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Old 07-26-2010, 09:36 PM   #361
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But if it's his dream, it doesnt matter what happens to the top. He knows how its supposed to react, so whether it topples or not is irrelevant. Think about it. If Arthur has a dream and his die lands on the right side, it doesnt mean anything. He's supposed to know what side it lands on. The totem only tells you if you're in someone else's dream who doesnt know the specifics of your totem
And I mentioned the wedding ring thing a few posts back. I'll have to see it for myself, but my gf swears you cant see it in the final scene.
And the kids at the end were definitely the kids in his memories. I think it's the kids voices during the phone conversation that are played by the older actors.
I'm not saying that the theory is completely sound, but those pieces of evidence don't discount it
So let me get this straight: the film's all a dream, let in the earlier scene when he's on the phone, we have kids who "sound" like they're 11 years old, and yet at the end they're played by the same kids we saw before who look 9? That's BULLSHIT.

Also, if it's his dream and not someone else's that he's trapped in, how did he get there? Did he put himself under? There's nothing in the film that suggests he would even want to do this, and why would a writer/director make a choice like that arbitrarily? It doesn't add up, and it also makes his catharsis completely pointless.

As for being able to see his ring finger at the end, I think the point is that people have pretty much agreed the ring is there during all the dreams, and that Nolan goes out of his way to make sure you SEE IT in all of them. So whether or not you actually get a shot of the finger in that final scene, the absence of seeing a ring tells you all you need to know.

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It's so clearly designed to be ambiguous and meant to provoke this very discussion that it's asinine to be so stubbornly defensive of one interpretation or the other.
No, it was a stylistic choice on Nolan's part to cut to black quicker so as to give the audience a little wink while still having the audio as a dead giveaway. While I'm sure he knew it would spark discussion, there's no doubt in my mind that he had a singular idea of what had happened and just thought it would be fun to make people get in a twist. "Designed to be ambiguous" implies that things could go one way or the other.
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Old 07-26-2010, 09:38 PM   #362
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Also, if it's his dream and not someone else's that he's trapped in, how did he get there? Did he put himself under? There's nothing in the film that suggests he would even want to do this.
I agree with your comments about it not being a dream at the end, but wanted to call this out. Didn't he put himself under when the team was working on building the dreams?

He told Ariadne it was personal research, or something, and he was under on his own when she joined him and found out about Mal.
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Old 07-26-2010, 09:43 PM   #363
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Oh no, I wasn't suggesting he'd never go in, but yes, they were problems he was trying to solve, things he was trying to make amends for.

It was never implied that he desired to spend the rest of his existence in a phony reality of his creation, especially after what happened with Mal. He wanted to see his kids again in the flesh.

Which is why I thought the idea of Michael Caine performing an inception on him as a more credible theory. Unfortunately the wobbly top makes that invalid as well.
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Old 07-26-2010, 09:48 PM   #364
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"Designed to be ambiguous" implies that things could go one way or the other.
Right.
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Old 07-26-2010, 09:49 PM   #365
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So let me get this straight: the film's all a dream, let in the earlier scene when he's on the phone, we have kids who "sound" like they're 11 years old, and yet at the end they're played by the same kids we saw before who look 9? That's BULLSHIT.
Like I said, I need to see it a second time with all this in mind. From what I remember the first time around, the kids at the end look an awful lot like the kids in his memories. As for the kids on the phone, again, perhaps this part isnt a dream. Just because the end is, doesnt mean that the rest has to be. It's not something I was thinking about on the first viewing, so I'll save my thoughts for after the second time.

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Also, if it's his dream and not someone else's that he's trapped in, how did he get there? Did he put himself under? There's nothing in the film that suggests he would even want to do this, and why would a writer/director make a choice like that arbitrarily? It doesn't add up, and it also makes his catharsis completely pointless.
As Cori pointed out, a huge portion of the plot has to do with him putting himself under. Everything do to with Mal has to do with them putting themselves under. Its a major plot point

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As for being able to see his ring finger at the end, I think the point is that people have pretty much agreed the ring is there during all the dreams, and that Nolan goes out of his way to make sure you SEE IT in all of them. So whether or not you actually get a shot of the finger in that final scene, the absence of seeing a ring tells you all you need to know.

That seems like a bit of a cop out. Not showing the ring fits better with Lance's point of ambiguity than with Nolan just deciding not to show it because we're supposed to assume its not there

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That's BULLSHIT.
And take it eas'
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Old 07-26-2010, 09:52 PM   #366
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YOU'RE TEARING US APART, INCEPTION!!!!!

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Old 07-26-2010, 09:58 PM   #367
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YouTube - Meet the sloths
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:02 PM   #368
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Like I said, I need to see it a second time with all this in mind. From what I remember the first time around, the kids at the end look an awful lot like the kids in his memories. As for the kids on the phone, again, perhaps this part isnt a dream. Just because the end is, doesnt mean that the rest has to be. It's not something I was thinking about on the first viewing, so I'll save my thoughts for after the second time.
Well I've read multiple accounts of those who said if you look at the kids closely they're different actors. It's irrelevant to me, as we could also be seeing them in the way he's been subjectively replaying it in his head over and over. And if there were separate voice actors they probably would have been credited as such.

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As Cori pointed out, a huge portion of the plot has to do with him putting himself under. Everything do to with Mal has to do with them putting themselves under. Its a major plot point
See my response to her post.

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That seems like a bit of a cop out. Not showing the ring fits better with Lance's point of ambiguity than with Nolan just deciding not to show it because we're supposed to assume its not there
Well, he's definitely shown NOT wearing it on the plane, and IS shown wearing it on all four levels of the major dream sequence.

I think what Nolan was trying to do at the end was less a cop-out or Lance's supposed ambiguity, but more to do with making the viewer doubt, even in some small way, what they're seeing. But it's still just a playful nudge in keeping with the one of the film's themes.

The bottom line is the wobble. No other "clue" is as definitive, and I don't think your "he's in his own dream" notion holds any water, because there's simply nothing concrete to back it up.
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:08 PM   #369
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The bottom line is the wobble. No other "clue" is as definitive, and I don't think your "he's in his own dream" notion holds any water, because there's simply nothing concrete to back it up.
How is there nothing to back it up though? He would be in his own dream and the rules of the movie would say that he would know how his totem is supposed to react.
I'm not arguing for arguments sake and I genuinely haven't decided how I think the movie ends, but why stifle the conversation? Isnt that what makes movies fun? You of all people should appreciate that. I dont think there's anything that can definitively say he's not still in a dream at the end.
And if you watched the sloth video and didnt smile, you have no soul
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:16 PM   #370
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It was never implied that he desired to spend the rest of his existence in a phony reality of his creation, especially after what happened with Mal. He wanted to see his kids again in the flesh.
But, if it is a dream, he doesn't know its a dream. He did want to see his kids again, but maybe subconsciously he knows thats not possible and settles for a make believe existence in his mind. The gradual wobbling of the top could even represent his subconscious finally giving in and accepting it as reality. I dunno man. Its just speculation, but I think its fun and harmless. If there are subtle 'clues' throughout the movie, why not explore them a little? Its fun. weeeeeee!
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:17 PM   #371
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Right, but as I said, DiCaprio's whole raison d'etre was to get back to those kids. The real kids.

And I'm curious how if he refused to look at his children's faces at any point previous why he would suddenly do so now?

If you can show me at what point he enters this dream, and what the character motivation for it would be, then I'd be willing to listen. Other than that, as I said before, it's empty wankery just for the sake of being contrarian.
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:20 PM   #372
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Other than that, as I said before, it's empty wankery just for the sake of being contrarian.
I say it's just fun and harmless. Hardly anything to get bent out of shape about. It wouldn't be the first movie that has alternate interpretations.
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:21 PM   #373
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Now I remember why I generally don't bother posting in movie threads. If something could be worse than FYM...
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:22 PM   #374
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JT is Canadian, Laz, not contrarian. Big difference.
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Old 07-26-2010, 10:24 PM   #375
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I have a theory that Saito is actually Jesus

That rebel from Nazareth
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