins at home..
Personally, I've held my nose with Bono and his philathropy and the people he has sat down with like Helms and his ilk. re; His associates.. sorry but the comments aimed at Bush for example [he's a funny guy], Blair etal over the years, let's call it "the charm thing", don't care, don't need to know, get the job done, cut out the public charm [who really cares about Rice's shoe collection], Blair & Brown are not some political Lennon & McCartney, it makes him sound out of touch... and I think alot of that irritates the sht out of the neutrals and those looking for a fight or wanting to write this stuff, it gives them fuel for the fire...
Oh yeah...I will never defend a hack article written by Quenton Letts, Peter Hitchens or James Dalrimple, odious little Englander shites...
Personally, I've held my nose with Bono and his philathropy and the people he has sat down with like Helms and his ilk. re; His associates.. sorry but the comments aimed at Bush for example [he's a funny guy], Blair etal over the years, let's call it "the charm thing", don't care, don't need to know, get the job done, cut out the public charm [who really cares about Rice's shoe collection], Blair & Brown are not some political Lennon & McCartney, it makes him sound out of touch... and I think alot of that irritates the sht out of the neutrals and those looking for a fight or wanting to write this stuff, it gives them fuel for the fire...
Oh yeah...I will never defend a hack article written by Quenton Letts, Peter Hitchens or James Dalrimple, odious little Englander shites...
Trinity3000
Acrobat
last unicorn
Blue Crack Addict
I wasn't aware that Bono's house in Dublin is an "Italian Palazzo". 
So much crap in one article.
So much crap in one article.
Marien
Refugee
Ha ha ha, Bono's house in Dublin is a Victorian house and quite modest for a superstar his size I would say, the only palace in the town is Enya's castle (which has nothing to do with an Italian Palace either).
I haven't read the article and I'm not going to, because coming from whom it comes I know I can only get disappointment from it.
I haven't read the article and I'm not going to, because coming from whom it comes I know I can only get disappointment from it.
mikal
Blue Crack Addict
has anyone asked if Bono's ok yet?
oktobergirl
Refugee
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