Inception

[lazarus]

But if it's his dream, it doesnt matter what happens to the top. He knows how its supposed to react, so whether it topples or not is irrelevant. Think about it. If Arthur has a dream and his die lands on the right side, it doesnt mean anything. He's supposed to know what side it lands on. The totem only tells you if you're in someone else's dream who doesnt know the specifics of your totem
And I mentioned the wedding ring thing a few posts back. I'll have to see it for myself, but my gf swears you cant see it in the final scene.
And the kids at the end were definitely the kids in his memories. I think it's the kids voices during the phone conversation that are played by the older actors.
I'm not saying that the theory is completely sound, but those pieces of evidence don't discount it

So let me get this straight: the film's all a dream, let in the earlier scene when he's on the phone, we have kids who "sound" like they're 11 years old, and yet at the end they're played by the same kids we saw before who look 9? That's BULLSHIT.

Also, if it's his dream and not someone else's that he's trapped in, how did he get there? Did he put himself under? There's nothing in the film that suggests he would even want to do this, and why would a writer/director make a choice like that arbitrarily? It doesn't add up, and it also makes his catharsis completely pointless.

As for being able to see his ring finger at the end, I think the point is that people have pretty much agreed the ring is there during all the dreams, and that Nolan goes out of his way to make sure you SEE IT in all of them. So whether or not you actually get a shot of the finger in that final scene, the absence of seeing a ring tells you all you need to know.

It's so clearly designed to be ambiguous and meant to provoke this very discussion that it's asinine to be so stubbornly defensive of one interpretation or the other.

No, it was a stylistic choice on Nolan's part to cut to black quicker so as to give the audience a little wink while still having the audio as a dead giveaway. While I'm sure he knew it would spark discussion, there's no doubt in my mind that he had a singular idea of what had happened and just thought it would be fun to make people get in a twist. "Designed to be ambiguous" implies that things could go one way or the other.

 

[corianderstem]

Also, if it's his dream and not someone else's that he's trapped in, how did he get there? Did he put himself under? There's nothing in the film that suggests he would even want to do this.

I agree with your comments about it not being a dream at the end, but wanted to call this out. Didn't he put himself under when the team was working on building the dreams?

He told Ariadne it was personal research, or something, and he was under on his own when she joined him and found out about Mal.

 

[lazarus]

Oh no, I wasn't suggesting he'd never go in, but yes, they were problems he was trying to solve, things he was trying to make amends for.

It was never implied that he desired to spend the rest of his existence in a phony reality of his creation, especially after what happened with Mal. He wanted to see his kids again in the flesh.

Which is why I thought the idea of Michael Caine performing an inception on him as a more credible theory. Unfortunately the wobbly top makes that invalid as well.

 

[Lancemc]

"Designed to be ambiguous" implies that things could go one way or the other.

Right.

 

[Jive Turkey]

So let me get this straight: the film's all a dream, let in the earlier scene when he's on the phone, we have kids who "sound" like they're 11 years old, and yet at the end they're played by the same kids we saw before who look 9? That's BULLSHIT.

Like I said, I need to see it a second time with all this in mind. From what I remember the first time around, the kids at the end look an awful lot like the kids in his memories. As for the kids on the phone, again, perhaps this part isnt a dream. Just because the end is, doesnt mean that the rest has to be. It's not something I was thinking about on the first viewing, so I'll save my thoughts for after the second time.

Also, if it's his dream and not someone else's that he's trapped in, how did he get there? Did he put himself under? There's nothing in the film that suggests he would even want to do this, and why would a writer/director make a choice like that arbitrarily? It doesn't add up, and it also makes his catharsis completely pointless.

As Cori pointed out, a huge portion of the plot has to do with him putting himself under. Everything do to with Mal has to do with them putting themselves under. Its a major plot point

As for being able to see his ring finger at the end, I think the point is that people have pretty much agreed the ring is there during all the dreams, and that Nolan goes out of his way to make sure you SEE IT in all of them. So whether or not you actually get a shot of the finger in that final scene, the absence of seeing a ring tells you all you need to know.

That seems like a bit of a cop out. Not showing the ring fits better with Lance's point of ambiguity than with Nolan just deciding not to show it because we're supposed to assume its not there

That's BULLSHIT.

And take it eas'

 

[corianderstem]

YOU'RE TEARING US APART, INCEPTION!!!!!

clf

 

[Jive Turkey]

YouTube - Meet the sloths

 

[lazarus]

Like I said, I need to see it a second time with all this in mind. From what I remember the first time around, the kids at the end look an awful lot like the kids in his memories. As for the kids on the phone, again, perhaps this part isnt a dream. Just because the end is, doesnt mean that the rest has to be. It's not something I was thinking about on the first viewing, so I'll save my thoughts for after the second time.

Well I've read multiple accounts of those who said if you look at the kids closely they're different actors. It's irrelevant to me, as we could also be seeing them in the way he's been subjectively replaying it in his head over and over. And if there were separate voice actors they probably would have been credited as such.

As Cori pointed out, a huge portion of the plot has to do with him putting himself under. Everything do to with Mal has to do with them putting themselves under. Its a major plot point

See my response to her post.

That seems like a bit of a cop out. Not showing the ring fits better with Lance's point of ambiguity than with Nolan just deciding not to show it because we're supposed to assume its not there

Well, he's definitely shown NOT wearing it on the plane, and IS shown wearing it on all four levels of the major dream sequence.

I think what Nolan was trying to do at the end was less a cop-out or Lance's supposed ambiguity, but more to do with making the viewer doubt, even in some small way, what they're seeing. But it's still just a playful nudge in keeping with the one of the film's themes.

The bottom line is the wobble. No other "clue" is as definitive, and I don't think your "he's in his own dream" notion holds any water, because there's simply nothing concrete to back it up.

 

[Jive Turkey]

The bottom line is the wobble. No other "clue" is as definitive, and I don't think your "he's in his own dream" notion holds any water, because there's simply nothing concrete to back it up.

How is there nothing to back it up though? He would be in his own dream and the rules of the movie would say that he would know how his totem is supposed to react.
I'm not arguing for arguments sake and I genuinely haven't decided how I think the movie ends, but why stifle the conversation? Isnt that what makes movies fun? You of all people should appreciate that. I dont think there's anything that can definitively say he's not still in a dream at the end.
And if you watched the sloth video and didnt smile, you have no soul

 

[Jive Turkey]

It was never implied that he desired to spend the rest of his existence in a phony reality of his creation, especially after what happened with Mal. He wanted to see his kids again in the flesh.

But, if it is a dream, he doesn't know its a dream. He did want to see his kids again, but maybe subconsciously he knows thats not possible and settles for a make believe existence in his mind. The gradual wobbling of the top could even represent his subconscious finally giving in and accepting it as reality. I dunno man. Its just speculation, but I think its fun and harmless. If there are subtle 'clues' throughout the movie, why not explore them a little? Its fun. weeeeeee!

 

[lazarus]

Right, but as I said, DiCaprio's whole raison d'etre was to get back to those kids. The real kids.

And I'm curious how if he refused to look at his children's faces at any point previous why he would suddenly do so now?

If you can show me at what point he enters this dream, and what the character motivation for it would be, then I'd be willing to listen. Other than that, as I said before, it's empty wankery just for the sake of being contrarian.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Other than that, as I said before, it's empty wankery just for the sake of being contrarian.

I say it's just fun and harmless. Hardly anything to get bent out of shape about. It wouldn't be the first movie that has alternate interpretations.

 

[anitram]

Now I remember why I generally don't bother posting in movie threads. If something could be worse than FYM...

 

[No spoken words]

JT is Canadian, Laz, not contrarian. Big difference.

 

[Jive Turkey]

I have a theory that Saito is actually Jesus

That rebel from Nazareth

 

[lazarus]

Also, had Dom walked into his house at the end not thinking anything was wrong, I'd be more inclined to think something was amiss. But the fact that he performs his test to be sure validates the suspicious feelings of the audience. It's not hidden from us. More importantly for him is that for the first time he is able to see (and touch) those kids, and the top becomes secondary. The children are HIS real proof, the top is ours.

 

[OrARoundabout]

also, had dom walked into his house at the end not thinking anything was wrong, i'd be more inclined to think something was amiss. But the fact that he performs his test to be sure validates the suspicious feelings of the audience. It's not hidden from us. More importantly for him is that for the first time he is able to see (and touch) those kids, and the top becomes secondary. The children are his real proof, the top is ours.

this

 

[PhilsFan]

I have a theory that Saito is actually Jesus

That rebel from Nazareth

Well played.

 

[PhilsFan]

Also, had Dom walked into his house at the end not thinking anything was wrong, I'd be more inclined to think something was amiss. But the fact that he performs his test to be sure validates the suspicious feelings of the audience. It's not hidden from us. More importantly for him is that for the first time he is able to see (and touch) those kids, and the top becomes secondary. The children are HIS real proof, the top is ours.

I tend to agree with this.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Also, had Dom walked into his house at the end not thinking anything was wrong, I'd be more inclined to think something was amiss. But the fact that he performs his test to be sure validates the suspicious feelings of the audience. It's not hidden from us. More importantly for him is that for the first time he is able to see (and touch) those kids, and the top becomes secondary. The children are HIS real proof, the top is ours.

And I dont think this is any less relevant than anything I've posted. Like I said, I dont know.

 

[monkeyskin]

I either didn't pick up on or dismissed the wedding ring shots as I don't remember those at all. But until I see the film again I'm leaning towards the 'the ending is a dream' camp. Not the whole film mind, just the ending.

JT sums up my reasons, as the spinning top as proof is out if it's his own dream and his daughter sounded a few years older on the phone than she looked at the end. Also, DiCap goes on about how it's dangerous to build a dreamscape from memories as that's when you lose the ability to discern between dreams and reality. His house and children, just the way he left them, is definitely a memory and allowing himself to see his kid's faces (which he'd seen hundreds of times before he left) just shows that he didn't THINK he was in a dream.

Yes, I heard the top wobble too, but after one viewing I'm putting other evidence before it.

But as for the rest of the film, I enjoyed it. Have to say I was hoping, even expecting, something weirder, but I was definitely not disappointed. Ever since Batman Begins Nolan has proved that he can take a high concept summer blockbuster and inject it with some serious undertones, even if they eventually play second fiddle to the basic genre plot and central character arc. It's the best kind of compromise, being extravegant but not dumb, but if you want something more cerebral about dreams go see something like Paprika.

I do have some nitpicks though:
1. Why were Dom and Mal young when the train ran over them at the end of their stay in limbo, but we saw flashes of them grow old together, like Saito grew old?
2. What was the big fucking deal about projections harming the architect (as seen in the opening and many an evil glare to Juno) if they were just going to sweep it aside in Fischer's mind? Exposition for the sake of exposition, given how often they mentioned it.
3. The snowy scenes were dull.
4. JGL was dull (this annoyed me more than anything else).
5. JGL not finding out beforehand that Fischer had received extraction training is lazy writing, again why even bother include it? They could have just a easily been prepared but still ambushed.

But I really liked it. It's not the head fuck masterpiece I've heard it described as, but it was pretty damn good.

 

[lazarus]

1. Subjective reality, which is another explanation for why the children may have appeared to not grow old (in Dom's eyes).

As for the wobble, hey it's only the last fucking thing in the film, no reason to put any kind of primary importance on it.

If he truly wanted it to be ambiguous, or imply it was a dream, he could have, you know, left the wobble out. Or cut a lot earlier, like right when he spun the top.

 

[LMP]

A 'production meeting' with the lady friend? Eh eh?

Nice one. I wish it was the context you were implying, scumbag.

It is wrong. The "evidence" to suggest it is fan wankery and totally circumstantial. On the other hand, you have the FACT that the top audibly wobbles at the end, the FACT that he is wearing a ring in every dream sequence but no ring is seen at the end, and the FACT that the cast lists four actors who play the children at TWO DIFFERENT FUCKING AGES, 9 and 11.

Anyone who thinks it's a dream is either stubborn or delusional.

Can I be both?

But if it's his dream, it doesnt matter what happens to the top. He knows how its supposed to react, so whether it topples or not is irrelevant. Think about it. If Arthur has a dream and his die lands on the right side, it doesnt mean anything. He's supposed to know what side it lands on. The totem only tells you if you're in someone else's dream who doesnt know the specifics of your totem
And I mentioned the wedding ring thing a few posts back. I'll have to see it for myself, but my gf swears you cant see it in the final scene.
And the kids at the end were definitely the kids in his memories. I think it's the kids voices during the phone conversation that are played by the older actors.
I'm not saying that the theory is completely sound, but those pieces of evidence don't discount it

Oh no, I wasn't suggesting he'd never go in, but yes, they were problems he was trying to solve, things he was trying to make amends for.

It was never implied that he desired to spend the rest of his existence in a phony reality of his creation, especially after what happened with Mal. He wanted to see his kids again in the flesh.

Which is why I thought the idea of Michael Caine performing an inception on him as a more credible theory. Unfortunately the wobbly top makes that invalid as well.

Also, had Dom walked into his house at the end not thinking anything was wrong, I'd be more inclined to think something was amiss. But the fact that he performs his test to be sure validates the suspicious feelings of the audience. It's not hidden from us. More importantly for him is that for the first time he is able to see (and touch) those kids, and the top becomes secondary. The children are HIS real proof, the top is ours.

One thing that could be fairly telling re: the totem argument is that Arthur's bit with Ariadne makes it clear that the subject should have control/singular knowledge of their own totem and how it works. Didn't Mal leave her totem for Cobb to use? I took that as her leaving it for him to decide the circumstances of his own reality, since the film explicitly advocates that relative reality exists.

Also, in support of the "whole thing being a dream" argument, what breaks up the initial attack on Fischer's first level? A train and a set of goons, both of which are present in Cobb's subconscious (Mombasa/guys he feels are out to get him, and the train that ran the fuck over his and his lady's heads). Everyone else not knowing what the hell happened (Arthur and Eames both not knowing in their research) and Ariadne's concern that Cobb's manifestations would make their way into "Fischer's mind" both tie into this as well. Hell, it could support the Caine/Tangerine Inception theory. Mal's arguments about Cobb being the one who's in the fantasy are valid based on him not being able to trust dreams founded upon memories and that the audience is obviously led to side with Cobb on that issue. Again, it's comparable to Total Recall and Quaid's brushes with anyone trying to dictate his reality.

As far as the end sequence goes, while the wobble is fairly clear and the cut to black is an obvious bit of trickery, but what's ultimately telling is that Cobb obviously doesn't care if the top's still spinning or not, and neither should be. If it ain't his own totem, then who's to say that it won't be manipulated with his own perception of reality?

I didn't know that two sets of actors were listed for the kids, that is fairly telling. If that's the case, then the young kids from the memories being present in the end is also pretty telling that he's stuck in limbo, right? Also, we deliberately didn't see his or Saito's kick back, though it was implied by the gun being at the table.

Ultimately, the top falling or not doesn't matter, only that Cobb's gotten to the point where that line between reality and fiction has been destructed entirely.

Fun stuff!

YOU'RE TEARING US APART, INCEPTION!!!!!

clf

 

[lazarus]

I didn't know that two sets of actors were listed for the kids, that is fairly telling. If that's the case, then the young kids from the memories being present in the end is also pretty telling that he's stuck in limbo, right?

But they're not the same kids, that's the point. They are in the same setting, same photography, nearly the same costumes as in Dom's recollections, but they're different.

When else would those other actors have appeared?

 

[LMP]

Set we see often = from-behind dream kids, voice on the phone = older kids?

 

[lazarus]

Also, while we didn't technically see Dom and Saito kill themselves to leave Limbo, we DO see that Dom's not wearing his ring when they're back on the plane.

Unless people are under the foolish notion that the wedding ring thing is some kind of continuity coincidence, then you have to explain how we go from a REAL plane and airport sequence to a dream scene at his house. Which wouldn't be necessary, because if the second plane scene is real, he would be able to see his kids anyway.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Tuba Synth question (surely to fuck we can all agree on Tuba Synth): Since the Inception theme is essentially a slowed down version of Non, Je Ne Regrette RIen, is there a sped up Tuba Synth sound in the original song?

 

[lazarus]

Set we see often = from-behind dream kids, voice on the phone = older kids?

A stretch. And they would likely have been credited as "voice of" as off-camera people usually are.

Do 9 and 11 year olds sound that different on the phone for that to be necessary.

The problem with the Dream Theorists is that they can't seem to agree on how much of the film is a dream, and where the cut-off is.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Dream Theorists

Dream Conspiracists is the preferred term

 

[LMP]

A stretch. And they would likely have been credited as "voice of" as off-camera people usually are.

Do 9 and 11 year olds sound that different on the phone for that to be necessary.

The problem with the Dream Theorists is that they can't seem to agree on how much of the film is a dream, and where the cut-off is.

I need to see it again to be more clear on where I stand. Right now, the strongest impressions lean towards most of what occurs, if not everything, to be functioning within DiCap's head. The revelations and emotional stakes are still articulated and executed the same as if it were a linear narrative, but it strengthens the other characterizations and ambiguous elements that I spoke of earlier.

The fact that the discussion can be sparked and that we have coherent enough points to present is great in and of itself, regardless of how fervently you're arguing your side. I enjoy the film just the same.