The Batman Thread

[Lancemc]

Eliot Goldenthal's score for Batman Forever is the best in the series though. And it's the sole reason I can't hate on the film too much.

 

[u2popmofo]

It's funny you compare Carrey's Riddler to The Joker, as I've always felt like TL Jones' Two Face is pretty much him just redoing Nicholson's Joker in every way. Regardless, both Carrey and TL were pretty much awful in their respective roles.

And if you're going to make the mistake of throwing Robin in, why cast someone waaaaaaaaaay too old for the role?

 

[bono_212]

Schumacher spends most of the B&R commentary apologizing for the film; he should chalk Forever in there, too. All of the interesting psychological story was cut in favor of Jim Carrey/Tommy Lee Jones mugging for the camera and setting out to bug me to no end. Carrey's Riddler is too much like The Joker, while Heath Ledger's Joker feels like what I'd want the Riddler to be, at least in terms of how he stages these elaborate moral dilemmas with clues/traps/etc... What gives?

What you're saying about Ledger's Joker is probably the main reason I didn't care AS MUCH for The Dark Knight. It seems to me very similar to why a lot of people didn't like Kevin Spacey's Lex Luthor. He focused too much on the dark side of the character and not enough on the camp. This is why I stick to the 1960s series

 

[LMP]

Eliot Goldenthal's score for Batman Forever is the best in the series though. And it's the sole reason I can't hate on the film too much.

I love his main theme and other subdued parts of that score, but more the most part, find it too brassy and over-the-top in places. Fits the film extremely well though.

The best piece by anyone is still Elfman's "Finale" from '89, holy shit.

It's funny you compare Carrey's Riddler to The Joker, as I've always felt like TL Jones' Two Face is pretty much him just redoing Nicholson's Joker in every way. Regardless, both Carrey and TL were pretty much awful in their respective roles.

And if you're going to make the mistake of throwing Robin in, why cast someone waaaaaaaaaay too old for the role?

You could tell that TLJ had either a) no idea what he was doing when he signed on, or b) didn't give a shit. If he played it seriously and let Carrey chew all scenery, instead of competing with him, then maybe something good would've come of that.

Because a little kid wouldn't bring in the teenage girl audience as much as O'Donnell, ass.

What you're saying about Ledger's Joker is probably the main reason I didn't care AS MUCH for The Dark Knight. It seems to me very similar to why a lot of people didn't like Kevin Spacey's Lex Luthor. He focused too much on the dark side of the character and not enough on the camp. This is why I stick to the 1960s series

For what Nolan wanted to do, I think his Joker worked perfectly; I'm fine with any creator, whether it be a comic book writer or director making alterations to fit their work as long as it kicks ass. The darkness of the character's fine, and I like Spacey's Luthor as well, he just was given very little to do.

Frank Gorshin is still the best Riddler.

 

[bono_212]

Frank Gorshin is still the best Riddler.

Always

 

[LiliBe]

Mark Hamill Best Joker voice ever!!!!​

YouTube - Best Of The Joker

YouTube - The Joker: Mark Hamill
YouTube - Joker's smiling fish ad

 

[Dalton]

When masterbation lost it's fun
I'm talkin' Batman

 

[Jive Turkey]

When masterbation lost it's fun
I'm talkin' Batman

 

[Screwtape2]

I'm not sure why people say Batman Returns is a bad Batman film. Just as Miller's Batman has some differences with Loeb's, and Morrison's differs from Kane's, so does Tim Burton's. The only reason people seem to have a problem with the changes Burton made is because he did it on the screen. Batman Returns IS a Batman movie, and probably one of the best we'll ever see.

After seeing it again recently, I'd have to say it is the best. The very tragic elements of the story make it stand out in my mind. To achieve that it had to be much darker and the characters more human. I wish more comic book adaptions would have the courage to go that direction. They tend to be too much flash and not enough emotion.

Probably my favorite scene of the film and puts it at the top of the series for me:

YouTube - Batman Returns - "Does This Mean We Have to Start Fighting?"

Eliot Goldenthal's score for Batman Forever is the best in the series though. And it's the sole reason I can't hate on the film too much.

I like that score too. I think I'd put Returns above it but it's certain one of the best of the series.

 

[LMP]

Again, Returns is a fantastic film with solid performances and interesting characterizations, but as a Batman film, fails in how it portrays Bruce Wayne and Batman (How he relishes in killing the strong-man guy with a bomb only to convince Selina to not kill Schreck at the end? What?). As far as adaptations go, it fails to connect it to the core ideas of the source material, but instead presents a series of interesting relationships that would be better suited for something else. It neither adds or detracts from the iconography of Batman.

 

[Slapnutz]

Probably my favorite scene of the film and puts it at the top of the series for me:

YouTube - Batman Returns - "Does This Mean We Have to Start Fighting?"

That's a great scene. Keaton and Pfeiffer had great chemistry.

I've always been fond of this brief scene: YouTube - batman returns

Like much of the film, there's a real sense of solitude and melancholy.

I love this film. It's more of a strange alternative character study than summer blockbuster.

 

[Slapnutz]

Don't agree with it all, but interesting nevertheless:

'Upon its initial release, BATMAN RETURNS was deemed a commercial disappointment, and the general public seemed to feel that, in some way, Tim Burton had made a mistake, or had “ruined” the BATMAN sequel. I was a fan even then, and my love of the film has only grown in the years since. However, even with films I am fond of, I force myself to take long breaks between viewings. The last time I watched BR was in early ‘95, on laserdisc. After that, it sat on a shelf, just waiting for me to find the right time to pick it back up and re-examine its special wonders. The release of Joel Schumacher’s epic BATMAN IN RUBBER seemed to be the right time.

Boy, am I glad I did. BATMAN RETURNS was a whole new film for me, and a better one than ever before. This was the first time I truly picked up on what I believe the purpose of the film is. It’s something much bigger than just making a “cool superhero movie.” In fact, I think the last thing on Burton’s mind was telling a typical action story. Instead, this is a tribute to German Expressionism, and a chance to examine the fragmentation of personality. It’s a witty, multi-leveled screenplay that reveals greater riches the deeper the viewer digs, and there are any number of greatish performances to choose from. Of course, there’s Michael Keaton at the heart of the thing. Let me first say that I’m no great admirer of the original 1989 BATMAN, having felt it was a case of missed potential. In particular, I never felt that Keaton really clicked with his dual role. By contrast, his work in the sequel is bold, cool, and confident. His performance reveals a man who has forgotten how to effectively be Bruce Wayne. He’s not really alive until he puts on the Batsuit and goes to work. He is truly losing his grip on “normal” life, and he doesn’t seem to mind in the least. A common criticism of the film is that it’s not really about Batman... but that’s not true. Not at all. In fact, every character in this movie is in some way a dark, perverted mirror of the various fragments of Bruce/Batman’s shattered personality.

There’s The Penguin... left without parents to rot, planning revenge on the forces that be. Wayne works his parental loss out nightly, and that’s really all The Penguin is doing. They simply act out in very different ways. In the first scene of The Penguin on TV, Bruce is shaken by his story. When Alfred asks why, Bruce can only mumble, “I hope he finds his parents.” There’s also a sense that Bruce does not “belong” among normal people anymore. He seems uncomfortable with the most mundane things. He’s as much a freak on the inside as The Penguin is on the outside. Danny DeVito does some of the finest work of his career here, and Stan Winston’s brilliant makeup helps him in large part. There’s no doubt that this particular incarnation of The Penguin waddled out of the mind of Tim Burton... even without seeing his sketches of the character, I can guess exactly what they looked like. This is a fantastic realization of one of Tim’s ideas, brought to life. It’s a wicked reimagining of the character, and unlike the changes Joel Schumacher has made to comic continuity, there’s a reason for it. Burton’s work always deals with outsiders, characters on the fringe, and The Penguin is a signature creation. It’s hard to believe that anyone could just call him “the bad guy” of the piece after the haunting opening sequence, one of the finest five minute segments of Tim’s career as a filmmaker so far. Like a dark, twisted Moses, the baby Cobblepot is set afloat, only to be taken in by... penguins in the sewers?! That’s the first hint that this is not going to be some safe, predictable comic book ride.

Catwoman, or Selina Kyle, is a totally different side of Batman’s personality, reflected back and distorted. The timid Kyle really comes into her own following her trauma, finding a voice and a power that she would have never had the nerve to claim as her own if not for Max Shreck’s actions. She is clearly the side of Batman that gets off on the whole thing, and I don’t mean that flippantly. If you really watch Batman in this movie, he loves his toys and his gadgets. Given the choice between the stairs or his funky Iron Maiden elevator chute, he takes the chute. After all... that’s why he built it, right? I can believe this particular Bruce Wayne is the kind of guy who would spend the time and the money to build all these bizarre, almost fetishistic items. As much as Schumacher wanted to make the “kinky” Batman, a sculpted butt does not signify kink. It’s behavior, the psychology of what makes these people tick. That’s why Bruce and Selina are so drawn to one another. They recognize something in each other, some sort of strange energy. Just as much as it attracts them, it also drives them apart. The “love” scene set on the couch in Wayne Manor is smart and funny because it acknowledges the double life they’re leading, with them wanting to give in completely, but with their wounds keeping them apart. The very best moment in the movie is at Shreck’s costume ball, when the only two people to show up without masks are Selina and Bruce, although the argument could be made that those are their masks... that they are only really themselves as Catwoman and Batman. As the two of them dance, we see that Selina is holding on to the last bit of her sanity as best she can, and that she really wants to do what she sees as “good” by killing Shreck. Bruce tries to talk her out of it, and the two of them accidentally end up echoing some dialogue they had said to each other earlier in their other personas. “A kiss can be even deadlier if you mean it...” Bruce slips, and there is a moment, wonderfully performed by Keaton and Pfeiffer, of pure recognition. Bruce pulls her to himself, and as tears fill her eyes, she says, torn apart by the thought, “Does this mean we have to start fighting?” There has been no more human or naked moment in any of the films so far.

Finally, there’s Shreck, the “extra” villain. I’ve heard people say that he’s useless, that he adds nothing to the film. Yet, he manages to mirror another part of Bruce, the businessman. Even though Wayne seems to be a decent sort, it’s hard to be a billionaire and be completely clean. Bruce manages to stay above the daily dirt of his business empire, detached and therefore “innocent.” Shreck, on the other hand, revels in his power to buy and sell practically anyone or anything. His manipulations of Gotham politics and money are in direct opposition to Bruce’s hands-off quality. He is exactly what Bruce could become with just a little push. So is Catwoman, and so is The Penguin. The fact that each of these characters cuts so close is what really fuels Batman in this film. He may not recognize or acknowledge what really scares him about this trio, but we can.

The creepiest moment in the whole thing is when Selina has just trashed Shreck’s department store, and she comes tumbling out to find Batman and The Penguin already exchanging threats. They’re alone, and they’re all three able to be honest about who and what they are. The moment is interrupted by the explosion of the store, but for just a moment, there is no one else in Gotham. We’re truly deep inside Batman’s warped head. Tim’s visuals in this film are extraordinary, and Bo Welch, his production designer deserves as much of the credit as Stefan Czapsky, his photographer. It’s appropriate that the film is set during the Christmas season, because it’s chilly, through and through. These people are all broken, in pain, and acting out. The “normal” people are just as freaky in their own ways. There’s the shallow, vapid Ice Princess, the ineffectual Mayor, and even Alfred, frustrated and growing impatient with the nightly prowls of his employer. There is humor here, but it’s the kind that makes you uncomfortable even as you laugh. Burton must have read every single review for the original BATMAN, because he addresses some of the most common complaints about that film. One bit of dialogue in particular has Wayne taking shots at Alfred for letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave, one of the first movie’s most unrepentantly stupid moves. There’s little oddball touches, like Batman in the Batcave answering the phone with his mask still on (just how well does one hear through several inches of rubber, anyway?) or Bruce Wayne doing a scratch on the CD he uses to ruin The Penguin. They’re small, though, not like the massive punchlines of the first film. And there’s genuine pathos, too. The final moments between Selina/Catwoman and Batman/Bruce are agonizing. Each of them desperately wants and needs a human connection, but Selina manages to recognize that she’s too far gone to turn back. Rather than drag Bruce down with her, she seems to sacrifice herself, taking Shreck out for good. The fact that Bruce pulls off his mask when he faces her shows him reaching out, trying to be “normal,” trying for what he thinks everyone else has. The rejection destroys him, though, and sets the stage for a darker, even more troubled Batman that never surfaced, thanks to the guiding hand of Warner execs and the magic of Goldsman/Schumacher. It’s a shame... if Burton had kept at it, who knows where he would have taken the character? He proves conclusively with this film that he understands the complexity and psychological richness inherent to the character. It’s a shame we’ll never know how much further he could have gone.'

 

[Slapnutz]

How he relishes in killing the strong-man guy with a bomb only to convince Selina to not kill Schreck at the end? What?.

Batman, at his most interesting, has always been a hypocrite though. 'One rule for me, another for them.'

It seems that Burton's Batman had a 'no kill' policy until the revelation that the Joker was in fact Napier pushed him over the edge. Perhaps he had an epiphany at the ball, realising what he had become and that Selina was headed down the same path?

One of the few things Batman Forever did right:

Bruce Wayne: So, you're willing to take a life.
Dick Grayson: Long as it's Two-Face.
Bruce Wayne: Then it will happen this way: You make the kill, but your pain doesn't die with Harvey, it grows. So you run out into the night to find another face, and another, and another, until one terrible morning you wake up and realize that revenge has become your whole life. And you won't know why.

 

[LMP]

Batman, at his most interesting, has always been a hypocrite though. 'One rule for me, another for them.'

It seems that Burton's Batman had a 'no kill' policy until the revelation that the Joker was in fact Napier pushed him over the edge. Perhaps he had an epiphany at the ball, realising what he had become and that Selina was headed down the same path?

One of the few things Batman Forever did right:

Bruce Wayne: So, you're willing to take a life.
Dick Grayson: Long as it's Two-Face.
Bruce Wayne: Then it will happen this way: You make the kill, but your pain doesn't die with Harvey, it grows. So you run out into the night to find another face, and another, and another, until one terrible morning you wake up and realize that revenge has become your whole life. And you won't know why.

There's nothing present in either of the Burton films to support that. You'd have to read very much between the lines to get that. That moment I pointed out is used as a joke, but undermines Batman's basic character motivation.

Great point. There's a great film buried in Forever.

Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS6bD3SpIvk

 

[Screwtape2]

Again, Returns is a fantastic film with solid performances and interesting characterizations, but as a Batman film, fails in how it portrays Bruce Wayne and Batman (How he relishes in killing the strong-man guy with a bomb only to convince Selina to not kill Schreck at the end? What?). As far as adaptations go, it fails to connect it to the core ideas of the source material, but instead presents a series of interesting relationships that would be better suited for something else. It neither adds or detracts from the iconography of Batman.

I can't disagree with anything you've said here. It is just such a good film that I personally can overlook problems in faithfulness to source material. I can certainly understand why so many people won't.

Like much of the film, there's a real sense of solitude and melancholy.

As great as the plot was, it's clear the movie was focused on emotions. Some of the facial expressions and dramatic pauses are so heartbreaking. The music and winter setting give it almost a dark fairy tale feel. The tragedy of the film is that the three main characters are damaged people and in the end what allowed them to survive is what ultimately will keep them alone. There is no happy ending and I suppose that contributes in part to why it isn't as well liked.

 

[LMP]

I can't disagree with anything you've said here. It is just such a good film that I personally can overlook problems in faithfulness to source material. I can certainly understand why so many people won't.

As great as the plot was, it's clear the movie was focused on emotions. Some of the facial expressions and dramatic pauses are so heartbreaking. The music and winter setting give it almost a dark fairy tale feel. The tragedy of the film is that the three main characters are damaged people and in the end what allowed them to survive is what ultimately will keep them alone. There is no happy ending and I suppose that contributes in part to why it isn't as well liked.

Right, there's a level of artistic license that anyone can employ when they adapt material, but I do think a certain degree of respect should be given to the source, which one can argue that Burton never fully captured or whatever. I have no problems with The Penguin's characterization, since it was before his more grounded mob-boss portrayal, and that seems to be a bone of contention among purists. The fundamental problem of the Burton/Schumacher series is that the villains' arcs are at the forefront and Batman was usually the least interesting character. One other problem and this only pertains to the Burton films is a lack of continuity. I understand Burton didn't want to do a direct sequel to Batman '89, but there's such a startlingly different tone between that and Returns that they only way you could accept Returns is to take it on its own terms.

In Returns, I love how they set up Catwoman, The Penguin, and Schreck all as foils to almost every major aspect of Batman. Catwoman's his vigilante side, Penguin's the counterpoint to his origin story, and Schreck's the reverse of his businessman persona, only we rarely get to see how it affects Bruce, apart from his relationship with Selina, the best handled storyline of the film. All of these characters are intensely animalistic, and only be accepting their humanity do they find any sort of salvation. Bruce and Selina can remove themselves from their personas to some degree, while The Penguin has everything on the surface - Schreck is also a monster, though not as physically apparent as The Penguin.

So yeah, I'll champion the shit out of Returns as a Burton film. I'd say this along with Ed Wood's the last time he's been a challenging filmmaker and not just engaging in empty stylistic pursuits. Oh well, at least we have this.

 

[mad1]

I wouldnt wanna hear you guys on any of the Batman movies DVD commentary. The movie would be over and you guys would still be discussing the opening scene, HAHA!

 

[LMP]

My buddy and I did a commentary on Forever that went more like a Rifftrax thing than anything else. It was a lot of fun. Plus, you save the analysis for the written word as opposed to watching it all in real-time.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Theres a lot of awesome going on in this photo

 

[LMP]

I just bought the whole Animated Series off of eBay tonight. The geekdom is taking unprecedented steps forward.

 

[Imperor]

Three and a half pages in and this clip hasn't made an appearance yet? Fail.

 

[major_panic]

Anyone read much Batman comics? I've just finished Final Crisis and am starting the Blackest Night series, but have yet to read much of Batman comics beyond Battle for the Cowl.

 

[Joey788]

I've read a few of the big stand-alone issues, like The Killing Joke, The Man Who Laughs, and Batman R.I.P. I highly recommend all of them. I usually just follow the big comic events in DC.

Batman's entire role in Final Crisis was the best part of the entire series and the best thing he's done in comic books in years. What a great battle and twist at the end.

 

[LMP]

Just got my hands on a whole bunch of Elseworlds, one-shot, and random comics, including the new Reborn/Death of Batman storyline stuff. Can't wait to read.

 

[Lancemc]

This tangerine meme is the best thing to come out of The Dark Knight.

 

[LMP]

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[lazarus]

Just got my hands on a whole bunch of Elseworlds, one-shot, and random comics, including the new Reborn/Death of Batman storyline stuff. Can't wait to read.

Maybe you'll find a world where you're not a fucking geek.

 

[LMP]

Maybe you'll find a world where you're not a fucking geek.

Says the guy who spent 2 pages gushing over Miyazaki's work. Diff'rent strokes.

 

[lazarus]

Or growing pains.

Spoiler

Obviously everyone here is a geek to an extent.

Spoiler

Especially Lance.

 

[Lancemc]

Ashitaka > Bruce Wayne