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Old 05-12-2010, 10:35 AM   #76
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Another reason they made these kills was to establish that Smoke-Locke is the true villain of the series. Says Cuse: “There is no ambiguity. He is evil and he has to be stopped.”
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:50 AM   #77
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Basically, I agree with you though. That "remember THIS?!" device is always tacky.
It would have been better done with a "previously, on Lost" segment at the beginning of the show (which we did not get this with this episode.)
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:59 AM   #78
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It would have been better done with a "previously, on Lost" segment at the beginning of the show (which we did not get this with this episode.)
Except that doing that would have possibly made the Adam and Eve reveal anticlimactic, cause we'd have known right away that we were gonna see that this episode, and when we saw that the episode basically had 3 characters, it would take 30 seconds to guess who was Adam and Eve.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:14 AM   #79
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What I really liked about the show was the undermining of the black/white dichotomy just after we'd been led to believe that MIB was straight up evil. The mommy-issues approach might be a bit trite, but again, we've known it was coming. What I find more interesting is the light this sheds on Jacob's motivations. Despite being the quintessential momma's boy (or in my wife's words, "sissy" and "pussy"), he is still out to prove her wrong. That he snapped and went apeshit on his brother just makes it more personal. He needs to prove the possibility of good in humanity to himself as much as to his brother. It ties him into the show's redemption theme and humanizes what I was concerned would be a simple demigod figure.
Well said. And I agree.

You should post in here more often.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:17 AM   #80
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Biggest reveal: all of that shit happened like 50 years ago, as per the degradation of the clothing on the bodies. lol

I am not really upset about that (in the grand scheme of things, that's a production error, sure, but hardly the biggest mistake ever; it's not like Jack does half-life dating in his spare time), but it is 100% undeniable proof that the producers in fact had no idea where at least this particular mystery--that of Adam/Eve--was going, back in the olden days. ...As if suddenly introducing, not developing, and then killing one of those characters in the span of 30 minutes (or just a handful of episodes all at the very, very end of the series, for the MiB) wasn't enough proof. Just kind of depressing to know, at least for me. Glad that they didn't save this kind of "reveal" for the finale, that's for sure.

Also, my hopes for a "Fuck this, let's nuke the site from orbit"-style finale have been somewhat bolstered by the facts that A) The Locke Monster is full-on evil; AND B) Jacob is indeed, as most of us suspected in spite of the show seeming not to want that, a total fuck-ass and John Locke of his day. If I'm Jack and I have to choose between either of those two, I'm choosing option C, come whatever the fuck may.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:35 AM   #81
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Also, my hopes for a "Fuck this, let's nuke the site from orbit"-style finale have been somewhat bolstered by the facts that A) The Locke Monster is full-on evil; AND B) Jacob is indeed, as most of us suspected in spite of the show seeming not to want that, a total fuck-ass and John Locke of his day. If I'm Jack and I have to choose between either of those two, I'm choosing option C, come whatever the fuck may.
Actually, that's exactly what I'm hoping for. Jack, a more rational "man of faith" (I'm beginning to cringe every time I say this) than Locke or Jacob, should be able to transcend this false dilemma. Do I expect it? No. I expect to be disappointed at first and then eventually appreciate the show for what it is. But still, I like that he embodies a sort of compromise.

Maybe the black and white of MIB and Jacob don't represent evil and good so much as fixed/limited mentalities and perspectives.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:37 AM   #82
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As for anything Darlton says, intent means nothing. In the end, we have to look at the work itself. MIB may have become pure evil, but that doesn't mean the viewer cannot identify with him.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:38 AM   #83
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nvm
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:38 PM   #84
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It has been amazing! I can't wait to get the box set and watch it all from the beginning again. I'm sure there will be a lot of things that will make more sense once it's ended.
Our whole family re-watched 1-4 before 5 and a LOT of stuff made a lot more sense, plus we picked up on a lot of stuff that we missed first time.

We will do the same when the boxed set comes out.

So sad it's ending, but it's not disappointing so far.

Best TV show ever after Arrested Development.
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:43 PM   #85
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The only time I've ever thought Allison Janney wasn't a good actress. She was phoning it in, or she just didn't believe in the whole thing. Just my impression of it.
This sounds unfair, but I feel like someone with an exotic accent would have worked better? Especially when America won't exist for thousands of years after this episode takes place? I understand they couldn't have subtitled the whole episode but a "foreign" shading would have helped here, and the fact that Jacob and MIB speak American English could be explained by the presence of Dharma or something.

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Another reason they made these kills was to establish that Smoke-Locke is the true villain of the series. Says Cuse: “There is no ambiguity. He is evil and he has to be stopped.”
Why does Boner LIE??

Dude, judge the show itself, not what the producers advertise it as. Who gives a shit?
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:50 PM   #86
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Everybody who watches the show, I'm willing to bet, cares about essential story components like, say, who the antagonist(s) is(are). Even though you lately seem terrified of me for not being 100% behind every episode, I'm sure that you do, too. You're saying that if you didn't know whether Luke Skywalker was a good or a bad guy until the last 30 minutes of Return of the Jedi, that story would work? Come on, B. Am I maybe misunderstanding you?
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:57 PM   #87
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Everybody who watches the show, I'm willing to bet, cares about essential story components like, say, who the antagonist(s) is(are). Even though you lately seem terrified of me for not being 100% behind every episode, I'm sure that you do, too. You're saying that if you didn't know whether Luke Skywalker was a good or a bad guy until the last 30 minutes of Return of the Jedi, that story would work? Come on, B. Am I maybe misunderstanding you?
There's a time and a place for "good guys vs. bad guys" type movies/shows, and a time and a place for shows where maybe things aren't always what they seem.

If you've been with Lost from Day 1 you'll know it's always been the latter, why expect it to change now ?
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:01 PM   #88
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Everybody who watches the show, I'm willing to bet, cares about essential story components like, say, who the antagonist(s) is(are). Even though you lately seem terrified of me for not being 100% behind every episode, I'm sure that you do, too. You're saying that if you didn't know whether Luke Skywalker was a good or a bad guy until the last 30 minutes of Return of the Jedi, that story would work? Come on, B. Am I maybe misunderstanding you?
Wrong comparison. You don't know if Darth Vader is a good or bad guy until the end of the film. It's not Luke's story thematically, it's Anakin's. And I think that denouement worked pretty well, yes. Jack = Luke, as in whiny bitch and "I've got to save you!"

Also, Lost is a little more complex than Star Wars.
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:09 PM   #89
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That was a very Lost non-answer. Well played, I have to say. Damn you, Ben!

I'd rather not get into Star Wars, but you're right in accidentally implying that Jedi is a weak film because, much like this last season, it attempts to change everything that has come before simply by telling you that everything was something it wasn't. Rather than, you know, it actually being the case. If it is Vader's story simply because Lucas says it is (and that's the only way you can make that claim, as CLEARLY Luke is the main, if not most compelling character), then you have to concede that the MiB is pure, buck-ass-wild evil because Cuse and Lindelof say so. In addition to the fact that, you know, he clearly IS evil. At least in the wake of all that we saw, last night. Seemed like a cool bro, back in the ancient times.

To be clear, I'm not upset that the smoke monster is evil or wasn't once evil. That's fine. I'm pretty sure that I brought that up simply because we now know that neither Jacob nor the MiB are "good guys." In fact, they are either full-on bad guys (MiB) or pretty fucking sketchy assholes (Jacob). I am happy about that, in the long run, because it gives me hope that the first few seasons weren't just a directionless clusterfuck of non-narrative stalling. If it turns out that the show's narrative is actually "How the fuck do they get off of this damned island?" then I will be pleased. Who knows whether or not we'll like how that story is told, if it in fact is? But I would be glad to know that the first, like, 70 episodes weren't being retconned as a total feint.
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:43 PM   #90
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Luke is not the most compelling character. I don't know anyone else who thinks that. And the moment Vader tells Luke he is his father, he becomes more than a simple antagonist, and their connection is something that becomes the driving force behind all of Jedi, even if the "redemption" angle isn't one Luke overtly states until midway through the film.

Also, Star Wars is a 6-part saga, not a 3-part one, and Anakin's character arc is clearly what the whole thing is meant to be about.

I do understand/agree with your second paragraph, though.
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