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-   -   Obama General Discussion, vol. 3 (http://www.u2interference.com/forums/f290/obama-general-discussion-vol-3-a-210448.html)

Earnie Shavers 05-26-2011 02:09 PM

Maybe because David Cameron looks like an oiled up leg of ham stuffed into a condom? No-one wants to see that on tv.

Irvine511 05-26-2011 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yolland (Post 7217681)
^ Yeah...one can't imagine a British PM getting Congress to spring to their feet like trained monkeys with every other turn of phrase. Especially not when his speech is one big defiant finger in the eye to the President (which a British PM wouldn't do).



i do remember Blair addressing Congress at some point either during the build up or immediately after the Iraq War Debacle Thing, and that went down quite well especially with conservatives. lots of leaping to the feet and such.

but, yeah, Bibi has the GOP in the palm of his hand. i have to wonder where this comes from -- we hear so much about not wanting to sacrifice our soverignty to the UN, but when Israel (rather, the Likud Party) says to jump, large sections of Congress ask, "how high?"

yolland 05-26-2011 04:07 PM

^ Well on that note,

The Hill, May 26
Quote:

Rep. Joe Walsh (R-IL) questioned why US Jews have not expressed more outrage over President Obama's demand that the Israeli-Palestinian peace process be based around the 1967 borders, with mutually agreeable land swaps. "The short answer is that most American Jews are liberal, and most American liberals side with the Palestinians and vague notions of 'peace' instead of with Israel’s well-being and security," Walsh wrote in an op-ed for the conservative Daily Caller. Walsh, who is Catholic, added that the American Jewish community should be more pro-Israel.
This is not a new line of attack--Beck and various rightwing bloggers have been working it for a few years now--but we're going to hear more and more of it from the right heading into the elections (great wedge issue). This is all part of the broader pattern you commented on yourself awhile back, re: Huckabee's and Palin's Israel trips--this co-opting by the religious right of the whole discourse of Jews/Israel/Zionism as all-purpose militant-Islamophobic buzzwords. Then if necessary, to smooth over any contradictions, they can always pull out the trustworthy "Well, you see, there are good, faithful Jews, like my friend and donor Abe Foxman, then there are godless leftists like J Street, JVP and [name of most recent Jewish pundit to defend Obama's Israel policy]..."). Hell, even Jeffrey Goldberg--pro-Iraq War, Iran-obsessed Jeffrey Goldberg!--now gets hundreds of hate mails a day branding him a Nazi, a Bolshevik, and a JINO for expressing the view that Israel's status quo on settlements is untenable.

Of course, for the most part this dynamic makes AIPAC very happy, except when guys like Walsh veer into lecturing about good Jews vs. bad Jews, but increasingly that doesn't matter because the more they ally themselves with these types, the less control they have over where it goes.

I love how when the whiny apathetic American left complains about US Israel policy, it's all because of wily, wealthy Jews dragging around the deeply reluctant majority by the balls (as if public opinion polls didn't consistently find the majority of Americans deeply and increasingly hawkish on Israel), while meanwhile when the shrieky apocalyptic American right complains about the same, it's all because of anti-Semitic hippie/Mau Mau leftists manipulating insecure Jewish liberals who just wanna belong (as if the organized domestic opposition to US Israel policy weren't overwhelmingly staffed, funded and supported by Jews).

INDY500 05-26-2011 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irvine511 (Post 7217215)
you're right.

when you're intelligent, articulate, knowledgeable about the world and other cultures, treat other leaders with respect, have an effective foreign policy, treat Muslims like people, and generally have earned the good faith of the rest of the world that you aren't an ignorant, idiot cowboy who invades other countries out of petty revenge or stupidity, people are more willing to give you the benefit of the doubt when you fuck up from time to time.

There's also the possibility that our current president, "Navy Corpse-Man,""call the president of Canada," is not as sophisticated and knowledgeable as advertised and that his predecessor wasn't the idiot his political enemies imagined he was.

Irvine511 05-26-2011 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INDY500 (Post 7218141)
There's also the possibility that our current president, "Navy Corpse-Man,""call the president of Canada," is not as sophisticated and knowledgeable as advertised and that his predecessor wasn't the idiot his political enemies imagined he was.



maybe, but probably not.

but i do think there's a point to be made about how once a narrative is established, it's difficult to wrest oneself free from it.

however, you're really, really straining to equivocate between the two.

INDY500 05-26-2011 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yolland (Post 7217808)
This is not a new line of attack--Beck and various rightwing bloggers have been working it for a few years now--but we're going to hear more and more of it from the right heading into the elections (great wedge issue). This is all part of the broader pattern you commented on yourself awhile back, re: Huckabee's and Palin's Israel trips--this co-opting by the religious right of the whole discourse of Jews/Israel/Zionism as all-purpose militant-Islamophobic buzzwords.

Cable TV and the internet are just new voices for a union that has been growing since the rebirth of conservatism in American politics 50 years ago. As conservatives (which came to include the Religious Right) embraced our Founding Fathers and Principles they formed a natural alliance with a democratic state of Israel. Conservatives proudly spoke of American exceptionalism which itself was borne out of our founders' belief that the United States unique destiny was to be "a New Israel." The Left has largely abandoned this belief.

At the same time conservatives speak of our heritage of Judeo-Christian values much of liberalism was embracing non-traditional values and views as its members became more secular.

50 years ago the home of antisemitism was largely on the Right. Now it is the Left, especially internationally, that contains groups hostile to Israel and Jews while sympathetic to the demands of Arab nations and Palestinian rights.

Somehow blaming America and trashing Israel go hand in hand in many leftist think tanks, academia and universities, Black Liberation churches, the U.N. and many other segments of the Left.

In 2011 his isn't about "buzz words" or "wedge issues" but something much deeper. Something a great many people in the world would like to see eradicated.

Little Satan and the Great Satan.

Irvine511 05-27-2011 12:24 AM

so how does Israel help us advance our national interests?

surely the world has many other democracies than just Israel.

mobvok 05-27-2011 12:27 AM

I do often wonder what practical benefit the US is supposed to get out of this arrangement.

BVS 05-27-2011 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INDY500 (Post 7218263)
Cable TV and the internet are just new voices for a union that has been growing since the rebirth of conservatism in American politics 50 years ago. As conservatives (which came to include the Religious Right) embraced our Founding Fathers and Principles they formed a natural alliance with a democratic state of Israel. Conservatives proudly spoke of American exceptionalism which itself was borne out of our founders' belief that the United States unique destiny was to be "a New Israel." The Left has largely abandoned this belief.

At the same time conservatives speak of our heritage of Judeo-Christian values much of liberalism was embracing non-traditional values and views as its members became more secular.

50 years ago the home of antisemitism was largely on the Right. Now it is the Left, especially internationally, that contains groups hostile to Israel and Jews while sympathetic to the demands of Arab nations and Palestinian rights.

Somehow blaming America and trashing Israel go hand in hand in many leftist think tanks, academia and universities, Black Liberation churches, the U.N. and many other segments of the Left.

In 2011 his isn't about "buzz words" or "wedge issues" but something much deeper. Something a great many people in the world would like to see eradicated.

Little Satan and the Great Satan.

Did you get this off the Huckabee revisionist history website? You actually paid money for that?

This is simpleton and short sighted. It's no wonder why Republican policy comes off as such...

yolland 05-27-2011 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INDY500 (Post 7218263)
Cable TV and the internet are just new voices for a union that has been growing since the rebirth of conservatism in American politics 50 years ago. As conservatives (which came to include the Religious Right) embraced our Founding Fathers and Principles they formed a natural alliance with a democratic state of Israel. Conservatives proudly spoke of American exceptionalism which itself was borne out of our founders' belief that the United States unique destiny was to be "a New Israel." The Left has largely abandoned this belief.

At the same time conservatives speak of our heritage of Judeo-Christian values much of liberalism was embracing non-traditional values and views as its members became more secular.

50 years ago the home of antisemitism was largely on the Right. Now it is the Left, especially internationally, that contains groups hostile to Israel and Jews while sympathetic to the demands of Arab nations and Palestinian rights.

Somehow blaming America and trashing Israel go hand in hand in many leftist think tanks, academia and universities, Black Liberation churches, the U.N. and many other segments of the Left.

In 2011 his isn't about "buzz words" or "wedge issues" but something much deeper. Something a great many people in the world would like to see eradicated.

Little Satan and the Great Satan.

That would doubtless all go over very well at a certain kind of rally, but it really doesn't at all address the Obama Administration's Israel policy, which differs very little from that of Bush's, Clinton's and Bush Sr.'s.

Anti-Semitism is a latent and intrinsic narrative within Western culture; it has nothing to do with right or left, and no ideology is incompatible with it. Look into the history of any major political, economic, social or religious movement within the modern West and you will find it. You could make an argument that something similar is true about the Islamic world too, that both cultures are haunted by the figure of the perfidious Jew (in the one case they betrayed the Messiah, in the other the Prophet, and the elaborations proceed from there, sometimes becoming apparently detached from any connection to religion but always retaining the assumptions of shiftiness and connivance). But that's all getting a wee bit abstract, and in any case none of it means Jews aren't also capable of persecuting, oppressing, and dispossessing others just like other human beings, which is probably more to the point here.

"Judeo-Christian values" is a reassuring-sounding but meaningless term. Most people who like to use it couldn't write a basic short overview of Jewish ethics and values adequate to pass an elementary-level Hebrew school class if their lives depended on it. Likewise Christians don't need our help to articulate for themselves what their values are. Peaceful coexistence is good but it won't last without both political and social equality, as my grandparents' generation in Europe learned the hard way.

Incidentally the term "American exceptionalism" was coined by the American Communist Party between the World Wars, though just about everyone, left or right, has long since "abandoned" the sense in which they used it. I don't know what you mean by a "natural" historical attraction between conservatives and Israel. US Israel policy through most of the latter half of the 20th century was, like US foreign policy of that era in general, guided first and foremost by Cold War considerations (i.e. counterbalancing Soviet influence), regardless of Administration, and it was under Johnson that the most decisive swing towards military and political alliance with Israel occurred. I would not call Israel's settlements policy "democratic," and that is in essence what all the huffing over the 1967 borders is about.

Earnie Shavers 05-27-2011 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INDY500 (Post 7218263)
Cable TV and the internet are just new voices for a union that has been growing since the rebirth of conservatism in American politics 50 years ago. As conservatives (which came to include the Religious Right) embraced our Founding Fathers and Principles they formed a natural alliance with a democratic state of Israel. Conservatives proudly spoke of American exceptionalism which itself was borne out of our founders' belief that the United States unique destiny was to be "a New Israel." The Left has largely abandoned this belief.

At the same time conservatives speak of our heritage of Judeo-Christian values much of liberalism was embracing non-traditional values and views as its members became more secular.

50 years ago the home of antisemitism was largely on the Right. Now it is the Left, especially internationally, that contains groups hostile to Israel and Jews while sympathetic to the demands of Arab nations and Palestinian rights.

Somehow blaming America and trashing Israel go hand in hand in many leftist think tanks, academia and universities, Black Liberation churches, the U.N. and many other segments of the Left.

In 2011 his isn't about "buzz words" or "wedge issues" but something much deeper. Something a great many people in the world would like to see eradicated.

Little Satan and the Great Satan.

That's pretty funny. Thanks for posting.

Canadiens1131 05-27-2011 08:29 AM

http://i.imgur.com/KZ8qU.jpg

kramwest1 05-27-2011 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers (Post 7217687)
Maybe because David Cameron looks like an oiled up leg of ham stuffed into a condom? No-one wants to see that on tv.

A little slow to respond, but :lol::lol::lol:

The visual!!!

Earnie Shavers 05-27-2011 09:48 AM

Not mine unfortunately, it's how he's drawn here by the cartoonist for the Guardian. Every week.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...5.05.2-001.jpg

kramwest1 05-27-2011 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers (Post 7218672)
Not mine unfortunately, it's how he's drawn here by the cartoonist for the Guardian. Every week.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...5.05.2-001.jpg

Looks like a bad Sponge Bob character.


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