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Old 01-14-2010, 10:32 AM   #201
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Yes, but can you think of any other industry where the product or services became "worthless" overnight, yet the public still wanted the industry to keep producing said product or service? I can't think of one.
i can think of phone calls... we can all have free or practically free phone calls now if we want to, thru various phone deals and packages, skype etc, but also rely on the telecommunications infrastructure to do so...

my phone bills used to be sky-high, but now i pay next to nothing (for my normal landline, though could have free calls with skype if i wanted to)... that's one example i can think of...

also, before the internet was widely available, i needed to transfer files internationally, and it would take ages and ages to send a file modem-to-modem and so the phonecall itself would cost a fortune! i still need to transfer my files, but now pay a fraction of the price for a far better service... British Telecom and France Telecom have to live with that and still provide the infrastructure i need...

i dunno, i'm just thinking off the top of my head really, but those are a few examples that come to mind...
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Old 01-14-2010, 11:46 AM   #202
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i can think of phone calls... we can all have free or practically free phone calls now if we want to, thru various phone deals and packages, skype etc, but also rely on the telecommunications infrastructure to do so...

my phone bills used to be sky-high, but now i pay next to nothing (for my normal landline, though could have free calls with skype if i wanted to)... that's one example i can think of...

also, before the internet was widely available, i needed to transfer files internationally, and it would take ages and ages to send a file modem-to-modem and so the phonecall itself would cost a fortune! i still need to transfer my files, but now pay a fraction of the price for a far better service... British Telecom and France Telecom have to live with that and still provide the infrastructure i need...

i dunno, i'm just thinking off the top of my head really, but those are a few examples that come to mind...
But this is example of telecommunications just replacing themselves, not the same. AT&T may lose landline business but make up for it in internet/cable/cellular. So they aren't giving up anything.
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Old 01-14-2010, 11:51 AM   #203
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My point about the programs was that they help with those initial costs, this seems to be the hardest part for starting bands especially touring.
What I was trying to say though is that other than the privately raised and administered fund for helping with video costs, I've never once heard of a rock band say "oh, we got a government grant to help fund our tour/recording costs." Never. And if it were actually happening, I'm sure I would have heard something over the years. They do this on their own, and manage somehow.
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Old 01-14-2010, 12:04 PM   #204
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What I was trying to say though is that other than the privately raised and administered fund for helping with video costs, I've never once heard of a rock band say "oh, we got a government grant to help fund our tour/recording costs." Never. And if it were actually happening, I'm sure I would have heard something over the years. They do this on their own, and manage somehow.
Why would Oscar lie?
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Old 01-14-2010, 12:41 PM   #205
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But this is example of telecommunications just replacing themselves, not the same. AT&T may lose landline business but make up for it in internet/cable/cellular. So they aren't giving up anything.
but overall i'm still paying less (or nothing) for more...

maybe the music industry needs to find some other way of making up for their losses then as well...?
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Old 01-14-2010, 12:52 PM   #206
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but overall i'm still paying less (or nothing) for more...

maybe the music industry needs to find some other way of making up for their losses then as well...?
You personally might be paying less, but they are making more.

Well they tried by incorporating video into the CD format but it wasn't too long before that easily became downloadable as well. The only viable alternative that I see in the near future is one that most here won't like but it's the way I see music going... and that's more of the music you love will be tied in with advertising. We've already seen it, bands with "indie cred" selling songs to candy and car commercials. It's gonna get worse.
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Old 01-14-2010, 01:22 PM   #207
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Why would Oscar lie?
Ha! Because liberal arty types are a drain on society?

I looked on google and found this http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/ar...gewanted=print so I guess it does happen more than I thought it did. I stand corrected. It does sound like it's quite normal in many countries, though. And many of the amounts that they're talking about aren't huge - and I've heard of bands borrowing more from friends and family to get started.
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Old 01-14-2010, 01:28 PM   #208
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You personally might be paying less, but they are making more.

Well they tried by incorporating video into the CD format but it wasn't too long before that easily became downloadable as well. The only viable alternative that I see in the near future is one that most here won't like but it's the way I see music going... and that's more of the music you love will be tied in with advertising. We've already seen it, bands with "indie cred" selling songs to candy and car commercials. It's gonna get worse.

peter gabriel for one was talking about all this years ago... i think he's involved with we7 isn't he? full of ads... ha

i don't mind bands selling songs for advertising to be honest... there's far worse ways to make a living when you look at the bigger picture...
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Old 01-14-2010, 01:39 PM   #209
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What I was trying to say though is that other than the privately raised and administered fund for helping with video costs, I've never once heard of a rock band say "oh, we got a government grant to help fund our tour/recording costs." Never. And if it were actually happening, I'm sure I would have heard something over the years. They do this on their own, and manage somehow.
that is a shame... i mean, dance and theatre companies are able to apply for funding from government and arts councils etc so why not bands? (ha ok so they do! just saw your other post - cool!)... a couple friends of mine are constantly applying for funding and they swear you just need to be really really good at filling in forms and selling your project from a "business" angle... they also have sideline activities to fund their projects though, as in workshops in the community and schools...

how does it work for "composers" in the classical field? are they mainly commissioned i wonder?? there's funding for classical music surely?

also how about a "book-deal" approach for new musicians? how do book publishers do it?
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Old 01-14-2010, 01:40 PM   #210
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Hasn't it become much more acceptable for indie artists to sell songs to advertising, now? Since Moby did it with Porcelain? I think what sticks in people's craws is when an established band sells a much loved classic track and ruins it for people. U2 would be slaughtered if they ever did this, for example, and I'm glad they haven't. They don't need to. But I think most people recognize the difference between the two situations.
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Old 01-14-2010, 01:49 PM   #211
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Yeah, you don't know much about labels do you? Loans come with interest and monthly payments, labels come with advances, PR, access to equipment, etc...


So why did they sign? Yes the Artic Monkeys are the exceptions, there are exceptions to every rule, but think about that for awhile, look at whatever industry you work for, do you want the exception to become the rule? Most of the time, not... They had big support by the BBC, would a band in the states have the same forum? I can't think of one.
I'm well aware of what record companies offer, and it isn't generally the rosy picture you paint. Advances need to be paid back and to do so normally takes almost all of the income derived from selling music until the debt is paid. Paying back a loan at least gives you the option of paying it back while earning, a record company advance immediately cedes control of all money earned through selling music to the record company, who'll give you some once your debt is paid. Really, what's better especially now that record companies are getting very interested in the live performance rights of bands (so they'll be able to sequester that income as well)?

The Arctic Monkeys signed because they managed to get a fantastic deal, a deal that almost no other unsigned band could get, one that allowed them to keep their publishing rights. There's not that many other bands out there following the same route, because the lure of 'easy' money is too great, most bands get to a certain size, the record companies get wind offer them easy 'money' which they take to grow quickly. I reckon a few could take their time and grow without record company 'backing' but at the end of the day it's currently easier to take an advance for most, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to do without record company support. Hell a lot of independent record companies like Sub Pop were basically distributors and although provided contact networks and aided physical production and distribution didn't go down the advance route and bands self funded records.

The Arctic Monkeys organically grew via internet publicity and good old live performance to a size where they could dictate terms to prospective record companies, proving that there is another way. The BBC outside of their local BBC radio station had little to do with it, and really only became involved with them when they were already huge in Northern England. There are a number of unsigned bands in the Glasgow area who regularly sell out 800-1200 venues who are pretty much following the same route, although I imagine. The Fratelli's were playing mid size venues around Scotland before getting signed, Travis (another Scottish band) self funded an EP and a single years before getting signed and again played in some pretty big venues before getting a deal.

At the point the Monkey's signed, they could have remained independent (and Turner has said they were thinking about doing so), but ultimately the record company route was less risky as they were sure they could sell enough from their existing fanbase not to run into debt.
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Old 01-14-2010, 01:52 PM   #212
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that is a shame... i mean, dance and theatre companies are able to apply for funding from government and arts councils etc so why not bands? (ha ok so they do! just saw your other post - cool!)... a couple friends of mine are constantly applying for funding and they swear you just need to be really really good at filling in forms and selling your project from a "business" angle... they also have sideline activities to fund their projects though, as in workshops in the community and schools...

how does it work for "composers" in the classical field? are they mainly commissioned i wonder?? there's funding for classical music surely?

also how about a "book-deal" approach for new musicians? how do book publishers do it?
Yeah, despite what that article said, i still don't think it's *that* common, or that the amounts are great enough for most bands to pay anything but a minimal portion of a recording or a tour. And like you said, forms and business plans mean everything, and many musicians don't have a clue about things like that.

Interestingly, that was the only article I found on the subject of rock bands, and it was published in the US, in the NY times. The only article I found published in Canada was one about grants to jazz festivals, where many musicians and the public in general thought the funds were misspent - on paying big name American acts to perform at free festival concerts, and to attract tourism to the events. Sounds like very little or none of the money went to support the Canadian musicians. Meanwhile, regular jazz venues and musicians were left to their own devices to struggle. That's government arts funding for you.
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Old 01-14-2010, 02:43 PM   #213
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I'm well aware of what record companies offer, and it isn't generally the rosy picture you paint. Advances need to be paid back and to do so normally takes almost all of the income derived from selling music until the debt is paid. Paying back a loan at least gives you the option of paying it back while earning, a record company advance immediately cedes control of all money earned through selling music to the record company, who'll give you some once your debt is paid. Really, what's better especially now that record companies are getting very interested in the live performance rights of bands (so they'll be able to sequester that income as well)?
I'm not painting a rosy picture, just a necessary one for most bands. Advances don't come with interest, payments or come out of pocket, but it does come with PR and support, banks don't do that. It's not paid back, it's money "earned" that's why it's called an advance. Trust me unless you are guanranteed an income where you can live AND pay off the loan before time's up a loan is a not the way to go.

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The Arctic Monkeys signed because they managed to get a fantastic deal, a deal that almost no other unsigned band could get, one that allowed them to keep their publishing rights. There's not that many other bands out there following the same route, because the lure of 'easy' money is too great, most bands get to a certain size, the record companies get wind offer them easy 'money' which they take to grow quickly. I reckon a few could take their time and grow without record company 'backing' but at the end of the day it's currently easier to take an advance for most, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to do without record company support. Hell a lot of independent record companies like Sub Pop were basically distributors and although provided contact networks and aided physical production and distribution didn't go down the advance route and bands self funded records.
You just proved my point, even the exception found a better route with a label.
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The Arctic Monkeys organically grew via internet publicity and good old live performance to a size where they could dictate terms to prospective record companies, proving that there is another way. The BBC outside of their local BBC radio station had little to do with it, and really only became involved with them when they were already huge in Northern England. There are a number of unsigned bands in the Glasgow area who regularly sell out 800-1200 venues who are pretty much following the same route, although I imagine. The Fratelli's were playing mid size venues around Scotland before getting signed, Travis (another Scottish band) self funded an EP and a single years before getting signed and again played in some pretty big venues before getting a deal.
This is quite revisionist...

You haven't helped your argument.
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Old 01-14-2010, 03:19 PM   #214
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Does anyone actually think a musician could walk into a bank and ask for a loan to help them release a record or finance a small tour? Really??

No bank that I work with would even consider that remotely.
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Old 01-14-2010, 04:42 PM   #215
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I'm not painting a rosy picture, just a necessary one for most bands. Advances don't come with interest, payments or come out of pocket, but it does come with PR and support, banks don't do that. It's not paid back, it's money "earned" that's why it's called an advance. Trust me unless you are guanranteed an income where you can live AND pay off the loan before time's up a loan is a not the way to go.


You just proved my point, even the exception found a better route with a label.

This is quite revisionist...

You haven't helped your argument.

An advance typically needs to be recouped before the artist sees a penny. At least with a loan you'd have control over your income over the repayment, and shock horror you'd actually get a lot more than the 15% royality a record company will offer if you are lucky (more like 5% on digital sales). PR companies can be hired and a decent manager and booking agent can help with the expertise, it's not as if the record companies offer that PR for free is it? As I said, at the moment it's simply easier for a band to accept 'easy' money upfront, it doesn't mean it's impossible or outlandish to organically grow a band as a business without such things. A loan requires paying interest, an advance requires signing over more than 85% of any money your music makes.

At the end of the day, if your smart about it you can make decent money gigging (at least you can in the UK) which affords you the opportunity to grow your fanbase, recording isn't prohibitively expensive so EP's can be self funded and the internet can be used to sell it (there are numerous website for unsigned bands to sell music, hell you can even get on itunes)A record company is simply a shortcut, they were a necessity when radio playlists were locked down and you needed to get your record into the shops, and only, but again over in the UK, the BBC don't have a problem playing unsigned bands.
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Old 01-14-2010, 04:55 PM   #216
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An advance typically needs to be recouped before the artist sees a penny. At least with a loan you'd have control over your income over the repayment, and shock horror you'd actually get a lot more than the 15% royality a record company will offer if you are lucky (more like 5% on digital sales). PR companies can be hired and a decent manager and booking agent can help with the expertise, it's not as if the record companies offer that PR for free is it? As I said, at the moment it's simply easier for a band to accept 'easy' money upfront, it doesn't mean it's impossible or outlandish to organically grow a band as a business without such things.
You really don't understand how this works... If you have an advance then the artist has already seen a penny, that IS part of their income, you aren't even making sense. And PR is built into that income like vacation or retirement contributions.

No one is arguing that it's impossible, just not the norm, it's the exception.

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At the end of the day, if your smart about it you can make decent money gigging (at least you can in the UK) which affords you the opportunity to grow your fanbase, recording isn't prohibitively expensive so EP's can be self funded and the internet can be used to sell it (there are numerous website for unsigned bands to sell music, hell you can even get on itunes)A record company is simply a shortcut, they were a necessity when radio playlists were locked down and you needed to get your record into the shops, and only, but again over in the UK, the BBC don't have a problem playing unsigned bands.
You obviously haven't been paying attention. I've never argued that recording is expensive... Touring is expensive(very), and required to make a living now that recordings don't sell. That's what this whole damn talk has been about... If you can find a way to fund your tour and not go in debt, more power to you but that is very very difficult for unsigned bands, and this is why we'll see less and less Pearl Jams and Radioheads, bands that have talent, strong live acts, but don't want to sell their music to commercials, TV, etc... If PJ started tomorrow, we would never hear about them for they would fail.
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Old 01-14-2010, 05:15 PM   #217
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If PJ started tomorrow, we would never hear about them for they would fail.
You're right, people who want to follow that career path with the same limitations will likely not make it in the Industry as it is today.

The Ford Edsel didn't make it either.

Things have changed.

This just in - It's not 1992 anymore.
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:03 PM   #218
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You're right, people who want to follow that career path with the same limitations will likely not make it in the Industry as it is today.

The Ford Edsel didn't make it either.

Things have changed.

This just in - It's not 1992 anymore.
If you wanted more compromise in your artists then cheers that's what you created.
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:11 AM   #219
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If you wanted more compromise in your artists then cheers that's what you created.
Me ??

I allowed U2 to turn into an Apple/RIM/Livenation shill ???

My bad I guess

Oh well

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