Game of Thrones, continued

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I would argue that a satisfying conclusion to the White Walker/Night King storyline is impossible. The whole thing was invented as a way to justify interest in Jon being at the Wall, and silent villains with essentially no actual motivations could not possibly be compelling. I'm glad they got on with it and got to something real with these last three episodes, a confrontation between characters we actually can understand.



Seems quite possible to me. It’s prophetic. It’s all Sam’s fault. He stole a baby that they typically consumed and then killed a white walker, which the white walkers perceived as an existential threat.

Basically, their superstition and selfishness caused it all.
 
The NK story in the books is much more interesting than in the show, though, so I'm not sure the above applies.

https://www.theringer.com/game-of-t...king-dragonfire-targaryen-valyrian-steel-bran'

As the story goes, back in the Age of Heroes, not long after the Wall was raised by Bran the Builder, a certain brother of the Watch rose to become the order’s 13th Lord Commander. He might have been a Stark or a Bolton or even a Skagosi from the cannibal island of Skagos. In those days, the Watch was headquartered at the Nightfort, the largest of the Watch’s strongholds, and the castles along the Wall were fully manned. The tales agree that one day, while standing guard atop the Wall, the Lord Commander glimpsed a woman—with skin “white as the moon” and eyes a ghostly blue—in the woods on the northern side. Was she a sorceress? Some kind of White Walker? Or, like Benjen Stark, something in between? We don’t know. But the Lord Commander was enchanted … and apparently aroused. He left his post, crossed to the far side of the Wall, found her, and made love to her.

The Lord Commander returned to the Nightfort with his pale bride. He declared himself the Night’s King and the pale woman his queen. His former Night’s Watch brothers fell under their dark spell. Soon the Night’s King and his white queen had carved out an evil kingdom for themselves there in the shadow of the Wall with the Nightfort as its foul capital. For 13 years they reigned.

It took an alliance between Brandon “The Breaker” Stark the King in the North and Joramun the (first?) wildling King-Beyond-the-Wall to bring down the Night’s King and his queen. In the aftermath, when it was discovered that the Night’s King had been making sacrifices to the White Walkers, all of the Watch’s records pertaining to his time as the 13th Lord Commander were purged and, in a Voldemortian move, even the mention of his name was forbidden. This, in my opinion, lends credence to the idea that the Night’s King, at least in the books, was a Stark. House Stark and House Bolton, even then, shared a long and bloody history of mutual enmity. If the Night’s King was a Bolton, publicizing that fact would be useful to the Stark kings in the North. If he was a Stark … well, that would need to be covered up. Who else would have the power and influence to do that but the Starks of Winterfell?

The article also contains some good stuff re. the military tactics:

His [Jon's] plan for the Battle of Winterfell placed Ghost on the front lines when he’d be much better used defending Bran in the godswood. His plan also resulted in Dothraki genocide when he sent all—again, all—the Dothraki cavalry charging into pitch darkness against an enemy that would not break under cavalry charge, and completely ignored their utility as mounted archers. He built a fire trench (with a collapsible bridge) BEHIND his army, which cut off their route of retreat. He placed his siege weapons out in the open instead of inside the castle and fired them only once. Finally, he yelled at a dragon when it wouldn’t stop breathing blue fire at him.
 
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One more: https://slate.com/culture/2019/04/game-of-thrones-battle-night-king-huh.html

But the Night King. Man. For years it has been implied that his presence looming over Game of Thrones was about so much more than court intrigue: that we were going to be made to feel and understand the depths of that original trauma from all those thousands of years ago when the Children of the Forest drove a dagger into the heart of a First Man—to fight off the First Men who were cutting down their sacred trees. Their decision to create a superweapon, the way it backfired, the tragic story of how that metastasized into a principle of natural revenge that would wipe out whole landscapes and delete humanity, or at least its memory—all this cast into relief just how petty and small the show’s plots over who’s in charge had always been. The Night King didn’t seem like a traditional villain or even a Lucifer figure, someone mad he didn’t get the power he wanted and fell. He seemed like an argument about history—long history, epic history, natural history—mattering. In combining nature’s rage and human vengefulness, he seemed like an extraordinary hybrid principle equipped to better speak to our own times, when climate change seems poised to make our own catchphrase “Summer Is Coming.” For years, he seemed like a symbol the present could actually use, a shorthand for our need to transcend political infighting in the name of uniting around something bigger, more urgent.

This wasn’t a wacky reading. G.R.R. Martin talked about the comparison himself last year. But good news! The solution to climate change is to stab it in the torso.

I can’t quite believe the ending to that story was this dumb. The conspiracy theorist in me insists that there must be a twist coming. But in lieu of any deeper explanation of what this struggle has been over—or any real confrontation between Bran and the Night King, the two poles around which this whole mess has been oscillating—we got that smirk. Nothing is more petty or annoyingly human than a smirk. Smirks are the purview of Bargain Bad Guys, not civilization-ending forces. Once the Night King shattered, his high-stakes history, which viewers of this series have been dying to finally learn, was erased. Maybe the Night King won after all.
 
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Complaints notwithstanding, there were some truly gorgeous shots in this episode (especially once they are brightened):

bqpfpiq7y7v21.jpg


0v5agibp0ev21.jpg
 
We watched it illegally, so the quality was really bad anyway, but I didn't think it was quite as bad as people were saying.

Is there a chance that Martin when he finally gets off his arse and writes the fucking books, will write a different thing to the show?
 
I’d say it’s highly likely that certain people change since there are more characters in the book. But probably events will be similar, although probably not quite as rushed.

Also, where is that explanation of the Night King from, gump? I don’t remember that from the books. Is it from one of the supplemental books? To be fair, it’s been like seven years now since I finished A Dance With Dragons, and I haven’t re-read anything.
 
I would argue that a satisfying conclusion to the White Walker/Night King storyline is impossible. The whole thing was invented as a way to justify interest in Jon being at the Wall, and silent villains with essentially no actual motivations could not possibly be compelling. I'm glad they got on with it and got to something real with these last three episodes, a confrontation between characters we actually can understand.

Even as a book fan, I agree with you. I care a lot less about the beyond the wall stuff. But I hope it's better in the books if they ever are completed.

Complaints notwithstanding, there were some truly gorgeous shots in this episode (especially once they are brightened):

bqpfpiq7y7v21.jpg


0v5agibp0ev21.jpg

Wish I could've seen that. Absolutely gorgeous.

We watched it illegally, so the quality was really bad anyway, but I didn't think it was quite as bad as people were saying.

It. Was.
 
I thought it was pretty fucking amazing to be honest.

Obviously I look forward to seeing it on Blu-Ray in all its uncompressed glory but the darkness didn't bother me that much, some scenes I agree were hard to follow but especially for all the battle scenes I appreciated the darkness because it added to the sense of chaos and discomfort I "think" they were trying to convey.
 
I was pretty meh about the episode, which makes me sad. There was a lot of potential here, but the show has no balls anymore and refuses to kill off any of the characters people watching in bars know the names of, so the stakes felt a lot lower than they should have. Very little character development took place with the survivors and the big character moments, as has been the case since D&D took complete control of the narrative, were largely just goofy fan fiction that didn't resonate with who the characters were established to be. The fan favorites save the day at the very last possible second, of course.

On a technical level, there was a lot to like, but the dim lighting made it unwatchable at times and did a disservice to some great photography. Occasionally shit camerawork made it difficult to see what was going on, particularly during the dragon fight. I honestly couldn't tell you what was happening to whom because the camera was zoomed in so tightly. There was only one dragon left alive at the end, right?

The most tense moment of the whole thing was the dead coming to life in the crypt. It looked like something out of a high budget zombie flick, but I enjoyed it anyway. Of course, Tyrion and Sansa came out of it totally fine. Why wouldn't they at this point? But it was still fun. I also liked that this episode tore down Dany's prospects for taking the throne. That seems so much less inevitable now.

Oh, and the Dothrakis are gone now. A race of people and thoroughly developed storyline gone in one middling episode.

But yeah, it was whatever. Episodes like Blackwater were so intense back in the day because, at one point, the show was terrific at developing characters and doing away with them. Anything was possible. The Long Night felt like it was written by a fan, especially the ending with Arya.

And no, I'm not hating just to hate. I praised last week's episode, but this one felt like hollow spectacle to me, unlike some of the earlier battles.
 
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I definitely can see what you’re saying there.
All the Dothraki dead. All the unsullied dead. All of Winterfell dead. Oh but all the main characters died but like one and we lost a handful of B characters. Still. I think it was done well and better than most shows coming to an end.
 
I don't understand saying the show has "no balls" and the complaint about not killing off major characters when they literally killed Jorah and Theon who have been MAJOR characters from jump street. Along with like four other pretty big characters who have been a part of the show a long time (Mel, Edd, Beric, the Night King himself) and one other very popular character (who is an actual child) in a very brutal way.

Fuck outta here on that end.

I will say, though, that the lighting and camerawork was fucking awful in a number of sequences so I agree in that respect. I honestly think they fucked up and if they had to do it over again they would certainly correct some of the lighting issues. Millions and millions of people complained.

Arya's kill was still so awesome, though. A truly iconic TV moment. That will live on as one of the indelible moments in modern TV history.
 
Arya should be dead. I swear I heard the Night King crush her neck when she lunged toward him and got caught. I'm not surprised that she survived, but I don't know why she did. It's ridiculous that Tyrion and Sansa survived in a crypt full of white walkers without significant means to defend themselves. They even set up a jump scare with Tyrion and Sansa waiting for their demise, only to leave us hanging. I thought Brienne died in the first few minutes but walked away mostly unscathed. There's been a running plot throughout this season concerning Jamie's acceptance of his waning abilities as a warrior and he walked away from the battle no worse for wear.

It's not even that the show doesn't have balls, it's that it sets up very logical opportunities to take risks and won't follow through on them because D&D doesn't have the same approach to character as George Martin does.
 
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Well, I think it’s fair that Sam lives if only because he caused a character to die. I think it’s fair that Tyrion and Sansa survived in the crypt.

The night king dying absolutely does not count as a character death. He’s neither a hero nor an antihero. His death was anticipated.

I forgot Jorah died. So you had two main characters.

All the B characters that die... in a normal episode, shocking. In this episode? C’mon, they avoided the creme of the crop. A Stark should’ve could’ve killed.

I just wasn’t pleased that the only people left standing were main characters.
 
Lmao Jorah's death was so fucking depressing because Dany basically used him as a human shield. He died as he lived.
 
Lmao Jorah's death was so fucking depressing because Dany basically used him as a human shield. He died as he lived.



Yeah well, karma is a bitch and Sam has inadvertently caused the deaths of many characters and probably hundreds of extras, so color me shocked when we learn that she’s got the grayscale.
 
Arya should be dead. I swear I heard the Night King crush her neck when she lunged toward him and got caught. I'm not surprised that she survived, but I don't know why she did. It's ridiculous that Sam, Tyrion and Sansa survived in a crypt full of white walkers without significant means to defend themselves. They even set up a jump scare with Tyrion and Sansa waiting for their demise, only to leave us hanging. I thought Brienne died in the first few minutes but walked away mostly unscathed. There's been a running plot throughout this season concerning Jamie's acceptance of his waning abilities as a warrior and he walked away from the battle no worse for wear.

It's not even that the show doesn't have balls, it's that it sets up very logical opportunities to take risks and won't follow through on them because D&D doesn't have the same approach to character as George Martin does.
Stop putting your shit in spoiler tags, dude. Everybody in the world has seen the episode. And if they haven't and they still somehow wander into this thread then fuck them.

"It's ridiculous that Sam, Tyrion, and Sansa survived in a crypt..."

Sam wasn't in the fucking crypt. How can you bitch so much when you don't even know what the hell was happening?
 
Stop putting your shit in spoiler tags, dude. Everybody in the world has seen the episode. And if they haven't and they still somehow wander into this thread then fuck them.

"It's ridiculous that Sam, Tyrion, and Sansa survived in a crypt..."

Sam wasn't in the fucking crypt. How can you bitch so much when you don't even know what the hell was happening?
Yeah, I stopped a couple posts ago because I noticed how pointless it was. I default to being polite about spoilers.

Fair enough, I made a mistake. Any comment on the rest of my points?
 
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Yeah, I stopped a couple posts ago because I noticed how pointless it was. I default to being polite about spoilers most of the time.

Everyone's calling it a crypt. What's the correct nomenclature?
Sam was never in the crypt. He was out fighting with everyone else. Literally the first shot of the episode is someone telling Sam to get his shit together and get ready to fight.

Anyway, not that big a deal. I just find the "not enough big deaths" card to be total bullshit.

You *wanted* Arya or Sansa or Tyrion to die? Then truly your heart is as cold as the Night King's.
 
Sam was never in the crypt. He was out fighting with everyone else. Literally the first shot of the episode is someone telling Sam to get his shit together and get ready to fight.

Anyway, not that big a deal. I just find the "not enough big deaths" card to be total bullshit.

You *wanted* Arya or Sansa or Tyrion to die? Then truly your heart is as cold as the Night King's.
Right. Sam was initially asked if he wanted to stay in the crypt in the previous episode but declined because, frankly, it's the least he could do. Forgot about that when I wrote the post.

I want what's best dramatically for the show. Randomly killing characters isn't the key to that, nor is keeping the favorites around because fans like them. It's somewhere in the middle. What I didn't like is that I felt they were being spared in ways that weren't realistic for the GoT universe.

I hope all of the survivors have a great final three episodes.
 
Right. Sam was initially asked if he wanted to stay in the crypt in the previous episode but declined because, frankly, it's the least he could do. Forgot about that when I wrote the post.

I want what's best dramatically for the show. Randomly killing characters isn't the key to that, nor is keeping the favorites around because fans like them. It's somewhere in the middle. What I didn't like is that I felt they were being spared in ways that weren't realistic for the GoT universe.

I hope all of the survivors have a great final three episodes.
It's the most popular show in the world with like 30 main characters. I don't think they're "keeping the favorites around because fans like them." They killed a bunch of favorites in this episode. Because guess what? Every character is a favorite! Jorah and Theon are countless people's favorites! And they killed the fuck outta them! Our very own Lazarus has stated many times that Jorah is his favorite character. I have a coworker who absolutely loves Theon.

As for the characters being spared in ways that aren't realistic for the GOT universe...I can see that for Brienne and maybe a couple others. Maybe Brienne should've died. I'll concede that one. But I won't buy that it was unrealistic for Arya to survive. She's been training the entire series to be a master assassin. And she master assassinated the SHIT out of the Night King. Stick 'em with the pointy end!
 
LeMel you got me riled up bro. This show is fun to talk about. What else should we talk about? How hot is Gilly? She's super hot.
 
It's the most popular show in the world with like 30 main characters. I don't think they're "keeping the favorites around because fans like them." They killed a bunch of favorites in this episode. Because guess what? Every character is a favorite! Jorah and Theon are countless people's favorites! And they killed the fuck outta them! Our very own Lazarus has stated many times that Jorah is his favorite character. I have a coworker who absolutely loves Theon.

As for the characters being spared in ways that aren't realistic for the GOT universe...I can see that for Brienne and maybe a couple others. Maybe Brienne should've died. I'll concede that one. But I won't buy that it was unrealistic for Arya to survive. She's been training the entire series to be a master assassin. And she master assassinated the SHIT out of the Night King. Stick 'em with the pointy end!
Watching the past few seasons of the show, D&D has been increasingly protective of the show's core characters: the Starks, the Lannisters, Dany, Sam, etc. The effect of that is, when we got to this battle, I assumed that most of them would live and that's what happened. Maybe it's unfair that I judge the show by its ability to surprise me. I concede that surprise isn't what makes a show worth watching. But I do miss it a little bit. I'd also miss most members of the main cast if they were gone. So that's the challenge they are running into now.

For what it's worth, there are many writers who agree with you completely, including one I have a lot of respect for and have been reading for years:

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/...pisode-3-battle-of-winterfell-not-that-deadly

My arguments are more specific than just wanting bloodshed, but I get his point.

Of the deaths we did see, believe me, I will be missing Jorah. He's always been among my favorites. He's Ser Friendzone. A legend. Who the fuck doesn't feel something for Jorah? And his death was well done, fitting for his character if terribly disappointing. He deserved better, but GoT isn't about fairness.

Theon's death made me feel gross because it was so...inconsequential. We're not meant to understand that he served as a distraction, right? He just charged and died. That sucks. Fitting, I guess. He got kicked in the nuts 5000 times last season but was no match for the Night King.
 
dude, this is the show that did the Red Wedding.

you really can't argue that its ruthless edge has disappeared.

and until Arya stabbed night man (also, how did she get passed the hundreds and hundreds of white walkers that were all around him?!?!!) it looked like everyone was going to die. so the fact that so many people survived, and nearly all those who did are major characters, sucks.
 
LeMel you got me riled up bro. This show is fun to talk about. What else should we talk about? How hot is Gilly? She's super hot.
Gilly thicc as hell lately and Emilia Clarke looking like a snack in that candlelight they've been using. Episode 2 I was like damn.
 
Yeah well, karma is a bitch and Sam has inadvertently caused the deaths of many characters and probably hundreds of extras, so color me shocked when we learn that she’s got the grayscale.

Can you explain this one? How has Sam inadvertedly caused the deaths of many characters? I might've missed something (or just as likely, forgot something of the past 70 episodes).
 
Can you explain this one? How has Sam inadvertedly caused the deaths of many characters? I might've missed something (or just as likely, forgot something of the past 70 episodes).

LN7's explanation would be more concise, but I'm sure he's referring to this:

https://www.theringer.com/tv/2019/4...nes-season-8-consequences-jon-sam-arya-cersei

And this:

https://www.scoopwhoop.com/got-theory-sam-tarly-reason-for-night-king-attack/

Basically, Sam's done a lot of foolhardy things involving the white walkers and the consequences for them were severe.
 
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lol this article perfectly encapsulates everything about the past couple of pages:

https://www.slashfilm.com/game-of-thrones-the-long-night-review/

Perhaps the most surprising element of “The Long Night” is how many people*didn’t*die. Sure, Jon and Dany have enough plot armor to deflect Valyrian steel, but seemingly expendable characters like Brienne, Tormund, Podrick, Gendry, Grey Worm, the Hound, Samwell, and more stayed alive, even under increasingly improbable circumstances. This leads to a tale of two conflicting reactions.
Reaction Number One:*Game of Thrones realized that in an episode that featured great swaths of the North being wiped from existence, we should be allowed some survivors we love and cherish to help us through the back half of the season. All of these characters are “fan favorites,” with many of them seemingly having increased roles in recent years because the audience has responded to them with such enthusiasm. Seriously, Tormund doesn’t*actually*add anything to the plot these days, but god damn it, it sure is good to see him hanging around. I’m happy that*Game of Thrones*let these folks live. I’m happy to spend more time with characters who are allowed to simply exist in this world. I’m glad people I love, albeit fictional people, live on.

Reaction Number Two:*Game of Thrones has gone a bit soft, huh? This is the same show that cut off Ned Stark’s head and butchered Robb Stark at a wedding and shot Tywin Lannister through the bowels while he was taking a shit and crushed Oberyn Martell’s skull. And yet, it now has a big enough heart to let Brienne and Tormund and freakin’*Podrick*walk away from the biggest and bloodiest battle in Westerosi history unscathed? You’ve changed,*Game of Thrones. You used to be ruthless. You used to break our hearts. You used to not care how much we loved someone before you bashed them to pieces. This all started back when you let too many people survive in “Beyond the Wall” and now it’s become a bad habit. Where has your nerve gone?*Why*aren’t you killing the people I love?

Yes, these two reactions don’t quite gel. I know. It’s silly. But as we charge toward the ending, these characters need to find meaning in the homestretch – I’d rather a character I love die in a way that matters than live on just because we like them. And I can’t help but be concerned that some folks have been granted armor just because we like them a bunch, not because them surviving serves the story. We shall see.
 
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