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Old 05-24-2010, 03:39 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by lazarus View Post
WIN.

And it looks like we're in agreement as to what happened; you posted right before me.

Also, someone writing for the L.A. Times can be just as obtuse as you are. I love how the wreckage is supposed to imply they all died in the crash--nope, it's the wreckage that HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE THE LAST SIX SEASONS.

If they had died on impact, they wouldn't have known each other, and would have no reason to meet in any alternate reality/purgatory/whatever.
The writers wrote this very sloppy, you can argue it your way
it does not hold up, they had Richard say:

"You want to know a secret, Jack?" Richard says. "Something I've known a long, long time?" He leans down to Jack's face. "You're dead."

"You mean that figuratively, right?" Hurley says.

"No, I mean it literally. We're all dead. Every single one of us." Richard puts his arms out to the side. "And this, this, all this. It's not what you think it is. We're not on an island. We never were. We're in Hell. So I'm not interested in what Jacob said. In fact, maybe it's time we stop listening to him and we start listening to someone else. And that's exactly what I'm going to do." He takes a torch and walks away.
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Old 05-24-2010, 03:43 AM   #452
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Yeah, as BoMac said, this. I can't think of a more compelling, concise argument than that.
as someone who appreciates good writing

Deadwood
The Wire, etc

can't you at least be fair enough admit this series is full of holes
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Old 05-24-2010, 03:51 AM   #453
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Yeah, I mean, I had the same takeaway....

The 6 seasons worth of Island activity did indeed happen. Jack dies on the Island, but Rose, Hurley, Ben, etc, live on....for who knows how much longer.

When they die, whenever that is, they find themselves in the flash sideways world...as was made clear by Christian, that world is not at all linear, and was (somehow) a construct made by the 815 survivors as a means to gather together and advance onwards (to where, no idea) together, since they mean(t) so much to one another.

Not only is that my take on it, but it seemed fairly clear, as well. But, of course, I could be very wrong. I just don't think I am, is all.
You're not wrong.

But yeah, it seemed pretty clear to me too. Many of them lived on and lived who knows how long. Only those we saw die over the run of the show died before Jack, everyone else after. But when they did die, they came together again since these were the people important to them. As said, time was not linear in the "sideways world". I liked when Hurley told Ben he'd been a great #2. I wonder how long their story had gone on... SPIN OFF!
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Old 05-24-2010, 03:53 AM   #454
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as someone who appreciates good writing

Deadwood
The Wire, etc

can't you at least be fair enough admit this series is full of holes
I would never in a million years say that there are no holes in this show, especially from season 4 on. Absolutely. I never really would make mention of them too often because I will admit to not caring too much: I just roll along with the show and recognize the bad but focus on what I enjoy (and by the way, if that makes me an "apologist" so be it, I don't care. Sometimes, it's good to just let go and enjoy a thing, especially a thing designed for one reason only: your entertainment. If it stops being entertaining, you stop partaking).....and even during the weaker seasons, I enjoy it a lot, I just do. And perhaps sometimes that's a function of story/concept/big picture triumphing over execution, no doubt.

But we're not talking about young Jacob and MIB wearing the "wrong" types of clothes or Kate reaching for keys instead of Sawyer tugging on a belt....we're talking about how the show finishes up, etc. And, I'll tell you what, if the producers ever come out and say, definitively, that the Island stuff never happened, that the crash killed everyone on impact, etc, then I'll roll my eyes and shake my head and whatnot.......but, until they say that, nobody can convince me that all of the Island stuff was a "dream".
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Old 05-24-2010, 03:56 AM   #455
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You're not wrong.

But yeah, it seemed pretty clear to me too. Many of them lived on and lived who knows how long. Only those we saw die over the run of the show died before Jack, everyone else after. But when they did die, they came together again since these were the people important to them. As said, time was not linear in the "sideways world". I liked when Hurley told Ben he'd been a great #2. I wonder how long their story had gone on... SPIN OFF!
If I had to choose one LOST spin-off, it would be Sayid and Ben roaming the globe, killing people. Bad people, sure, but, still.
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Old 05-24-2010, 03:57 AM   #456
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If the Island was a dream, did they dream up Ab Aeterno and Across the Sea, too? Why spend two episodes showing us the Island history when it isn't real anyway?
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Old 05-24-2010, 04:03 AM   #457
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The writers wrote this very sloppy, you can argue it your way
it does not hold up, they had Richard say:

"You want to know a secret, Jack?" Richard says. "Something I've known a long, long time?" He leans down to Jack's face. "You're dead."

"You mean that figuratively, right?" Hurley says.

"No, I mean it literally. We're all dead. Every single one of us." Richard puts his arms out to the side. "And this, this, all this. It's not what you think it is. We're not on an island. We never were. We're in Hell. So I'm not interested in what Jacob said. In fact, maybe it's time we stop listening to him and we start listening to someone else. And that's exactly what I'm going to do." He takes a torch and walks away.
Yeah, because Richard wasn't wrong about ANYTHING, and he had all the answers. He was just as in the dark as anyone else.

I feel sorry for you, either for having shitty taste or for not being able to understand what's right in front of your face.
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Old 05-24-2010, 04:05 AM   #458
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Laz, relax it is just a made up t v show, it is not real

we are just disagreeing about how well it was executed.

Why was Kate, Sawyer, and others that made it off the island on that second plane in the church with all the other supposed dead people?
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Old 05-24-2010, 04:07 AM   #459
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Why was Kate, Sawyer and others that made it off the island on that second plane in the church with all the other dead people?
Everybody dies SOME TIME. *see: Time is not Linear*
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Old 05-24-2010, 04:09 AM   #460
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I have watched every episode because there are enough aspects of the show I do like. I have mentioned them before, the casting, production values, music scoring. I also think the writing was fairly good through season 5.

Why did they have Richard say "I mean it literally. We're all dead. Every single one of us."?

Why was Kate, Sawyer and others that made it off the island on that second plane in the church with all the other dead people?
Are you intentionally being obtuse?

Christian Shephard told Jack that time was not linear, some died before and some after him. So at some point, like all of us will, Kate and Sawyer died and joined the rest in that church.

Richard said that, because as a religious man who committed murder, he was told by the priest that he would go to hell. Then he ended up on the Island and was confronted by MIB and Jacob, who he thought was the Devil and God, respectively.

When it was revealed many years later that he was left in the dark by Jacob, he had lost his faith in the Island and Jacob, and reverted to his initial thoughts 140 years earlier, that the Island, in fact, was hell.
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Old 05-24-2010, 04:11 AM   #461
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Everybody dies SOME TIME. *see Time is not linear*
What she said.

Deep, Christian explains to Jack that everyone in the church eventually died in the 815 did crash world. He goes on to explain to Jack that some died before him (Sun, Jin, Locke, etc) and some died afterwards (Ben, Hurley, Kate, etc) but that since the sideways world is not linear, it's not relevant when they died. This is not a personal interpretation, Deep, this is exactly what Christian said to Jack.
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Old 05-24-2010, 04:19 AM   #462
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Yes. I do remember what live dead Christian that got out of his coffin said to Jack. And that part supports your premise.

So was that whole sideways world only purpose to have all of those people available to meet Jack at that church when he would die in real time on the island?
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Old 05-24-2010, 04:22 AM   #463
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So was that whole sideways world only purpose to have all of those people available to meet Jack at that church when he would die in real time on the island?
No, but it was Jack's death that we did follow here tonight. We saw just one of their stories end. (Jack's) Everyone else had their own end somewhere, some time too, and met up here as well. (rememeber ... time is not linear here (in the church place/sideways world))


Edit to say that actually you are kind of grasping it now. Yes it did exist for them to meet up in, but not just for Jack. It's for all of them when their death comes.
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Old 05-24-2010, 04:46 AM   #464
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it appears that all the passengers on flight 815 died on impact,
Jack had no son, (in the hospital Locke told Jack he had no son) Jun and Jin had no baby and neither did Claire,
they were all in the church without any offspring
False, man. There certainly was an offspring at the church. Claire had her baby. Aaron was very clearly there at the final scene. I don't know what you're talking about.

I'll be back for my real comments on the episode (which I loved) tomorrow. Peace.
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Old 05-24-2010, 05:36 AM   #465
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I may have missed that
I guess baby Arron was dead?


the church was filled with dead people, right?
someone stayed outside, who was that?
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