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-   -   Heated Confrontation? (http://www.u2interference.com/forums/f290/heated-confrontation-173830.html)

Justin24 03-08-2007 02:31 PM

Heated Confrontation?
 
Does the person who created an Iraq war memorial by putting crosses with the names of dead soldier have a right to put the names with out the persmission of the family?

http://www.ktvu.com/video/11203904/index.html?taf=fran


watch the video and then give your answer.

A_Wanderer 03-08-2007 02:35 PM

Of course they do.

Justin24 03-08-2007 02:39 PM

But the people who put up the memorial should have asked if they could use their sons name.

LyricalDrug 03-08-2007 02:43 PM

As far as I know, non-covert U.S. soldiers are government employees, and their identities are public information. As a matter of law, sure they have the right.

As a matter of manners / etiquette, that can be debated forever.

:shrug:

BVS 03-08-2007 02:43 PM

There aren't copyrights on names. The family has a right to be upset, but that's about it.

BVS 03-08-2007 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24
But the people who put up the memorial should have asked if they could use their sons name.
You asked if they have a right. Not if they should have asked.

coemgen 03-08-2007 03:04 PM

LyricalDrug said it best. They totally have a right to use the name. It's public information.

verte76 03-08-2007 03:47 PM

They have the right to use the name, that's public knowledge.

Justin24 03-08-2007 04:04 PM

I don't know, I agree with the parent if they don't want their son's name on the cross on the hill next to a freeway, they should abide by what they are asking.

BVS 03-08-2007 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24
I don't know, I agree with the parent if they don't want their son's name on the cross on the hill next to a freeway, they should abide by what they are asking.
On what grounds?

Strictly manners? What about freedom of speech?

Justin24 03-08-2007 04:12 PM

If the parents do not want their sons name on the cross then they should remove it in respect to the parent's. Of course there is freedom of speech but like I said if the parents don't want the name on the cross, then remove it.

BVS 03-08-2007 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24
If the parents do not want their sons name on the cross then they should remove it in respect to the parent's. Of course there is freedom of speech but like I said if the parents don't want the name on the cross, then remove it.
For someone who brings up freedom of speech all the time, I'm suprised by your view.

Is your stance on the war playing a part in your decision?

Justin24 03-08-2007 04:20 PM

Why are you suprised? If I were a parent who's son or daughter died in a war and they did something like this for a political ploy I would be so angry and asked that my son or daughters name be removed. They have every right to remove the name from the cross and demand that the name does not go back up.

This has nothing to do with my view on the war.

BVS 03-08-2007 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24
Why are you suprised? If I were a parent who's son or daughter died in a war and they did something like this for a political ploy I would be so angry and asked that my son or daughters name be removed. They have every right to remove the name from the cross and demand that the name does not go back up.


No they don't have that right. You are confusing your rights with your wants.

And I'm suprised because you bring up freedom of speech in almost every other thread. Why is freedom of speech tossed to the wind in this case?

Justin24 03-08-2007 04:33 PM

So what if someone made a wall with all rape victims and how this needs to stop, is that freedom of speech?

My personal belife is if the parents do not want their sons name on their they should remove it. Why is that hard for some to understand?

BVS 03-08-2007 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24
So what if someone made a wall with all rape victims and how this needs to stop, is that freedom of speech?

My personal belife is if the parents do not want their sons name on their they should remove it. Why is that hard for some to understand?

Names of rape victims aren't public knowledge, that analogy does not work.

Your PERSONAL BELIEF! That's exactly what I trying to get you to admit. This has nothing to do with their rights, this is just your personal feeling. And I understand that, but that wasn't my point.

Justin24 03-08-2007 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Names of rape victims aren't public knowledge, that analogy does not work.

Your PERSONAL BELIEF! That's exactly what I trying to get you to admit. This has nothing to do with their rights, this is just your personal feeling. And I understand that, but that wasn't my point.

What about murder victims??? Soldiers died in a brutal way as did civilians?

I agree with what the father said, if they want a proper memorial set it up somewhere else, not along the free way. And still BVS They should have asked the family if they could put their name, if you lost someone in a war (thank god I have not experienced that) would you want their name on something that is for someones personal political agenda?

BVS 03-08-2007 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24


I agree with what the father said, if they want a proper memorial set it up somewhere else, not along the free way. And still BVS They should have asked the family if they could put their name, if you lost someone in a war (thank god I have not experienced that) would you want their name on something that is for someones personal political agenda?

My whole point is that these are your feelings, and I understand that.

But the truth is the man had every right to build the "memorial" the way he did. Why does location matter?

I personally think it sends a strong message to put a name to those who've died over there.

Vincent Vega 03-08-2007 04:45 PM

Justin, the thing is that law doesn't always fit what someone personally wants.

This is such a case. People might disagree with putting it on, and I can understand it very well. I personally would also rather they have asked before they put up the names.

But that doesn't matter because it is their legal right to do it.

You asked whether they have the right to do it, and yes, like it or not, it is their right to do so.

Justin24 03-08-2007 04:47 PM

Like I said fine put up the memorial but if the parents request the name of their son or daughter be removed, then they should remove it!

This is one reason I hate protest and protestors so much, because they whine for their wants.

Example: During the protests again illegal immigration you see groups of people only concerned about their own race.

BVS 03-08-2007 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24
Like I said fine put up the memorial but if the parents request the name of their son or daughter be removed, then they should remove it!

This is one reason I hate protest and protestors so much, because they whine for their wants.



I'm sorry you hate protest but you are confused. The protestors have this right. The family doesn't.

You are letting your own emotions guide whether freedom of speech should be allowed, that's a dangerous slope.

Vincent Vega 03-08-2007 04:50 PM

Ah, aehm.... yes. :huh:

Justin24 03-08-2007 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar




I'm sorry you hate protest but you are confused. The protestors have this right. The family doesn't.

You are letting your own emotions guide whether freedom of speech should be allowed, that's a dangerous slope.

I am not confused. How many times must I state that I see no problem with the memorial. If parents wish for their son or daughter to have their names on the cross fine. If not don't put it on the cross. What about muslim soldier who have died, can't they complain that their son or daughter has a cross instead of a half cresent moon?

Why can't they have the crosses and have a sign saying to all the soldier who died in an unjust war??

and I would never participate in a protest because there hipocrytes who support communist socialist organizations such as not in our name.

BVS 03-08-2007 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24


I am not confused. How many times must I state that I see no problem with the memorial. If parents wish for their son or daughter to have their names on the cross fine. If not don't put it on the cross. What about muslim soldier who have died, can't they complain that their son or daughter has a cross instead of a half cresent moon?

Why can't they have the crosses and have a sign saying to all the soldier who died in an unjust war??

Actually I haven't heard you say once that you have no problem with the memorial, just a few post back you said it was inappropriate location.:huh:

You are missing the whole point of this thread, which you actually started:huh:.

Do they have the right? Yes.
These parents WISH for their son's name not be on there. This is true, but it's only their WISH. Nothing more, just a wish.

That's it.

Justin24 03-08-2007 05:00 PM

What about them removing it themselves?

BVS 03-08-2007 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24


and I would never participate in a protest because there hipocrytes who support communist socialist organizations such as not in our name.

:huh:

BVS 03-08-2007 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24
What about them removing it themselves?
If it's private property, then they have no right.

Justin24 03-08-2007 05:02 PM

Well then if it's that memorial disrupts traffic then it can be a hazard.

coemgen 03-08-2007 05:02 PM

Justin24, I think you're confusing personal ethics with public law.

Maybe the guy should've removed the name if that's what the parents wanted. The overarching point is he didn't have to according to the law.

Vincent Vega 03-08-2007 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24
Well then if it's that memorial disrupts traffic then it can be a hazard.
If the number of accidents increased and they could show that it was because of the memorial, then they could use legal means to make the owner remove it.

If nothing happens, they can't do anything.

Justin24 03-08-2007 05:13 PM

I still think it's wrong.

What if someone created a pro-war sign and they were asked to remove it, would you go defend him for have such a sign on his property?

BonosSaint 03-08-2007 05:24 PM

Yes.

coemgen 03-08-2007 05:25 PM

Yes.

coemgen 03-08-2007 05:25 PM

I don't agree with what the KKK does in their demonstrations, or Fred Phelps, but I can't stop them.

Vincent Vega 03-08-2007 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24
I still think it's wrong.

What if someone created a pro-war sign and they were asked to remove it, would you go defend him for have such a sign on his property?

That's the thing with law. You might not agree, but it is like it is and you have to accept it.

And yes, everybody has a right to put a pro- or anti-war sign into his garden.

BVS 03-08-2007 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24
I still think it's wrong.

What if someone created a pro-war sign and they were asked to remove it, would you go defend him for have such a sign on his property?

Ding ding ding!!!

That's the point of free speech.

Justin24 03-08-2007 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Ding ding ding!!!

That's the point of free speech.

Funny how a while a go when the founder of the minute men went to speak at a college and was interuppted and his freedom of speech was taken away. Some thought the protestors were in the right.

anitram 03-08-2007 05:54 PM

Justin, I don't think you really understand the concept of freedom of speech or what it means for that freedom to be infringed.

BonosSaint 03-08-2007 05:55 PM

Both sides have many people who say they believe in freedom of speech but don't support the actual practice of it.

Justin24 03-08-2007 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by anitram
Justin, I don't think you really understand the concept of freedom of speech or what it means for that freedom to be infringed.

I know what freedom of speech is, but why can't they tell them that they would like there son or daughters name removed from their agenda?

BVS 03-08-2007 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24


Funny how a while a go when the founder of the minute men went to speak at a college and was interuppted and his freedom of speech was taken away. Some thought the protestors were in the right.

Both have rights to speak. Those rights went out the window once violence took place.

Justin24 03-08-2007 06:02 PM

How could he speak, when they rushed the stage promting the guy to leave and not let him say what he was there for?

BVS 03-08-2007 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24
How could he speak, when they rushed the stage promting the guy to leave and not let him say what he was there for?
Honestly that is not the issue, we spoke about this when the thread was going. Please stick to the subject at hand.

Vincent Vega 03-08-2007 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24



I know what freedom of speech is, but why can't they tell them that they would like there son or daughters name removed from their agenda?

No one here said they can't ask for the name being removed.
They can even be upset, anything. No problem.
That's not the point.
The point is that the law is on the side of the initiator of this memorial, and the parents can't force him to remove the name.

Justin24 03-08-2007 06:06 PM

Why can't there be a compromise on the "Memorial" For those parents who dont want their son or daugters name set up on a hill they should not put the names and for those who want it then put. Simple as that.

Vincent Vega 03-08-2007 06:09 PM

That would be the optimal case, and it would be nice if the person who set up the memorial listened and asked for permission.

Maybe they will come to that compromise, otherwise law will decide.

BonosSaint 03-08-2007 06:12 PM

Freedom of speech bumps up against peoples' sensitivities and beliefs and sacred cows and authority all the time. If no one was bothered by it, there'd be no need to protect it. Freedom of speech doesn't guarantee respect.

That being said, if I had the memorial and a parent or spouse or child requested that I remove the soldier's name, I would. But that would be my personal choice not to cause them additional pain.

Vincent Vega 03-08-2007 06:16 PM

I would agree.
But I think, when someone comes and starts shouting at the other guy, they can't expect any compromise.
They may be outraged, but nevertheless you don't come to any conclusions when you just shout at the other guy.

BonosSaint 03-08-2007 06:20 PM

Absolutely. Let them speak and then answer them.

BVS 03-08-2007 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24
Why can't there be a compromise on the "Memorial" For those parents who dont want their son or daugters name set up on a hill they should not put the names and for those who want it then put. Simple as that.
Well in the eyes of person who created this, that would be censorship.


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