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Old 05-31-2009, 01:44 AM   #421
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If you thought Wolverine lost points for breaking with the franchise's established lore, wait until you see T4. As a Terminator fan, it's easily the most offensive thing about it. I mean, T3 was a travesty for many the same reasons, but this one... oye.
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Old 05-31-2009, 01:54 AM   #422
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If you thought Wolverine lost points for breaking with the franchise's established lore, wait until you see T4. As a Terminator fan, it's easily the most offensive thing about it. I mean, T3 was a travesty for many the same reasons, but this one... oye.
And with such a simple idea for this set of films, I cannot imagine why. Here's what I think could've happened to make a great "Future War Trilogy:"

The first film shows the rise of John Connor from some regular survivor to the leader of the resistance, maybe play up some prophecy element, have some rough and tumble action scenes, and have him finding out about the whereabouts of Kyle Reese.

Second film follows the Empire mold: one storyline chronicling Connor and the war, and the other with some guy, his second-in-command, finding and bringing back Reese, since it would be too risky for him to go out and do it himself? Who knows. Lead into the development of the time portal, T-800s, etc...

The third film is almost the end of the war. Like Reese says in the first film, Skynet realizes it's about to lose, and in a last-ditch effort, decide to send the T-800 back to kill Sarah Connor, etc... Like Sith, we know how it plays out to a certain extent, but let's say there's a major game-changer, like John Connor dies in the end, secretly. The Resistance continues, since he's become an almost mythical figure at this point, and you get the sense that mankind will win out anyway? Just spitballing here.

Hell, maybe add the Worthington arc as part of the 2nd and 3rd films, which would actually carry some emotional weight since we'd actually get to see it develop over the course of a film or so? Again, this is purely me basing it off the fact that I haven't seen Salvation or anything, and have had this idea for a couple of weeks. Maybe it sucks, but hey, what fanfic doesn't?
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Old 05-31-2009, 02:09 AM   #423
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Honestly, Worthington is easily the best part of the movie. Well, least awful maybe. His character could have been legitimately fascinating, but they too ruined that in nearly every manner they could afford. Conner was a non-presence in this film, despite pasting his damn face all throughout in distracting worthless scenes. And the whole "We need to save Kyle Reece" plot line is wholly idiotic. I mean why take the singular flaw of the original film, the whole Kyle Reece-John Conner paradox, and decide to make the entire plot of a new movie around the genesis of that narrative paradox. Gee, I wonder how that will play out on screed.

Really, this film should have been entirely focused on Worthington's character. Could have offered something new and exciting to the lore. I really don't think there's anything relevant to explore in the current Conner line. It's sort of the same problem with part of the SW prequel trilogy, only magnified to untold degrees.
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Old 05-31-2009, 02:13 AM   #424
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Honestly, Worthington is easily the best part of the movie. Well, least awful maybe. His character could have been legitimately fascinating, but they too ruined that in nearly every manner they could afford. Conner was a non-presence in this film, despite pasting his damn face all throughout in distracting worthless scenes. And the whole "We need to save Kyle Reece" plot line is wholly idiotic. I mean why take the singular flaw of the original film, the whole Kyle Reece-John Conner paradox, and decide to make the entire plot of a new movie around the genesis of that narrative paradox. Gee, I wonder how that will play out on screed.

Really, this film should have been entirely focused on Worthington's character. Could have offered something new and exciting to the lore. I really don't think there's anything relevant to explore in the current Conner line. It's sort of the same problem with part of the SW prequel trilogy, only magnified to untold degrees.
Apparently the original script did focus more on Worthington's character, but Bale's insistence of more John Connor threw it out of whack. They apparently were re-writing the script while on the set, which is never a good sign.

I think that same paradox is what makes the Kyle Reese thing interesting though. It's Cameron's fault, since it's such a nifty story twist that doesn't make a lick of sense, and now that a series has been made, it has to stick around. It doesn't just work itself out, Connor has to ensure his safety for any of that reality to even exist. Throw in the screwball of Worthington's insertion into the timeline and anything could happen, which is incredibly appealing. Star Trek made that idea work, I thought, but things always get convoluted when you introduce time travel.

I feel like an idiot referring to a movie that I haven't seen, for the record.
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Old 05-31-2009, 02:24 AM   #425
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Well, it really just doesn't make any sense. At least in the original film you could imagine Reese was sent back to ensure Sarah's survival in that "timeline" and that maybe the future could be saved. Obviously the timeline Reese was from was always long past that point, and I don't believe that movie ever made explicit that Reese's time would vanish or change Back-to-the-future style, but that it followed more "realistic" quantum mechanics theories ala Star Trek. Thus, under that lore, it really bothers me that saving a young Kyle Reese is such a priority. I mean hell, this is the same timeline from T1 and T2 isn't it? Sarah Conner was already saved, John Conner is alive and well blowing robots up with magical uber-rocket launchers. Who the fuck cares if Kyle Reese dies. He doesn't matter anymore.
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Old 05-31-2009, 02:42 AM   #426
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Well, it really just doesn't make any sense. At least in the original film you could imagine Reese was sent back to ensure Sarah's survival in that "timeline" and that maybe the future could be saved. Obviously the timeline Reese was from was always long past that point, and I don't believe that movie ever made explicit that Reese's time would vanish or change Back-to-the-future style, but that it followed more "realistic" quantum mechanics theories ala Star Trek. Thus, under that lore, it really bothers me that saving a young Kyle Reese is such a priority. I mean hell, this is the same timeline from T1 and T2 isn't it? Sarah Conner was already saved, John Conner is alive and well blowing robots up with magical uber-rocket launchers. Who the fuck cares if Kyle Reese dies. He doesn't matter anymore.
If it is the same timeline from T1 and T2, then it still is crucial that he's sent back to do his deeds with Sarah and ensure that it plays out the way it's supposed to, right? The same actions have to be set in motion in order for those films to play out. Bill O'Reilly may not know what it means to have something play it out, but still, it's essential.

Reese does it live. It's way too late and the Magic won. Yes! Apparently, Salvation failed. Epically.
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Old 05-31-2009, 02:55 AM   #427
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How I understood, the "other time line" is the one we see in "flash-forward" in the first film. In this timeline, John Conner is leader of the resistance, take over some Skynet time travel technology and sends back Kyle Reese, a loyal soldier of his, to protect his mother, and then sends a T-800 back to save himself. All this in hopes to protect those characters. But, in doing so that should change things, and as Cameron proposes in T2, the characters take action to change the future and possibly stop judgment day. Fate is what we make and all that jazz. Then that should have been it, end of Terminator. Good ending. Then unfortunately T3 comes around and says, "No, fuck that. Fate is unavoidable, Judgement Day happens, blargh." And so now we have T4 which has to follow that film's lead. However, if it were in keeping with Cameron's films, all those actions from the "past" have already happened, those characters were saved, and now they're movin' and groovin'. I think there are multiple timelines at work here, and unless we saw Skynet sending machines back in time in this timeline again, there's really no imperative to save Reese. His job was already done. And if he dies, and the machines send back more terminators here, why not just send back someone else to save his mother or himself.

But then it's like "Oh well Reese is the father of John Conner, so if you send anyone else back John Conner will never exist, yadda yadda." And in typing this out I'm realizing how I'm sort of wrong about all this, since if this was true why would the machines have send back anyone in the first place in the first film, so who the hells knows. In any case, this is perfect illustration of why building a whole film around this concept is a terrible fucking idea in the first place.
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Old 05-31-2009, 10:12 AM   #428
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What it all boils down to, for me, is:

1. - T2, good ending
2. - T3, crappy and ruined the T1/T2 story

As for T4, it was hard for me to get into it, all I kept thinking about was Transformers and Christian Bale losing his shit and bitching at everybody diva-style. I think I actually liked the TV show better than T4, and of course that's getting shitcanned.

You get the feeling that the time travel aspect stopped being a part of the story and started being just a tool they could use to cheat. But too much dicking around with it leaves you tangled in a web of contradicting paradoxes. I liked the idea of the time portal being near the end of the war, and the original T800 from T1 being the last shot. The T1000/T2 deal was OK, but now you get the sense that Skynet just sends back a new Terminator every day just to slow the inevitable, and that's got me thinking of Roland of Gilead at the end of the Dark Tower, and that was just depressing.
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Old 05-31-2009, 04:39 PM   #429
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What it all boils down to, for me, is:

1. - T2, good ending
2. - T3, crappy and ruined the T1/T2 story
Essentially, yeah. T3 is the devil.

Quote:
that's got me thinking of Roland of Gilead at the end of the Dark Tower, and that was just depressing.
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Old 05-31-2009, 05:10 PM   #430
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What it all boils down to, for me, is:

1. - T2, good ending
2. - T3, crappy and ruined the T1/T2 story

I think I actually liked the TV show better than T4, and of course that's getting shitcanned .

The Sarah Conner Cronicles was better than both T3 and T4.
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Old 05-31-2009, 06:41 PM   #431
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Star Trek

That was just boatloads of fun. Well done, JJ Abrams - you made me care about Star Trek!
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Old 05-31-2009, 07:02 PM   #432
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Speaking of Star Trek, I found the two-disc set of ST VI: The Undiscovered Country for $5. This is supposed to be one of the good ones, right? And I don't have to see FInal Frontier first?

I'm going to have to be mighty bored even to spend $2 to see Star Teenz.
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Old 05-31-2009, 08:47 PM   #433
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Speaking of Star Trek, I found the two-disc set of ST VI: The Undiscovered Country for $5. This is supposed to be one of the good ones, right? And I don't have to see FInal Frontier first?

I'm going to have to be mighty bored even to spend $2 to see Star Teenz.
Correct on both counts.

Final Frontier is so awful that most people don't even consider it canon. Ouch.

Lanceypants may be the only person I've seen really dislike Trek so far, then again, I haven't read deep's opinion on it.
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Old 05-31-2009, 09:09 PM   #434
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It just doesn't seem like something I'd enjoy. I'm a TNG guy, and really don't care about seeing what J.J. Abrams is up to.
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Old 05-31-2009, 09:24 PM   #435
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I haven't read deep's opinion on it.

Comparatively speaking, I enjoyed it more than T4 or Up.


I would not rate it a 8.5 or 9

probably a 7, maybe 7.5

My nit picks,

I did not like the scene with the kid, stealing the Vette and throwing it over a cliff. I thought it was just pandering to adolescent males, (good for the box office)

The bar scene, when he sits down next to an alien than has a simian like nose, why is he the only alien in there. I thought they were a bit chintzy with the aliens. The alien in green paint, looked like a Troma production.

The Chekhov character annoyed me, and I like that actor a lot. He was great in Huff.
These are just a few reasons why I did not rate it higher.
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