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-   -   Sunni and Shiite?? (http://www.u2interference.com/forums/f290/sunni-and-shiite-161093.html)

Justin24 06-20-2006 11:37 AM

Sunni and Shiite??
 
Can some one with knowledge in Islam please explain the difference to me? Are they similiar in to the Catholics and Protestants? Is it the Sunnis who believe in Mohhameds teachings and the Shiites who believe in Mohammeds brothers or Cousins words? Why all the infighting?

verte76 06-20-2006 11:46 AM

The split goes back to the early days of Islam. After Mohammed died, there had to be another leader of the Islamic community, someone with the title of "caliph". A leader was chosen, however, he didn't have the support of all of the community because some important people, including some of Mohammed's relatives, hadn't been consulted. One group believed that the leader had to come from Mohammed's family. The other group believed that the leader had to be chosen. The group that believed that the leader had to come from Mohammed's family are the Shi'ites, and are about 15% of the world's Muslims. The group that believes the leader has to be elected are the Sunnis. Most Muslims are Sunnis. Both groups practice Islam the same way. There are no doctrinal differences. It's politics.

Justin24 06-20-2006 12:01 PM

Ok thanks. It seems to me that the Shi'tes(more like Mohammeds family) believe they are the chosen ones like the jews believe to be the chosen people? Am I wrong in that interpretation?

nbcrusader 06-20-2006 12:16 PM

Would you say this is similar to sectarian conflicts in the Christian world - that it is politics, not religion?

Justin24 06-20-2006 12:17 PM

Politics pretty much controll everything. The Governments are playing the role of God.

verte76 06-20-2006 01:07 PM

It's definitely politics. It's not really religion. They're all Muslims. The split is very historically rooted, like the disputes in Christianity are, and unfortunately it's not going to go away.

Judah 06-20-2006 01:28 PM

Verte is right; differences are political in origin. But, over the centuries, some differences in spiritual practice and beliefs have evolved...so much so that many Sunnis actually want the Shiites to be deemed "non-Muslim."

Here's more on some of those differences:

http://islam.about.com/cs/divisions/f/shia_sunni.htm

verte76 06-20-2006 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24
Ok thanks. It seems to me that the Shi'tes(more like Mohammeds family) believe they are the chosen ones like the jews believe to be the chosen people? Am I wrong in that interpretation?
Judah knows more than I do about Islam because he's actually a Muslim (I'm Catholic). The Muslims don't have a "chosen people" concept.

Justin24 06-20-2006 02:35 PM

ahh ok. Thanks.

Judah 06-20-2006 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by verte76


Judah knows more than I do about Islam because he's actually a Muslim (I'm Catholic). The Muslims don't have a "chosen people" concept.

Verte's right about the "chosen people" thingie.

And i'm an ex-Muslim, actually.

Devout athiest now.

Justin24 06-20-2006 02:53 PM

I know they are not "chosen people" but the way Verte76 put it, it seemed like it.

Curious how you became an Atheist? Is the Muslim Community not a stingit as those in the middle east were it would mean death for you, or did you simply stop going to the mosque and go Atheist from there?

Judah 06-20-2006 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Justin24
I know they are not "chosen people" but the way Verte76 put it, it seemed like it.

Curious how you became an Atheist? Is the Muslim Community not a stingit as those in the middle east were it would mean death for you, or did you simply stop going to the mosque and go Atheist from there?

Well, being in the greatest country in the world (Canada), it's hard to feel in danger (even from fundamentalist Moslems) for disavowing Islam.

And, of course, it's not like i go about declaring "I'm not a Moslem anymore. Nyah, nyah, nyah!" Maybe some wackadoo would take the Islamists' dictates about killing all apostates to heart.

My leaving the religion seemed very natural (and still does)...it was an evolution (if i can use that term). And i was 17 at the time (now 42). Though, i still like to hang out with the community i'm in. I still like to go to the Mosque on religious holidays, and bond with my country men and women. And a lot of them know i'm not religious, but they're cool.

Of all the things that turned me off about religion, and specifically Islam, this Sunni/Shiite divide seemed the most stupid.

Justin24 06-20-2006 03:41 PM

Cool thanks for the information. :)

yolland 06-20-2006 05:54 PM

Judah, how would you characterize the average Pakistani's experience of the Sunni-Shia divide at the everyday level? Are there regions or cities where extensive intermingling occurs? Does the distinction effectively have the force of an ethnic boundary in real life, or is it something more subtle or abstract than that?

I'm familiar with the historical and, broadly, the political backdrop there of course, but I really have never had much insight into the more everyday social consequences of it. Most of my fieldwork with Muslims in India involved Dalits who participated in mass conversions, plus of course the whole scenario is different there anyway because the need for a "unified front" against other ethnoreligious groups affects things. Still, my *impression* has always been that there is, in truth, very little social and cultural interchange between the two groups.

Judah 06-20-2006 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by yolland
Judah, how would you characterize the average Pakistani's experience of the Sunni-Shia divide at the everyday level? Are there regions or cities where extensive intermingling occurs? Does the distinction effectively have the force of an ethnic boundary in real life, or is it something more subtle or abstract than that?

I'm familiar with the historical and, broadly, the political backdrop there of course, but I really have never had much insight into the more everyday social consequences of it. Most of my fieldwork with Muslims in India involved Dalits who participated in mass conversions, plus of course the whole scenario is different there anyway because the need for a "unified front" against other ethnoreligious groups affects things. Still, my *impression* has always been that there is, in truth, very little social and cultural interchange between the two groups.

Yeah, i don't think i can answer those questions in any accurate way. Growing up in Pakistan in the late '60s, and early-to-mid-'70s (and i visit often), we, as Sunnis, were all aware of the division. And a lot of the time the Shiites did seem like "others," in the sense that they always received a lot of notice and media coverage during those holy days where they would parade in the streets self-flaggelating (it was ugly, because they would do it till they bled profusely).

But, at the same time, they seemed an integrated part of general society (though they were also a minority). I mean, Sunni and Shia used to pray side-by-side at most mosques i would go to (even though there were also designated Sunni or Shia mosques). And i don't recall any Pakistani government ever having to resort to quota programs to ensure the public service had hiring policies to make sure Shiites were not discriminated against (i.e. like the Indian government had to do, for example, for the so-called "untouchables"). I don't think the Sunni-Shiite divsions were that entrenched in social institutions.

It seems to me that it's been in the last 15 years that the voilence between Sunni and Shia groups in Pakistan has increased exponentially (bombings of Shia mosques, etc.). And i don't have any great insight into the real cause of that (other than the traditional historical differences that erupt from time to time in Pakistan along ethnic, political and religious lines). But i would venture that it's a result of the Sunni fundamentalist political parties and groups that want to exert their influence in every facet of Pakistan's cultural and political lives and will use the Shiites (or Hindus, or Christians, or Americans, or feminists, or Pakistan's liberal political parties, or ISRAEL...everything's about ISRAEL) as scapegoats and targets to recruit more uneducated, disenfranchised Pakistani youth as cannon fodder for their political aims.


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