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-   -   A book for the cynics and skeptics. The AfterLife Experiments -Gary Schwartz Phd. (http://www.u2interference.com/forums/f290/a-book-for-the-cynics-and-skeptics-the-afterlife-experiments-gary-schwartz-phd-127237.html)

Moonlit_Angel 05-15-2005 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by diamond
yes Angela correct but this book is more for the openminded fence sitters who may appreciate data contained here.

db9

:)

But if they're cynics and skeptics, they're not fence-sitters, as they've already taken up a position on the issue.

Angela

diamond 05-15-2005 03:05 PM

:hmm:

i think one can be a skeptical fence sitter waiting to be convinced..
like say maybe an apostle named Thomas:ohmy:

db9
:wink:

mtoreilly 05-15-2005 03:15 PM

I have made up my mind. I'm a Roman Catholic and I believe in life after death. Key word, believe.

I don't know for a fact that it exists, but I believe it does. This is the point in faith, and something people very often fail to grasp. You can't prove the existence of God, but I believe he exists, in the same way you can't prove there is an afterlife, merely believe whether it exists or not.

As for your argument about Neptune - what utter nonsense! We know that there is an object in space, which we classify as a planet and have named Neptune, many millions of miles away from our planet, that also orbits our Sun. The reason we know it is there is because you can see it with telescopes, visual or otherwise.

Quote:

there is far more evidence that there is life after death than say that Neptune exists.
No, there isn't. There really is irrefutable evidence that Neptune exists. The same cannot be said for an afterlife.

Quote:

this is what makes the book compelling
Again, it may be compelling, but this does not mean it is true or accurate. Personally, I found The Hobbit compelling to read, but it doesn't mean that it's real.

Quote:

as far as Dan Brown and his books Davinci Code and Demons and Angels I found both to be intersting reads.

Well researched data but both only well written fictional novels
As with what I have just mentioned about The Hobbit, I was using the book to illustrate the point that just because someone said it was good, it doesn't mean it's right.

mtoreilly 05-15-2005 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by diamond
:hmm:

i think one can be a skeptical fence sitter waiting to be convinced..
like say maybe an apostle named Thomas:ohmy:

db9
:wink:

Thomas wasn't a sceptical fence-sitter. He did not believe that Jesus had risen from the dead until he saw the evidence for himself, at which point, once proved wrong, he believed it.

diamond 05-15-2005 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtoreilly
I have made up my mind. I'm a Roman Catholic and I believe in life after death. Key word, believe.

I don't know for a fact that it exists, but I believe it does. This is the point in faith, and something people very often fail to grasp. You can't prove the existence of God, but I believe he exists, in the same way you can't prove there is an afterlife, merely believe whether it exists or not.

As for your argument about Neptune - what utter nonsense! We know that there is an object in space, which we classify as a planet and have named Neptune, many millions of miles away from our planet, that also orbits our Sun. The reason we know it is there is because you can see it with telescopes, visual or otherwise.



No, there isn't. There really is irrefutable evidence that Neptune exists. The same cannot be said for an afterlife.

.

No mtoreilly other than pictures we really don't know.
Unless you and I hop in a rocket, land there and bring back some dirt from that planet we are taking it on faith.

For all we know we could get there in a rocket and it could be a mirage.:ohmy:

As far as claiming I know there is an afterlife, I dont know for certain, but this book reconfirmed my beliefs based on the data collected by a fairminded researcher.

Thomas was a skeptical fence sitter (about Christ's ressurection) when viewing the ressurected Savior (thinking he was only seeing a ghost) until Jesus admonished him. If Thomas wasn't skeptical Jesus wouldn't asked him to feel his wounds.



db9

mtoreilly 05-15-2005 04:09 PM

Yes, we really do know that Neptune exists - other than "pictures". That's like saying you didn't believe the ocean was there, even though you could see it, until you actually touched it. Saying pictures is interesting too. Do you call things you see with your eyes pictures? When you look through an optical telescope you can see Neptune. Seeing really is believing to a great extent.

Quote:

For all we know we could get there in a rocket and it could be a mirage.
Well it would be amazing if it was. Imagine all those thousands of people seeing exactly the same mirage over a period of 160 years. Here's some mathematical evidence that Neptune exists:

Quote:

Neptune was the first planet to be discovered by using mathematics. After the discovery of Uranus in 1781, astronomers noticed that the planet was being pulled slightly out of its normal orbit. John Couch Adams of Britain and Urbain Jean Joseph Leverrier of France, used mathematics to predict that the gravity from another planet beyond Uranus was affecting the orbit of Uranus. They figured out not only where the planet was, but also how much mass it had. A young astronomer, Johann Gottfried Galle, decided to search for the predicted planet and observed Neptune for the first time in 1846.
So there we go, Neptune was discovered using maths about 60 years before it was ever seen.

Quote:

As far as claiming I know there is an afterlife, I dont know for certain, but this book reconfirmed my beliefs based on the data collected by a fairminded researcher.
Well this is a different tact to your other posts. In these you suggest that this book proves the existence of an afterlife, but here you say that this book just reconfirmed your beliefs, which suggests that it doesn't prove anything.

You also keep saying that Gary Schwartz is 'a fair-minded researcher'. That doesn't make the findings of his research accurate or true! One can be completely fair-minded about things when researching something or experimenting, but it doesn't imply that your findings are going to be correct.

Quote:

Thomas was a skeptical fence sitter (about Christ's ressurection) when viewing the ressurected Savior (thinking he was only seeing a ghost) until Jesus admonished him. If Thomas wasn't skeptical Jesus wouldn't asked him to feel his wounds.
He wasn't sceptical, he simply did not believe Jesus was alive. A fence sitter is someone who is undecided either way. Thomas was decided, in that he believed Jesus to be dead. He would not accept that Jesus was alive. The reason Jesus asked Thomas to feel his wounds was because it was the proof Thomas had said he needed before he would believe that Jesus was alive.

A_Wanderer 05-15-2005 04:17 PM

What? we know Neptune exists because we observed it's gravitational influence on Uranus, we can observe it with telescopes and visited it with Voyager II and we will never have dirt from Neptune because it is a gas giant.

It is not faith, faith is saying that something is there and blindly believing it. Scientific method is observing a problem with the motion of another planet and then deducing the existence of another planet and it's movements using mathematics, then testing this theory and observing the predicted planet, and then continue to observe it for over a century and send a probe past the planet.

mtoreilly 05-15-2005 04:22 PM

Quote:

we will never have dirt from Neptune because it is a gas giant
Oh yeah, good point. Thanks, hadn't even occured to me.

I'm glad someone appreciates the difference between fact and faith, belief and proof.

diamond 05-15-2005 04:25 PM

can we keep our anuses out of this discussion?:angry:

let's just say i put precedence over the existence of the afterlife over the existence of
Neptune
or anybody's
anus.

thank u
db9:wink:

mtoreilly 05-15-2005 04:30 PM

Quote:

can we keep our anuses out of this discussion?
Huh?

And, I'm not questioning whether you think the existence of an afterlife is more important than the existence of a planet, I'm questioning how you can say that there is more evidence that an afterlife exists than that a huge planet exists?

diamond 05-15-2005 04:44 PM

somebody missed my attempt at humor:wink:

seriously based on the data in the book by the author who started out as a skeptic and reluctanly admits based on his research there is an afterlife according to his findings, i'd say i'm almost more convinced there is an afterlife inwhich I havnt seen, than the existence of a planet millions of miles away.

there how's that?

db9

mtoreilly 05-15-2005 04:50 PM

So if someone said, "I don't believe that Neptune exists" but then did lots of tests and finally, reluctantly says, "Ok, Neptune does exist" and then wrote a book about it you'd believe it more?

Because, as I read it, that is essentially what you're saying here.

BonosSaint 05-15-2005 05:03 PM

I think most people believe studies -- whether they are scientific, political, sociological, etc.--which support their already held points of view. Almost all of the links I've seen here to articles and studies support only the poster's views (only naturally). I've read some of them that didn't support my point of view. Can't say they changed my mind, because I either countered them in my own head with the other information I had or didn't have the information from the other side to balance the study. That being said, Diamond, I'll look at the book if I can find it in the library.

beli 05-15-2005 05:04 PM

I think the problem with this thread is the audience to which it was pitched. Diamond, you have successfully attracted the cynics and skeptics. Unfortunately that is not the target market for this book.

If you get something out of the book then good for you but I wouldn't expect to 'convert' the cynical with this book.

mtoreilly 05-15-2005 05:09 PM

I'm only cynical about how this has been proved, as I don't see how it can be as it is surely a matter of faith. I have already stated that I do believe in an afterlife of some description.


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