Star Wars Episode VIII: A New Thread

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I loved it. The comedy and dialogue were really solid. I thought Ehrenreich was great, and had chemistry with Glover, Clarke, and Chewie. He nailed the comedic timing, that joke about rounding down to 12 parsecs made what was an eye rolling reference by Old Ford in The Force Awakens into something hilariously myth-puncturing.

What I like most was the character development and themes about loyalty, pragmatism, survival. They really allowed this to be illustrated by Han, Qi'ra, Lando, Beckett, and even someone with a smaller role like Val, and it carried throughout the film's length. If affected me more than Rogue One, where everyone died but only the droid's death scene carried any weight.

I do agree with LM that the photography was subpar. Way too murky. But I do have to hand it to Ron Howard for juggling the action, drama, and comedy. Not a whole lot of great shots compared to something like The Last Jedi, but it moved at a good pace.

Regarding the big spoiler in GAF's post, it's the dumbest thing I've ever seen in the franchise. I'd call it a Jump The Shark moment, but it happened late enough to not sink the film. It stretches credulity in a way the franchise has never done before.
Like, how does Qui-Gon die within 5 minutes from one stab wound vs what happened to Maul? Who would even have rescued him? Any EU explanation is preposterous and it's sad to cater to fanboy culture in this way. You may as well bring back Mace Windu and The Emperor because hey, we didn't see them die either. And obviously Boba Fett's escape looks a lot more believable. It really diminishes the saga and Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon's characters.
 
It was fine. Much better than I expected but that godawful ad campaign had my expectations right in the toilet.
 
Leia never had the plans until a guard/soldier managed to get it to her at the last second in Rogue One. But perhaps I’m not understanding what you’re saying.

Leia's ship received the transmission. That's why Vader boarded. Then she took off from the main ship in the lesser ship we see in ANH, exactly because Vader boarded and was after the transmission.

So, at the end of Rogue One we see Leia happy to have received the plans, but we know from the beginning of ANH that she is immediately captured and questioned.

I suppose denial on her part is natural, just seems a little incongruous with the flow of the narrative when the two films are connected.

It's like getting caught when you hand is literally in the cookie jar, then denying that your hand is in the cookie jar at the same time.
 
Perhaps I need to watch ANH over again to understand what you’re referencing, but it sounds like you expect Leia to have spilled the beans immediately upon capture. Perhaps she’s more innocent in ANH, and more in charge in rebel one?
 
Perhaps I need to watch ANH over again to understand what you’re referencing, but it sounds like you expect Leia to have spilled the beans immediately upon capture. Perhaps she’s more innocent in ANH, and more in charge in rebel one?

What I can offer is that since Leia had dumped the plans by the time Vader caught her, that she felt more comfortable with the obvious lie.

But, appropriately, Family Guy had fun with the notion of the escape pod not being shot:

 
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Also something is way off about the color palette (or whatever it's called...color tone?) in this movie. It's far far far too dark. There were times in the first half hour or so where I was dying for a little bit of brightness!

I felt the same way, reminded me of the look of Batman V Superman which I though was too dark and gray for much of the movie.
 
Overall I liked. Thought Glover did a great job as Lando, the scene when we first hear him speak at the card table, if you had your eyes closed you'd swear it was Billy Dee in ESB.

As for this one thing:
So Han's dice we have been led to believe were the dice he used to win the Falcon from Lando:
Han Solo's dice | Wookieepedia | FANDOM powered by Wikia

and

https://www.bustle.com/p/are-han-so...last-jedi-object-has-big-implications-7578316

which says:
The Millennium Falcon is as much a part of Han Solo's persona as his sarcasm, but the dice, and their place in the Star Wars universe, have puzzled fans for decades. Fan theories abounded, but there was nothing official until Lucasfilm Story Group creative executive Pablo Hidalgo gave an exclusive interview to Vanity Fair. In the interview, Hidalgo, who according to director J.J. Abrams is the "keeper of all arcane details" when it comes to Star Wars, revealed what's likely the closest to official canon we'll have for now.

Hidalgo says the dice were used by Han in a high-stakes game of Corellian Spike, played against Lando Calrissian. In a lucky roll, Han won Lando's ship — the Millennium Falcon. As a token of his good fortune, Han hung the dice in the very ship they'd won. This fits in with the original trilogy as well - when Han and company visit Cloud City in Empire Strikes Back, Han tells Lando they stopped in for repairs on Han's ship. Lando protests, and Han responds, "Hey now, you lost her to me fair and square." Now we know exactly how.


So now we see that's not the case, they are just lucky dice he had since he was a kid, no explanation of their significance.
Kind of cheapened them if you ask me. At least explain why he carried them.
Was really the only thing that bothered me in the movie. Well and what GAF mentioned too.
 
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Regarding the big spoiler in GAF's post, it's the dumbest thing I've ever seen in the franchise. I'd call it a Jump The Shark moment, but it happened late enough to not sink the film. It stretches credulity in a way the franchise has never done before.
Like, how does Qui-Gon die within 5 minutes from one stab wound vs what happened to Maul? Who would even have rescued him? Any EU explanation is preposterous and it's sad to cater to fanboy culture in this way. You may as well bring back Mace Windu and The Emperor because hey, we didn't see them die either. And obviously Boba Fett's escape looks a lot more believable. It really diminishes the saga and Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon's characters.

Um, it isn't an out of nowhere moment if you're a Star Wars fan since Darth Maul is all over the Clone Wars and Rebels television series.


At this point, there can be no denying that the backlash to The Last Jedi was real. It made a third less money than its predecessor, half the audience seemed to hate it judging by internet review sites and then came this origin story film that literally nobody was interested in. And with good reason.

I also wonder if they'll scrap the Boba Fett movie that was announced shortly before Solo's release. I mean, let's to the math...


Solo cost $250 million due to costly reshoots. At minimum, the advertising budget was $100 million. It was probably higher (more like $150 million) but I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt since Star Wars does a lot of ad tie-ins. Let's not forget that The Phantom Menace supposedly made $100 million in other companies PAYING Lucas to use the stuff in promotions/ads BEFORE that film was even released...


Anyway, you're left with a total budget of $350 million at minimum which means it would need to make $700 million worldwide to break even. The film is virtually dead outside of the American box office and now looks to limp past just $300 million.

So, I ask you then, how on earth is a Boba Fett film supposed to be commercially successful? Even if they miraculously managed a $150 million budget/$100 million promo budget, that would still mean they would need to gross $500 million worldwide to break even. If friggin' Han Solo can only get to $300 million, you tell me how a film revolving around a truly minor character does much better business, especially when the rest of the world doesn't have Star Wars shoved down their throats nearly as much. It ain't gonna happen. Scrap it immediately.
 
Um, it isn't an out of nowhere moment if you're a Star Wars fan since Darth Maul is all over the Clone Wars and Rebels television series.


At this point, there can be no denying that the backlash to The Last Jedi was real. It made a third less money than its predecessor, half the audience seemed to hate it judging by internet review sites and then came this origin story film that literally nobody was interested in. And with good reason.

I also wonder if they'll scrap the Boba Fett movie that was announced shortly before Solo's release. I mean, let's to the math...


Solo cost $250 million due to costly reshoots. At minimum, the advertising budget was $100 million. It was probably higher (more like $150 million) but I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt since Star Wars does a lot of ad tie-ins. Let's not forget that The Phantom Menace supposedly made $100 million in other companies PAYING Lucas to use the stuff in promotions/ads BEFORE that film was even released...


Anyway, you're left with a total budget of $350 million at minimum which means it would need to make $700 million worldwide to break even. The film is virtually dead outside of the American box office and now looks to limp past just $300 million.

So, I ask you then, how on earth is a Boba Fett film supposed to be commercially successful? Even if they miraculously managed a $150 million budget/$100 million promo budget, that would still mean they would need to gross $500 million worldwide to break even. If friggin' Han Solo can only get to $300 million, you tell me how a film revolving around a truly minor character does much better business, especially when the rest of the world doesn't have Star Wars shoved down their throats nearly as much. It ain't gonna happen. Scrap it immediately.



Solo is a disaster for Disney and it has nothing to do with the quality of the film. I still have it pegged to hit $350 to $400 million WW (215 domestic and then 185 overseas unless it flops in Japan and then closer to $350 is likely, not to mention JW 2 hits OS markets this weekend, so it’s going to plummet).

A Star Wars movie making less than 500 million WW, let alone 1 billion is crazy. This shows weakness in the IP and studios will be less likely to move their releases to accommodate the once invincible franchise.

The backlash to TLJ is very real. The movie made $700 million less WW, which is not too unexpected given the OT and PT saw similar drops after the first release but given the massive positive reception of TFA vs Phantom Menace....this movie should have made $1.6 billion.

The first weekend drop of 67% was insane given the time of year it was released and showed people were not going back to see it. Heck, merchandise projections fell $150 million short ($450 vs $600). Yes, this film made a shit ton of money and was undeniably profitable but so was Batman v Superman and that film killed a franchise (The fucking Justice League made $650 million WW!!!...that is an epic fail).

We will know the true extent of damage when Episode 9 comes out. That movie should make $1.5 to $1.7 billion WW, so we shall see.
 
Um, it isn't an out of nowhere moment if you're a Star Wars fan since Darth Maul is all over the Clone Wars and Rebels television series.


At this point, there can be no denying that the backlash to The Last Jedi was real. It made a third less money than its predecessor, half the audience seemed to hate it judging by internet review sites and then came this origin story film that literally nobody was interested in. And with good reason.

I also wonder if they'll scrap the Boba Fett movie that was announced shortly before Solo's release. I mean, let's to the math...


Solo cost $250 million due to costly reshoots. At minimum, the advertising budget was $100 million. It was probably higher (more like $150 million) but I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt since Star Wars does a lot of ad tie-ins. Let's not forget that The Phantom Menace supposedly made $100 million in other companies PAYING Lucas to use the stuff in promotions/ads BEFORE that film was even released...


Anyway, you're left with a total budget of $350 million at minimum which means it would need to make $700 million worldwide to break even. The film is virtually dead outside of the American box office and now looks to limp past just $300 million.

So, I ask you then, how on earth is a Boba Fett film supposed to be commercially successful? Even if they miraculously managed a $150 million budget/$100 million promo budget, that would still mean they would need to gross $500 million worldwide to break even. If friggin' Han Solo can only get to $300 million, you tell me how a film revolving around a truly minor character does much better business, especially when the rest of the world doesn't have Star Wars shoved down their throats nearly as much. It ain't gonna happen. Scrap it immediately.



Solo is a disaster for Disney and it has nothing to do with the quality of the film. I still have it pegged to hit $350 to $400 million WW (215 domestic and then 185 overseas unless it flops in Japan and then closer to $350 is likely, not to mention JW 2 hits OS markets this weekend, so it’s going to plummet).

A Star Wars movie making less than 500 million WW, let alone 1 billion is crazy. This shows weakness in the IP and studios will be less likely to move their releases to accommodate the once invincible franchise.

The backlash to TLJ is very real. The movie made $700 million less WW, which is not too unexpected given the OT and PT saw similar drops after the first release but given the massive positive reception of TFA vs Phantom Menace....this movie should have made $1.6 billion.

The first weekend drop of 67% was insane given the time of year it was released and showed people were not going back to see it. Heck, merchandise projections fell $150 million short ($450 vs $600). Yes, this film made a shit ton of money and was undeniably profitable but so was Batman v Superman and that film killed a franchise (The fucking Justice League made $650 million WW!!!...that is an epic fail).

We will know the true extent of damage when Episode 9 comes out. That movie should make $1.5 to $1.7 billion WW, so we shall see.


Initial projections for the 4-day weekend were $170 domestic and as high as $340 WW....it might not hit that WW number for its entire run!!!


https://deadline.com/2018/05/solo-a...obal-opening-memorial-day-weekend-1202395995/
 
The backlash to TLJ is very real. The movie made $700 million less WW, which is not too unexpected given the OT and PT saw similar drops after the first release but given the massive positive reception of TFA vs Phantom Menace....this movie should have made $1.6 billion.

https://deadline.com/2018/05/solo-a...obal-opening-memorial-day-weekend-1202395995/

It's probably a combination of things. Not just a negative reaction to TLJ.

TFA awakens made almost $937 million domestically, TLJ "only" $620 million.

Looks like a lot of the fan base bailed after TFA (like me).

True, the middle part of a trilogy often makes less than the bookends. But the drop off started before the Solo film is my point.

But even more than that -- the simplest explanation is that people just aren't interested in a Solo film. If Harrison Ford could turn young(er) again and star in the film it would have performed much better. Well, assuredly. But beyond that, no one is particularly interested in this story.

I'm very interested how well the third installment of the current trilogy performs. The people who lost interest after TFA, combined with the people who lost interest after TLJ might continue the downward trend in revenue Though it's hard to imagine losing money on the next installment.
 
But even more than that -- the simplest explanation is that people just aren't interested in a Solo film. If Harrison Ford could turn young(er) again and star in the film it would have performed much better. Well, assuredly. But beyond that, no one is particularly interested in this story.



Agreed.

Speaking only for myself (a huge Star Wars fan but not a “fanboy”), I had no interest in Solo because:

1-part of the coolness of Han was the mystery behind him and ultimately I don’t care about a “Han Solo” story at this point(to your point, 30 years ago with Ford, ok but not now)

2-The Last Jedi was so bad (writing and continuity wise) it removed excitement for me.

3-The actor looks nothing like Ford and Han Solo is Harrison Ford....this isn’t a Jack Ryan series.

4-Han, Lando and Chewy are all awesome characters but there is no threat to them in this movie (spoiler, they all live)


As for a Boba Fett soon off.....I love the character and having him as part of a movie would be cool but his own movie? See #1.

Now a movie of Vader in his prime? Sign me up!!!!!! As long as they don’t turn him into a whiny, emotional type that is made fun of by everyone he interacts with (yes...Kylo Ren) I would be good.
 
Agreed.

As for a Boba Fett soon off.....I love the character and having him as part of a movie would be cool but his own movie? See #1.

Extra emphasis on this one. The old adage "less is more" applies to this character more than any other in the Star Wars saga (for the films at least).

Even with Vader. I mean, we've see him storm on the scene (ANH), in all his manipulative glory (ESB), seen him repent (ROTJ), seen him as an innocent (TPM), seen him start to fall (AOTC), seen him fall (ROTS), and we got his slash and burn barrage at the end of Rouge One. Do we really need to see more?

But yeah, a Vader film would do better than the Solo film one would suspect.
 
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I'll see Solo on DVD. Very little interest in seeing it in the theaters.

I feel a little Star Wars fatigue, to be honest. Maybe I'm just old, but they lose a little specialness for me if they're just going to be churning these babies out.

Also, I was super underwhelmed by the trailer. It just didn't look that good to me.

FWIW, I really enjoyed The Last Jedi. I understand some of the criticisms, but they honestly didn't bother me enough to impact my enjoyment of it.
 
Liked TFA a lot. Loved TLJ.

just in case
never got to reading much reviews, and went in spoiler free.

The only criticisms I heard about were fans angry that Luke turned into a bitter older man, and so the movie did not show a new dawn Jedi Master Luke training new jedi, including his nephew without him or none of the others going rogue while still having to deal with the New Order for major action/tension.
Yes, I would or have liked that, too, but that's how things can go (badly).

Bit annoyed Luke had all these other sapients doing stuff for him. Hamil did a great job in the near total personality change.
And I didn't mind the side romance.
 
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So, I re-watched all of the Disney Star Wars films over the past week(besides Solo, still haven't seen it), having seen them each only once before and having enjoyed all of them to various levels. I mixed them with the OT, watching in this order...

Rogue One
A New Hope
Empire Strikes Back
Return Of The Jedi
The Force Awakens
The Last Jedi

No prequels for now. I really wanted see how the new films would stand up next to the OT. Some thoughts(sorry for the length, I like to write)...

Rogue One

The common complaints about this one are that there the number of locales makes it confusing, that everybody dying doesn't carry the weight it should because we don't know anyone, or that it's simply boring until the second half.

Firstly, on re-watch, when I know the big picture of the film, I didn't find it confusing at all. The Alliance rescues Jyn, takes her to their base, she goes to Jehta to find Saw Gerrera, there she sees her father's hologram as delivered by Bohti, and they escape just as the Death Star destroys the planet, they go to Eadu to find her father, he ends up dying in the attack, they go back to the rebel base, Jyn proposes stealing the Death Star plans, Mon Mothma says no, Jyn and her team go anyway, and that's the rest of the film. I think it's pretty straightforward when you think of it like that.

I've never agreed that the sacrifices don't evoke response just because we don't know the characters or their backstories. I think we know just enough. Jyn is an orphan who was raised as a soldier who wants to vindicate the father that was forced into service for the Empire. Cassian is a morally conflicted Alliance officer who has done bad things in the name of the Alliance. Bodhi is a defected Empire pilot who is following his conscience and trying to redeem himself. Gerrera is an old warrior who has spent his life fighting the Empire and now gives his life for the fight. We don't really need to know more than that imo, because it's not about the individual sacrifices, but the totality of it, the expression of a galaxy full of people willing to not only fight the Empire, but die doing it. It makes the Alliance feel bigger than just Leia/Mothma/Luke/etc.

The first half may seem slow, but I think it needed to be so in order to depict the Empire following the rebels everywhere, destroying one planet after another in the name of destroying dissent. The action in the final battle is bigger than the action on Eadu, which in turn is bigger than the action on Jedha, and this sort gradual build up was necessary so that we could see the Empire becoming more and more violent as the Rebels got closer and closer to dealing a blow. It gives that scene in ANH where Tarkin destroys Alderaan more weight, because now we know Alderaan was just the latest in a series of destroyed planets. It makes the empire seem more ruthless, more evil, and the rebels more brave, more heroic.

Furthermore, when you watch Jyn and Cassian stumble onto the beach, and everyone else who died, and then in ANH at the rebel base you see the Alliance leaders loading the plans up from R2 and talking about how a group of rebels stole those plans, that carries so much more weight for me having seen those rebels fight and die to bring those plans to Alliance in ANH.

I think it's a beautiful film about sacrifice and defying the odds that adds depth to the saga.

The Force Awakens

Yes, it's very derivative, but it had to be. Disney had just spent 4B to purchase Lucasfilm, and when you make that kind of investment, you have to make the money back. Combine this with the general distaste for the Prequels, and Disney really could not afford to make anything challenging or 'new' for their first film. It had to be a palate cleanser. It had to be TBTB saying 'we know what you hated about the prequels, we know what you want to feel when you watch a SW film'. It had to be that way. If they made something like TLJ as their first film out of the gate...it wouldn't have worked.

So it's a very straightforward action film, a non-stop thrill ride that, in response to the Prequels' endless exposition and over-explaining, explained very little about anything.

The film wasn't supposed to do anything other than introduce some new characters and make everyone feel warm and fuzzy about Star Wars again after the Prequels, and it accomplished that in spades.

I don't care how much you dislike the lack of originality, I don't see how, as a Star Wars fan, you can't feel something when Han says, 'Chewie, we're home'.

So I enjoy it a lot, but there just isn't much to say plot-wise. I will say that it's a visual feast. Gorgeous shot after gorgeous shot. The old, decayed war ships in the sands of Jakku, the forest planet where they go to see Maz, the lightsaber duel amongst the snow-covered trees, etc. In contrast to AOTC and ROTS, which featured entirely CG-generated cartoon worlds, here these places all feel real, lived in.

It's highly entertaining and did what it needed to do to jump-start the Disney era of Star Wars.

The Last Jedi

This is really the one that made me want to write here. I'm honestly sort of astonished at the backlash. I honestly can't think of another film that was so critically acclaimed(91% on RT), and yet so hated by a large faction of fans. Even a lot of people here weren't fans. IIRC, I think Travis and Laz were the only ones who really liked it. Maybe Cori too.

I don't really understand who those fans wanted here. For Luke to be flying around with his lightsaber slicing imperial troopers? For Luke to fight Kylo(I mean for real without force projection)?

I'm not sure that would've even been in keeping with the character established in the OT. Luke only fought in self-defense. He didn't even want to fight Vader in ROTJ, so why would he want to fight Kylo? Yes, he had a moment of weakness when he wanted to kill Kylo, but he didn't actually do it, and you could understand why Luke seeing something reminded him of Vader and the Empire he had defeated, and feeling like he couldn't stop it, would make him feel afraid and/or defeated and/or like he had to kill it in the moment. Furthermore, the shame of that moment is certainly part of the reason he's exiled himself and become so deflated.

Luke had already changed from ANH to ROTJ - in the former he was this wide-eyed kid who wanted to see the world, in the latter he's more self-assured, more patient, more mature. It only stands to reason that he, like anyone, would continue to evolve as the years went on. I think it was an interesting choice to have him be so cynical and jaded, and I think it's a totally believable arc.

In ANH, one of the most famous shots is of Luke standing outside his hut watching the binary sunset. It's such an effective shot because it's every kid who ever lived in a small town and longed to get the hell out and see the world. But sometimes, that kid gets out his small town, sees the world, and years later, realizes it wasn't all it was cracked up to be, he finds that the world disappointed him, and the wonder and excitement he had when he first got out of his town is replaced by cynicism and weariness and even heartbreak. That's where we find Luke in TLJ. I think it is a totally believable arc. And when he makes his big final sacrifice at the end, that is this older, weary man finding hope again. And the last thing we see is that same binary sunset. The symbolism is affecting. It turns out that when Luke was looking at that sunset wistfully in ANH, all he really wanted was to get out and do something great. And when he dies in front of that sunset in TLJ, he has gotten out and done something great, instead of dying a defeated hermit, and he has refound at least a piece of the hope he had as a kid. I think it's Hamil's best performance of the saga.

People were upset that Luke died at all, and that Han died before him, but were you expecting Disney to build a franchise around a trio of stars in their 60s and 70s? There would be nowhere for the saga to go. And anyway, I think there is a worthwhile overarching lesson in these deaths, which is all about mortality, that no one lives forever, but that the fight is never over, so someone new must always be vigilant and keep fighting. To not be vigilant and stop fighting is to be complacent, and to be complacent is to open the door for evil to come back in, which is what's happened here - the New Republic became complacent and the door was opened for the New Order to grow and attempt to take power, and Luke and Han perished as a result of that complacency. That's one of the morals of the film.

As for the main chase plot - I know some people think it's stupid, but I think given the starting point of the film, it was the logical place to go. The decision was made to have TLJ start immediately after TFA so that we could see Rey meeting Luke. Maybe you disagree with that decision, but it was made. So if we're going to see Rey and Luke pick up right where they left off, then everyone else has to as well. If you're the First Order, and the rebels have just destroyed your Starkiller Base, do you just throw your arms up and go 'well, that's it, we're defeated'? No. You probably go after the rebels who just dealt you a blow. So from this standpoint, it makes sense that a chase would ensue.

I also know that some don't like the decisions that were made during the chase, but I think the point being made was that real heroes don't do things for glory, and Poe was to some extent looking for glory, whereas Holdo's ultimate sacrifice was not for glory, but simply so everyone else could get away and have a chance. The moral is 'it's not about you'. This was echoed when Luke said to Rey "And this is the lesson. That Force does not belong to the Jedi. To say that if the Jedi die, the light dies, is vanity. Can you feel that?". Again, it's not about you. True greatness is when you give yourself to something greater than yourself. This is the other moral of TLJ's story.

Other problems people had - the thing about TFA's questions being discarded. Thing thing is, nowhere in TFA is it really suggested that Rey is the daughter of Luke or anyone else important(it wouldn't even make sense if she was Luke's daughter, why would he abandon her?). Nor is it really suggested that Snoke had some elaborate backstory. All of that was fan theories, and then fans got all up in arms that that their fan theories were ignored in TLJ.

So if Rey is 'nobody', then why is the force so strong with her? Here's my thing. With the prequels, people hated that Lucas over-explained Anakin's force strength with midichlorians. Now, when Johnson has gone the other way and offered little to no explanation, making the force mystical again...people hate it. I don't envy people who make Star Wars films, as it seems impossible to please some. Another example? People hated the prequels for portraying with such minute detail all of the political machinations going on. Abrams and Johnson both have gone the other way, offering little explanation of where the First Order came from, what their motivation is, or what the political state of the galaxy is and...people complain about it. Must be a tough gig making SW films.

Anther problem - I've seen people complain about scientific inaccuracies, i.e. Leia floating in space despite that she shouldn't be able to breath out there, the bombs falling down where there shouldn't be gravity, etc, but my only thought about that is that SW has never been science fiction, it's always been high fantasy, kin with Lord Of The Rings, not Star Trek. There have always been things like that that didn't make sense in SW. If you're watching Star Wars for scientific accuracy, you're doing it wrong, imo. The saga has always been first and foremost about feelings and moral and emotional arcs, and as long as it's hitting in that, the science-y stuff really shouldn't matter much.

Moving on - Rey becomes a Jedi too fast. I get it. But Luke didn't really spend any more time with Yoda in ESB/ROTJ than Rey did with Luke in TLJ. For decades people have wondered how Luke made such advances between ESB and ROTJ. It's nothing new. Besides, force aside, at the beginning of TFA, we clearly see that she knows how to fight with a weapon already.

Finally - people seriously suggesting that Rian Johnson hates Star Wars. I find this one very hard to believe when you look at all the callbacks so lovingly inserted into the film. R2-D2 playing the original Leia hologram to Luke. BB8 popping out of that AT-ST in front of Finn and Rose was clearly an homage to Chewie popping out the AT-ST in front of Leia and Han in ROTJ. The Binary sunset when Luke dies. Crait is clearly an homage to Hoth. The moment when Luke gives Leia Han's dice(force-projected though they are) was a moment not only of the two of them acknowledging Han's passing together, but also of acknowledgement of the bond the three of them shared in the OT and after. The film is riddled with nostalgia, just in a more subtle way than TFA was.

So anyway, I really enjoyed my second viewing of TLJ, more than the first TBH. Even the casino stuff, which I didn't care for, wasn't so bad this time. I'd still cut the whole chase with whatever those animals were, but still it's only 15-20 minutes of a 2.5 hour film and it served a purpose that was clearer the second time around - that SW is thought of as film about good guys and bad guys, but that there are actually neutral, amoral guys in the galaxy as well, who sell weapons to both sides while they luxuriate in their wealth, not caring who wins or loses because it doesn't affect them. There were people who, at the end of ROTJ, weren't celebrating, but rather going 'meh'.

This I think, adds more depth to the story. As does the fact that the First Order is intentionally depicted as weaker than the Empire of the OT(Kylo is all emotion where Vader was cold-blooded, Hux is nowhere near as threatening as Tarkin was, and Snoke couldn't even sense Kylo controlling the lightsaber from afar to kill him, where I suspect the Emperor would have) and the Jedi are depicted as fallible as opposed to a thriving re-constituted order. It shows that it's not that easy to build an Empire like Palpatine did, and it's not that easy to build a new Jedi order from nothing.

So everything is fragile here. There is an enemy with obvious weaknesses and a resistance that must rebuild before it can attempt to take advantage of them. But never give up. The heroes of old must all be gone at some point, but the fight of good vs evil and good vs apathetic never ends, and new heroes must rise and continue working for the greater good, that thing greater than themselves, and never give in to apathy or complacency, or the notion that just because an evil has vanquished means that it can't come back again. These are the messages of the film and I think it's more powerful than some re-hash of Luke/Leia/Han all fighting together again - that was already done in the OT.

So I don't agree with the backlash. My only complaints are that I could do without the creatures on the island, and that I don't buy when Rose implies that she's in love with Finn after having known him for two hours, they should have cut or re-written that line. On the whole though, I think it's a really good film that stands up proudly with the OT.

Conclusion

Keeping in mind I haven't seen Solo yet...I think Disney has done a fairly good job with these films so far. I find them highly enjoyable in an effortless way that the prequels lacked. However, I do have some concerns.

I fear they're going to beat SW into the ground like they're beating the MCU into the ground. Once Episode IX is out, I'd like them to stop, at least for 2-3 years, and not allow SW fatigue to set in(It already is, maybe). I really hope they don't saturate the franchise to the point of meaninglessness with 1-2 films ever year. They really need to not. There was a report that in the wake of Solo's box office disappointment, they were putting all future 'Star Wars Story' stuff, everything outside of the main saga, on hold, but then Disney shot it down. But maybe they should put it on hold. I'm not sure.

Also, it occurs to me that Episode IX, unless they do a ghost-Luke a la ghost Obi-Wan, will be the first Star Wars film ever to not include any of Luke, Leia, Han, Obi-Wan, or Anakin/Vader. It remains to be seen whether they can make a SW film that feels like a SW film without all those characters. I guess Chewie, the Falcon, R2-D2, and C-3P0 will still be there.

What they've done so far though is add three films to the canon worthy of the Star Wars brand, imo, and reviving interest in SW for a lot of people after the prequels(though I've seen a lot of people online who seem to hate both the prequels and the sequels, which strikes as odd), and that's no small thing.

Thanks for reading(if you did).
 
being suddenly able to easily hyperspace through a starship to destroy it renders every space battle pointless and every single death in those battles during the entire saga completely meaningless. all those pilots that died during the trench run? why didn't they just take half a dozen old x-wings piloted by crappy old droids, point them at the death star and press the hyperdrive button instead? everyone who died at the battle of endor didn't have to die, and lando certainly didn't have to thread 80,000 needles for a pinpoint shot at the reactor core. so the only conclusion left to make is that the entire leadership of both the empire and the rebel alliance is so incompetent and reckless with the lives of their soldiers that they make douglas haig look like napoleon.

i have a lot of other issues with the film that i could have gotten over, but that ending was pretty much unforgivable. it's pretty much the main reason why i haven't been able to get excited for solo the way i have for any other star wars film.
 
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You do know that armies throughout history haven't been using the exact same strategies for centuries, right? New tactics can be implemented and do not invalidate the sacrifices made prior to them. Of course, Abrams will pretend TLJ didn't happen, so I doubt we'll see similar warfare in IX, but it would be rad if there was some continuity so people would stop whining about a decision that seems incredibly obvious now.

Oh, and the real reason not to get excited about Solo is that it's a lazy, unnecessary cashgrab that doesn't even deliver visually.
 
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umm yea of course i know that (i have a degree in history after all, but thanks for the patronizing tone), but this is not the development of a new military technology or tactic. it's basic physics. hyperdrive systems in star wars have been used for thousands of years before the prequels. apparently in that entire time nobody has realized that you can fly something very small into something very large at very high speed and cause catastrophic amounts of damage. we've known this and used this in hunting and war since the first bow and arrow was invented. it's a basic fundamental of ballistics that our primitive ancestors figured out, but in this super-advanced galactic society that has mastered interstellar FTL travel nobody has ever thought to apply that concept to space combat?

it's like if kamikaze pilots in world war two were a guaranteed one-shot kill on every US navy ship, there would be no point at all in sending out fleets of ships to fight battles with each other, aside from simply sending sailors to their deaths. it would be senseless, wasteful butchery. and in star wars you don't even need a human pilot, just a basic astromech droid that can point any old ship (or even just an engine in an armoured casing) in a given direction and hit the hyperspace button. maybe you need some larger ships and a half dozen of them for something the size of the death star, but given the amount of damage we saw that action do in TLJ, even one tiny x-wing would do critical damage and force immediate repairs. hell, we saw one out of control sublight-speed a-wing destroy the entire bridge of a super star destroyer - imagine if that fighter craft was at light speed? no other form of space combat would be nearly as cheap or effective, so why wouldn't every belligerent just fire these dummy rockets that are capable of unfathomable damage at near-zero cost (relative to maintaining human-staffed standing fleets of motherships and fighter craft) at each other's bases?

i had always been under the impression that hyperspace was a separate dimension or firmament of normal space, so that matter traveling through it didn't interact with matter that wasn't in hyperspace. you had to be careful where you exited it to make sure you didn't end up inside a star but otherwise the two "spaces" didn't interact. it made total sense why they would have to drop out of hyperspace to fight these grand fleet battles and why ships don't crash into planets and asteroids and other small ships and random space junk all the time in hyperspace.

i realize that enjoying star wars requires a massive suspension of disbelief, but that went too far for me. it felt cheap and lazy, meant more to get the cool shot of the ship torn in half than to make any kind of sense.

edit: that got on a bit of a ramble - this is *by far* my biggest beef with star wars. i hate this even more than i would hate an entire movie about jar jar binks becoming lord of the ewoks.
 
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being suddenly able to easily hyperspace through a starship to destroy it renders every space battle pointless and every single death in those battles during the entire saga completely meaningless.



So there are easily about 10 ridiculous aspects in this movie that bothered me since seeing it and this was on the list but towards the bottom. However, as time passed this one has creeped up the list because of all the variables associated with it.....

1- it’s lazy writing....incredibly lazy writing. To your point, if thats all it takes why wouldn’t everyone do it but my thing is EVEN IF it was an option, you would think Snokes ship would be one of the most heavily fortified and would be able to defend against that move (if not, why would they even have his ship show up and risk being destroyed).

2- The make a big deal about Holdo sacrificing herself as if it supposed to be this amazing moment in the movie. The problem is that we just met her and she really wasn’t an interesting character or one that the audience would even care about if she died. You know who would have been a character the audience would connect with....Admiral Ackbar! But oh, he died unceremoniously in the pre-Mary Popins scene

3- You have light speed, droids that can speak 6 million languages but no fucking auto pilot??? Or to your point, put a droid in the cockpit.


As bad as this part of the movie was, it’s not even the most ridiculous.

This movie was such a bad experience that O have zero interest in episode 9.
 
Rogue One

The common complaints about this one are that there the number of locales makes it confusing, that everybody dying doesn't carry the weight it should because we don't know anyone, or that it's simply boring until the second half.

I've never agreed that the sacrifices don't evoke response just because we don't know the characters or their backstories. I think we know just enough. Jyn is an orphan who was raised as a soldier who wants to vindicate the father that was forced into service for the Empire.

We don't really need to know more than that imo, because it's not about the individual sacrifices, but the totality of it, the expression of a galaxy full of people willing to not only fight the Empire, but die doing it. It makes the Alliance feel bigger than just Leia/Mothma/Luke/etc.

I think it's a beautiful film about sacrifice and defying the odds that adds depth to the saga.

I'll agree with you that the disorientation I felt when watching this the first time wasn't as much of a problem the second time around. However, I'd argue that cutting so quickly to all these different planets that we don't know/don't give a shit about makes it a little difficult to latch onto anyone, Jyn included.

My main issue with the film was how weakly the father/daughter thing was worked into the plot. She hears he's still alive, has a message for her, etc. and then he dies within a minute of them reuniting. And frankly I really felt nothing here when it's clear that the filmmakers wanted us to. I wish Jones and Mikkelsen, two capable performers, would have been given a little more to work with in this regard.

It's a well-made film that has a different style and tone than the episodic films, and I appreciate the attempt to do something different. I still find it somewhat disposable, though. But, as I've said before, what I like the most about SW is the mythology, and this had virtually none of it. Solo didn't either, but that one was more fun for me.

The Force Awakens

Yes, it's very derivative, but it had to be. Disney had just spent 4B to purchase Lucasfilm, and when you make that kind of investment, you have to make the money back. Combine this with the general distaste for the Prequels, and Disney really could not afford to make anything challenging or 'new' for their first film. It had to be a palate cleanser. It had to be TBTB saying 'we know what you hated about the prequels, we know what you want to feel when you watch a SW film'. It had to be that way. If they made something like TLJ as their first film out of the gate...it wouldn't have worked.

Sorry, but I have to call bullshit here. You're right, they couldn't have made something as deconstructing as TLJ right off the bat. And they did want to distance themselves from the CGI or expository excess of the prequels. However, it doesn't mean that they needed to copy the original films so shamelessly. Desert planet, check. Snow/ice planet, check. Forest planet, check. And I'm sorry but there's absolutely no justification for that Death Star x 5 bullshit, and I doubt you could find a single person who felt anything when those rebel planets were blown up, compared to how the destruction of Alderaan is depicted. in A New Hope.

Yes, Kennedy and Abrams were tasked with bringing back that old feeling again, and letting people know they were in good hands. They could have done that without all the recycling. You do realize there's whole lot of gray area between turning the saga on its head like Johnson did, and the lack of imagination shown by the creators of TFA? What saved the film was the characters, but it could have been considerably better.

The Last Jedi

This is really the one that made me want to write here. I'm honestly sort of astonished at the backlash. I honestly can't think of another film that was so critically acclaimed(91% on RT), and yet so hated by a large faction of fans. Even a lot of people here weren't fans. IIRC, I think Travis and Laz were the only ones who really liked it. Maybe Cori too.

People were upset that Luke died at all, and that Han died before him, but were you expecting Disney to build a franchise around a trio of stars in their 60s and 70s? There would be nowhere for the saga to go. A

As for the main chase plot - I know some people think it's stupid, but I think given the starting point of the film, it was the logical place to go. The decision was made to have TLJ start immediately after TFA so that we could see Rey meeting Luke. Maybe you disagree with that decision, but it was made. So if we're going to see Rey and Luke pick up right where they left off, then everyone else has to as well. If you're the First Order, and the rebels have just destroyed your Starkiller Base, do you just throw your arms up and go 'well, that's it, we're defeated'? No. You probably go after the rebels who just dealt you a blow. So from this standpoint, it makes sense that a chase would ensue.

So anyway, I really enjoyed my second viewing of TLJ, more than the first TBH. Even the casino stuff, which I didn't care for, wasn't so bad this time. I'd still cut the whole chase with whatever those animals were

Also, it occurs to me that Episode IX, unless they do a ghost-Luke a la ghost Obi-Wan, will be the first Star Wars film ever to not include any of Luke, Leia, Han, Obi-Wan, or Anakin/Vader. It remains to be seen whether they can make a SW film that feels like a SW film without all those characters. I guess Chewie, the Falcon, R2-D2, and C-3P0 will still be there.

We're mostly in agreement here. I like it so much because, again, mythology, and because Johnson seemed happy to embrace some of the imagination and scope found in the prequels. And I actually do like the stuff with those animals because it really felt like space opera to me, and I actually found it quite breathtaking when they were riding them along the beach at night and up onto those cliffs.

And you're right that these films needed to be about passing the torch, and not just a tired romp with the old actors. Having said that, I do think fans have a right to feel robbed that Luke and Han never get to share any screen time, or that Luke and Leia have one tiny scene where they aren't even really in the same place together. They decided to focus TFA on Han's return, and TLJ on Luke's. From what I've read, Leia was meant to have a bigger part in the final film. This approach of splitting them up, in a sense, blew up in their faces because now they won't be able to do that. But if you don't think Force Ghost Luke is appearing in Episode IX, you're crazy. There's absolutely no reason why that wouldn't happen, assuming Hamill stays healthy. And I'd also bet a lot of money that Lando Calrissian will be back as well, though sadly he won't be able to play off Fisher or Ford.

As for the chase that begins the film, I understand the narrative impetus and necessity for it to happen, but my issue is the fact that we get some idiotic science mumbo jumbo that allows them to slow the chase down and stretch it out over the whole film. I feel safe in saying that most people in the audience probably heard this explanation and just rolled their eyes and were like "whatever" and enjoyed the film despite this narrative cheat.

I'll continue my comments after this:

being suddenly able to easily hyperspace through a starship to destroy it renders every space battle pointless and every single death in those battles during the entire saga completely meaningless. all those pilots that died during the trench run? why didn't they just take half a dozen old x-wings piloted by crappy old droids, point them at the death star and press the hyperdrive button instead?

You do know that armies throughout history haven't been using the exact same strategies for centuries, right? New tactics can be implemented and do not invalidate the sacrifices made prior to them. Of course, Abrams will pretend TLJ didn't happen, so I doubt we'll see similar warfare in IX, but it would be rad if there was some continuity so people would stop whining about a decision that seems incredibly obvious now.

hyperdrive systems in star wars have been used for thousands of years before the prequels. apparently in that entire time nobody has realized that you can fly something very small into something very large at very high speed and cause catastrophic amounts of damage. we've known this and used this in hunting and war since the first bow and arrow was invented. it's a basic fundamental of ballistics that our primitive ancestors figured out, but in this super-advanced galactic society that has mastered interstellar FTL travel nobody has ever thought to apply that concept to space combat?

i realize that enjoying star wars requires a massive suspension of disbelief, but that went too far for me. it felt cheap and lazy, meant more to get the cool shot of the ship torn in half than to make any kind of sense.

What I'll say here is that if I'm honest, I agree with DaveC here. It does seem like a lazy solution that threw out the saga's history just to have a cool moment. But if I can connect it back to what I was saying earlier about the chase element of the narrative, I think that Johnson simply isn't as into this aspect of Star Wars as he is with the characters and the mythology. To me, having some kind of cool space battle seems like it was a low priority for him, so he just came up with the device of the chase and the hyperspace solution to avoid having to spend more time on it. The reason it doesn't damn the film for me is that I'm not that big on the space battles either, or I should say that I don't have a desire to see them top what's already been done in the originals or the prequels; I'm far more interested in cool and original lightsaber battles.
 
it's a basic fundamental of ballistics that our primitive ancestors figured out, but in this super-advanced galactic society that has mastered interstellar FTL travel nobody has ever thought to apply that concept to space combat?

But why is Rian Johnson himself expected to overlook it? I hate this logic because it places the Star Wars universe within a comfortable box when it was always a fantasy series meant to awe and surprise. For many viewers, this controversial shot provided that very jolt and a memorable character moment.

The one point I agree with you on fully, one I think deserves further explanation, is that we no longer have a clear picture of what hyperspace is within this universe. You aren't the only one who believed it was a separate but parallel dimension that could be entered and exited with no further interaction. Star Wars Rebels has shown that the initial jump can damage everything nearby and that radiation is emitted from ships in hyperspace, so that's clearly a canon they're looking to adjust.

it's like if kamikaze pilots in world war two were a guaranteed one-shot kill on every US navy ship, there would be no point at all in sending out fleets of ships to fight battles with each other, aside from simply sending sailors to their deaths. it would be senseless, wasteful butchery.

I'm not sure where we're meant to extrapolate from this singular usage that it would be a guaranteed one-shot kill in all instances, nor that future armies would be unable to compensate/safeguard for it in the future. One successful attempt doesn't end space warfare forever. In fact, a well-written sequel would address the moral and practical implications of kamikaze warfare via hyperspace instead of ignoring it altogether. I could see it being labeled a war crime with associated risks.

Like I said before, I'm less interested in what this does to known canon than what's done with it in future films. If they pretend it never happened, a lot of fans will be happy and I'll be disappointed. That's what I expect. It's the easy way out.

Frankly, after the Force explanation in the prequels, I've gotten used to canon shifting all over the place only to find its way back in future films.
 
Guess the plan is to get to the Rian Johnson trilogy as soon as possible so Star Wars can continue being an "event" series rather than trying to toss out spin-offs that can no longer turn a profit due to their budgets.

Rian Johnson Star Wars Trilogy Release Date Will Likely Be 2020

Obviously, losing anywhere from $150-200 million on Solo was going to effect the calculus quite a bit.
 
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Guess the plan is to get to the Rian Johnson trilogy as soon as possible so Star Wars can continue being an "event" series rather than trying to toss out spin-offs that can no longer turn a profit due to their budgets.

Rian Johnson Star Wars Trilogy Release Date Will Likely Be 2020

Obviously, losing anywhere from $150-200 million on Solo was going to effect the calculus quite a bit.



What’s interesting is I have read a few articles about how one of the main reasons Solo failed, and make no mistake...it failed spectacularly, was because it was released so close to TLJ and that it was “Star Wars over satiation/fatigue”. I am of the opinion that they are quite mistaken and that it was backlash from Mr. Johnson’s poorly received (by fans) TLJ.

I have not seen Solo but I have heard that for the most part it is a fun film albeit predictable (spoiler, Chewy, Han and Lando all make it). For a Star Wars film to only make $400 million WW ($220 NA), something went wrong and if the film wasn’t a shit storm, I do agree there is another factor. However, “over saturation” is an easy scapegoat but one that only few would fall for.

Look, the MCU released Thor 3 in November and it was a huge success($850 WW was a 30% jump from Thor 2 and a 90% jump from Thor 1), Black Panther in February and it was a monster smash success with $1.35 billion WW (made more than TLJ) and then Infinity War in late April and that mad $2.05 billion WE (massive 46% or 650 million over Avengers 2) and I assure you that Ant Man and Wasp (coming in 1 week) will make $750 million WW or a ~50% jump from Ant Man 1(let that sink in that Ant Man one made over $100 million more WW than a Star Wars movie.... Ant Man!)

No fatigue because if they are good movies and a strong franchise, people will pay to see it. So if Star Wars is a strong franchise(strongest around although the MCU is gaining on it) and Solo was a decent movie....it’s failure is not fatigue but likely a pissed off fan base.
 
I am of the opinion that they are quite mistaken and that it was backlash from Mr. Johnson’s poorly received (by fans) TLJ.

I think that notion has been debunked pretty roundly. The percentage of "hardcore" fans who are embittered enough to boycott a Star Wars film because they didn't like a previous release is pretty small in relation to the general public.

Consider how much money the prequels made, despite some people thinking they were universally hated. If TPM and AOTC drove that many people away, doesn't really explain ROTS being the #1 moneymaker of the year domestically.

Solo's failure to be a hit is likely a result of various things: the brief marketing period (there's usually a lot longer lead time, and the promotion here didn't start until after TLJ came out), the quality of the trailers, the cast, etc. And perhaps there's just a lot of people who didn't care to see someone else playing Han Solo.
 
I don't care how much you dislike the lack of originality, I don't see how, as a Star Wars fan, you can't feel something when Han says, 'Chewie, we're home'.

Oh I felt something alrighty. Bile in my throat and a lump in the seat of my pants.

Look, if you like the film that's fine. Really. There's a fan club and a hate club for every film ever made. You're just a member of the other side of the isle.

But over-the-top fan service dialogue doesn't get high praise in my book. And just about every line Han spoke and everything the character did in the film was just that. Fan service drivel.
 
Nobody's comment on the recent Ep IX news yet?

In a nutshell:

Fisher will be in IX after all, apparently via re-purposed footage that was shot for TFA. Don't worry, according to reports, there will be no CG Leia.

Hamill will be in IX. I'm assuming as a force-ghost, but it's not specifically stated.

Also, BILLY DEE WILLIAMS IS COMING BACK AS LANDO.
 
I'm cool with using the old Carrie Fisher footage and I say this because I simply love Carrie Fisher.
 
Nobody's comment on the recent Ep IX news yet?



In a nutshell:



Fisher will be in IX after all, apparently via re-purposed footage that was shot for TFA. Don't worry, according to reports, there will be no CG Leia.



Hamill will be in IX. I'm assuming as a force-ghost, but it's not specifically stated.



Also, BILLY DEE WILLIAMS IS COMING BACK AS LANDO.



I think it’s a good idea to use actual footage of her and repurpose it as it provides continuity to the trilogy.

Hamil as a force ghost makes sense given that is what happens to powerful/all jedis once they die and you have the original actor of one of the greatest hero’s in movie history, why wouldn’t you use him! Good move.

Billy Dee coming back is great but would have made much more sense if he was in TFA in the orange ladys spot(a useless character that one). Running an outpost for “outlaw” types would have been right up his ally.

Unfortunately for me, they could resurrect Sir Alec Guinness and I would still have 0 interest in this film. Hope it’s an improvement over the Last Jedi but that movie was so awful that for the first time ever, I really couldn’t care less about a Star Wars movie.
 
Skipped it in the theathers, just saw it on HBO.

They keep managing to ruin the franchise. Killing the other of the two most beloved characters - and ruining him throughout the movie - isn't doing them any favours. And the most talked about issue of TFA - the connection between Rey and Kylo, and specifically Rey's lineage (or, how exactly she has so much talent to begin with), needs a better answer. The "big" Kylo twist on Snooke really wasn't a twist at all. Hoping JJ Abrams can improve in EP IX ...

Don't care for Rogue 1 or Han solo movie.
 
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