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Old 05-19-2009, 10:08 PM   #781
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Guess I was wrong about Jacob being not a real person.

Wow, only in Lost could they introduce two entirely new actors to the cast and we all accept it with out blinking.

I thought that this was a great end to the season. I wish they'd do a full season for the final season, start in like October and run all the way through to May with like 26 episodes (wishful thinking, I know).

I do agree though that the constant changing of minds with Kate and Juliet stretched credibility though.
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Old 05-19-2009, 11:34 PM   #782
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Guess I was wrong about Jacob being not a real person.
are you sure

is Locke real

or which Locke is real?
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Old 05-21-2009, 11:07 AM   #783
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Ok guys I have it! Well...this is what occurred to me, anyways. Note I don't follow any online discussion of Lost before the last couple of pages of this thread, period. So if this has been stated before, sorry.

The Island = the Garden of Eden ("paradise lost"?)

Jacob = Christ / God's physical manifestation on earth (assuming you believe in the trinity, even if you don't, call Christ God's son and representative, it's still the same)

Esau = Satan in his physical manifestation
John Locke = Satan again (remember, he can't kill Jesus himself, but he can drive someone else to do it)

The Smoke Monster = The Holy Spirit, and it too can manifest itself in apparitions and it can also do nasty things and wreak God's vengeance

Ben = Judas Iscariot - he sold out his daughter (30 pieces) only to be disappointed. He lusted for power but Christ was never going to give it to him, he was going to give it to Peter. So he kills Jesus, right after Jesus spurns him. Cain also fits this profile.

I think Richard is someone like Abel, John the Baptist (heralds the coming of the savior) or Peter (the next in line)

Ok so in the bible the Devil set up a bet of sorts with God, basically saying that mankind would not remain faithful to him if tempted and would let him down every time and that left to their own devices, man would ruin the world (well, the world as they knew it, ie, Paradise). When Satan won round 1, God acquiesed and allowed the Devil control over the world, save this one little piece of Paradise which was plunged into this endless loop of God trying to find the right set of people who would redeem themselves and thus prove God right. They only have to get it right once, and Good triumphs finally over evil.

The people on the island are descendants of Cain and Abel. They are doing the thing with the commune and babies in order to try to regain the paradise community and also I feel that the pregnancy has some correlation to the immaculate conception of a savior.

The thing with the pregnancy..I think Jacob knows (like Christ did) that he is going to be killed and this is where it veers off the track here a bit...he allows the people to think that any child born on the island will be unique and special and therefore naturally the 'chosen one'

Ok what else...other people of note who need to be tied in here? I don't really know where this leaves Jack, Kate and the rest of them other than that they are the bit players in the neverending loop that we are getting a glimpse into. the reason I say this is because of how insignificant Ben really is. He's just another mortal caught up in the thing, according to Jacob

thoughts?
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Old 05-21-2009, 11:14 AM   #784
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Interesting thoughts, Gabe. There's a couple of REALLY good forums U guys should check out.

Lostpedia - The Lost Encyclopedia - the site's brilliant, so is the FORUM. AND....

www.docarzt.com - Great essays.

Check it out.
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Old 05-21-2009, 11:23 AM   #785
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When you say that the people are the descendants of Cain and Abel, who are you talking about? The hostiles? The Dharma Initiative?
Also, Abel didn't have children, did he? I thought he died while he was still young.

I don't see how Ben could be Cain because that would mean he is closely related to Jacob (Abel in this scenario). Unless somehow Abel is supposed to be off-island Locke. It still doesn't feel quite right because I'm not sure we understand why Ben went back to the island. Just to spite/run away from Widmore?

And who is Widmore supposed to be? I think there's a parallel that we haven't touched upon with Ben/Widmore, Jacob/"Esau." They can't kill each other for one reason or another, and we still don't understand why Ben didn't just knife Widmore (or vice versa) when he had the chance.

I too like the idea of the Smoke Monster being The Holy Spirit, but I don't think it would have manipulated Ben to kill Jacob. I think it's more of an Esau object, as was the fake Jacob cabin in the woods and the apparition of Christian and Claire.
I think Jack is important for this very reason too. Two of his immediate family members are appearing to others. I'm going to guess they will both appear to Jack in the future and make him the next pawn in the game. (Ben and Locke being the other pawns.)

I've posted my own religious theories on other sites and have been told repeatedly that the writers said it would not be overtly religious in its theme, but I still find that hard to believe. Jacob and Christian Shepherd and Ben's explanation of St. Thomas Aquinas are just too much to bear.
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Old 05-21-2009, 12:50 PM   #786
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Not overtly religious my ass. I think it's so completely religious and with a level of complixity that most won't necessarily pick up on right away. It's not the stuff they taught in Sunday school.

The Holy Spirit is just another manifestation of God. Both Satan and Jesus and all of the angels and for that matter man were created in God's image and are God's sons. Could he mimic the physical appearance of the Holy Spirit? I think he could.

Ok now that I have this in my head wow am I remembering alot of biblical parallels. I agree Ben isn't Cain per se, but I don't think anyone is anyone per se, I think this is about characters who play the original roles of the first offspring of Adam and Eve, over and over. There's Lucifer and Michael, Cain & Abel, Jacob & Esau, etc etc, all these brothers who always fight one another for their father's ultimate blessing. I'm half expecting to find out that Jack and Saywer are brothers LOL! I mean, there's this constant tussle going on between them. And Jack definitely has paternal approval issues, it's central to his character.

The act of Cain killing Abel was the first real wicked act committed on the earth. This happened when they were both grown men so just as the bible doesn't really say much about how Cain ended up with children, I'll say Abel had them by that point also. Since then man has been caught up in an endless loop. History repeats itself over and over until we either wipe ourselves out or God steps in and ends it. He does this because he finds a small group of people who prove the Devil wrong, and so they get rewarded.

I think it's significant that the older mixed couple are found to have aged moreso than everyone else. I think when they decided to be peaceable, they found paradise and are permitted to remain and live their days out. The rest, because they choose sides or take up violence as a solution, are caught up endlessly.

The "good guys" are modern-day Knights Templar. "What lies in the shadow of the giant"? The body of Christ. The strange magnetic rock thingy? That's either the rock of creation or close to the Ark of The Covenant / Holy Grail which the Knights found in Solomons Temple in Egypt and transported to the island. They adopted Egyptian and Arabic writings, idols and traditions and merged them with their beliefs based on the fact that they felt they had found out the secrets of Christ and creation and everything else, and fought to protect them. They would not want anyone to find the island, clearly. Does that mean Widmore is a freemason? I think both he and the old woman (sorry cant remember her name) could very well be.

I'll think of more in a bit...

OH MY: When Cain slew Abel, the ground became BARREN. :idea: Also, according to apocryphal writings Abel's body was buried in the Cave of Treasures which lay beneath Paradise and was also used by Solomon...Solomon..who's temple contained...

"Do you know how badly I want to kill you?" Satan insanely jealous of Jesus. Cain was jealous of Abel. Esau was jealous of Jacob. All of these characters felt that they had been cheated out of the main birthright of firstborn.
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Old 05-21-2009, 01:15 PM   #787
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The "good guys" are modern-day Knights Templar. "What lies in the shadow of the giant"? The body of Christ. The strange magnetic rock thingy? That's either the rock of creation or close to the Ark of The Covenant / Holy Grail which the Knights found in Solomons Temple in Egypt and transported to the island. They adopted Egyptian and Arabic writings, idols and traditions and merged them with their beliefs based on the fact that they felt they had found out the secrets of Christ and creation and everything else, and fought to protect them. They would not want anyone to find the island, clearly. Does that mean Widmore is a freemason? I think both he and the old woman (sorry cant remember her name) could very well be.
NICE!

But women cannot be freemasons, I'm sorry to say.

I totally glazed over all that Egyptian stuff in my theorizing. The Island must have not been an island at some point (i.e. - it moved), or something/one rebuilt the statue on there.

I do have a hard time believing that Widmore is a freemason, however, and that he's trying to protect the island. There's still no clear indication who put the hydrogen bomb there either. Unless the island is like land of the lost where things lost in time just end up there. I guess it's more likely that the bomb appeared there during the previous "chess match" between the pawns on the island. Around the same time Widmore and Hawking arrived on the island (and when Faraday told them to bury it.)
A Richard flashback episode would clear things up a lot. If he is proven to be a pawn from the Black Rock (ship's name, right?), promoted to leader and then given special privileges (everlasting youth?), we will know a whole lot more about Jacob. It's clear that he's not totally in the loop and can be misguided, so his pawnship is still in play.
Some have said that he looks Arabic so he might have been there as long as the statue has been, but I don't think that would be the case.

This has just again reminded me that I need to read the Bible. When will I learn?

What do you think about Benjamin's story in the Bible? Benjamin being Jacob's son, and "killing his mother" during childbirth. Significant, or just a parallel?
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Old 05-21-2009, 01:34 PM   #788
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I don't know if we have to follow the traditions totally. I mean women can't be Knights either but I think its just more about the roles than anything. I hadn't thought of the Ben / Biblical Ben angle.
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Old 05-21-2009, 01:44 PM   #789
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Also, I think it's significant that in the final episode Esau is portrayed as older (gray hair and more mature) and Jacob younger. Jealous evil firstborn theory again.
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Old 05-21-2009, 02:24 PM   #790
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So is it Jacob/Esau or God/Lucifer or both at the same time? Or is it just a simple representation of Good/Evil with religious undertones?
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Old 05-21-2009, 03:36 PM   #791
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I think the Jacob/Esau name thing is just a huge hint in the right direction. If it was Cain and Abel, it's way too obvious. Jacob and Esau are the physical manifestations of Christ and Satan. Satan knows good and evil, he understands that the human spirit has tremendous capacity for unselfish good and he fears that coming along and ruining his plan. He has wanted to kill Christ but Christ can't be killed by Satan. Somewhere in Revelations it talks about Satan dealing Christ a flesh wound type blow, but not being able to kill him. Similar to what happened to Jesus. Jacob doesn't die here, in fact if he isn't risen in the next episode it'll be because they are exploring some other subplot for a sec. Well thats my prediction anyhow. "You found your loophole" = Jesus moment of panic when he cries out while dying. Also, there is no resistance from Jacob, like he knows it is to be. Did you notice Ben basically said "Lord, Lord, did I not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ He used the exact phrase "in your name". Noone says that in real life about a human. They say "on your behalf" or something else. "in your name" is directly from that passage imo.
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Old 05-21-2009, 04:22 PM   #792
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I think the Jacob/Esau name thing is just a huge hint in the right direction. If it was Cain and Abel, it's way too obvious. Jacob and Esau are the physical manifestations of Christ and Satan. Satan knows good and evil, he understands that the human spirit has tremendous capacity for unselfish good and he fears that coming along and ruining his plan. He has wanted to kill Christ but Christ can't be killed by Satan. Somewhere in Revelations it talks about Satan dealing Christ a flesh wound type blow, but not being able to kill him. Similar to what happened to Jesus. Jacob doesn't die here, in fact if he isn't risen in the next episode it'll be because they are exploring some other subplot for a sec. Well thats my prediction anyhow. "You found your loophole" = Jesus moment of panic when he cries out while dying. Also, there is no resistance from Jacob, like he knows it is to be. Did you notice Ben basically said "Lord, Lord, did I not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ He used the exact phrase "in your name". Noone says that in real life about a human. They say "on your behalf" or something else. "in your name" is directly from that passage imo.
That does it. I have to read the Bible and rewatch the season finale this summer. I will have a Lost in Lost day.

BTW, that guy is not directly named Esau. He's just been dubbed that due to the similarities.
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:04 PM   #793
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There isn't much on television this summer, at least anything worth watching, in my humble opinion, so I thought I'd post this for possible discussion.

Comic-Con took place this past weekend and LOST showrunners Darlton (Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse) presented three videos that may provide a hint into the direction of the final season.

Here's an interesting take on the videos and what they might mean. Look at the July 23 entry:

 
http://www.eyemsick.blogspot.com

So, the videos suggest that Juliet's action in the final scene of Season 5 may mean either a new timeline where Oceanic 815 does not crash, or perhaps an alternate timeline. As the blog suggests, this may mean a return of deceased characters.
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:40 PM   #794
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Thanks for that Bmac. It was gratifying to read the May 19 entry and know that I wasn't the only person who saw the glaring biblical parallels. I think this guy has some very good ideas and the notes on the book Jacob was reading when Locke took his fall I was very interested in as well.

Ironically enough, we watched the final show again last night. My wife is starting to come around to my theory
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:45 PM   #795
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That does it. I have to read the Bible and rewatch the season finale this summer.
lol, I haven't done either, but this was a nice remember. A+, BoMac!
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