Breaking Bad II - Always say "thank you" to Walt.

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I love them both. I wasn't as sold on this season of BB as everyone else until last night. Cranston and Gunn were just phenomenal.
 
They're such different animals that it's hard for me to evaluate one against the other. BrBa hits you on such a visceral level, so that likens itself to a bit of hyperbole. Mad Men is much more nuanced. Picking a favorite would change for me any given day.

They're both utterly fantastic, as close to perfect as television can get, and we're lucky to even be able to have such a discussion.
 
They're such different animals that it's hard for me to evaluate one against the other. BrBa hits you on such a visceral level, so that likens itself to a bit of hyperbole. Mad Men is much more nuanced. Picking a favorite would change for me any given day. They're both utterly fantastic, as close to perfect as television can get, and we're lucky to even be able to have such a discussion.

100% agreed, for another year at least.
 
They're both utterly fantastic, as close to perfect as television can get, and we're lucky to even be able to have such a discussion.

Agreed. They're nothing alike and both great, so why compare?

Personally, I greatly prefer recent episodes of BB to recent episodes of Mad Men. Last season was a :shrug: for me. The show is spinning its wheels too much and the lack of character progression from Don was growing tiresome, though the end of the season showed some promise on that front. BB is going to end on top, but I'm not so sure about Mad Men. I feel like it peaked with The Suitcase, whereas every new episode of BB feels like a new favorite.
 
That was a very intense episode.

Im wondering if Walter kills everyone but spares Todd. Or maybe Jesse kills Todd, hell, maybe Jesse kills Walt. Or Marie kills Walt....

This shit could go a bunch of different directions. But there's definitely some shit fixing to go down.....

Granite State and then Felina, and then im going to need some fucking therapy

usually when you let someone off the mat, it ends up biting you in the ass.

todd steered jack's guys away from the car right after the gun fight when it wouldn't have been that difficult to look under the car. and then he kept him from getting a bullet after walt spotted him.

it's almost too easy to say that jesse doesn't make it out of that situation. i think he ends up killing todd (partly as payback for drew sharp), maybe when walt busts into the compound and starts shooting up jack's crew.

i can see walt having jesse dead to rights with the M60 and letting him walk away.

or everybody dies. who really the fuck knows :shrug:

for me, the hardest part of the episode was marie's reaction after walt said they were never going to see hank again.
 
Just checking: am I the only one left who still prefers Mad Men? (just to name one show)

As excellent as Breaking Bad is, I do enjoy Mad Men more overall. BB is a little too tense and dark for me to really enjoy watching it. Which seems weird to say when I'm so excited for these last few eps, but there it is.
 
I agree with the fact that they're basically incomparable, so it comes down to personal preference.

I can also understand that the exuberance of BB fans can inspire some backlash among the non- or less-converted. I agree that episodes leave the viewer charged and emotional and prone to Internet hyperbole in the moments after the credits roll.

I enjoy both. A great deal. It's a privilege to watch either.

However, I just rewatched "Ozymandias" again, and what floors me is how perfect it is. Flawless. Every shot, every word, every verbal nuance. And that's one of at least a half dozen episodes I'd describe as "perfect" as well. For me, there's no other show I can think of where I can't imagine it being any better. And that's where part if the thrill of it lies for me, the ninja-like prowess of everyone working on the show. There are times when MM shows its seams, when it feels forced, when not everything works. And that makes the moments when it casts it's spell that much sweeter.

BB never misses.

And it could be so easy to get this wrong, too.
 
Yeah, I think it's far from perfect. "BB never misses" just sounds ridiculous to me. Not to beat a dead horse, but the secondary characters (meaning everyone but Walt) could have used some better writing, especially in the first few seasons. The point was made by someone else on another forum that shows with larger ensembles like The Sopranos and The Wire managed to flesh out their people a lot better.

I consider myself a big fan of Breaking Bad. And while I admire the visual approach, I don't think the writing comes anywhere near that level, and that's why it fails to resonate with me beyond simple entertainment.

There are times when MM shows its seams, when it feels forced, when not everything works. And that makes the moments when it casts it's spell that much sweeter.

I'd argue that because MM is tackling more than one storyline, more themes, and trying dissect the time in which it takes place (BB, by contrast, exists in a total cultural vacuum), it's a lot harder to achieve the supposed perfection you're hoping for.
 
It may be reductive: Mad Men is a great collection of short stories with a fuller ensemble; Breaking Bad is a tight, propulsive narrative with a more set structure. Within that structure, however, Gilligan and Co. establish a greater universe and hone it as it spirals downward. The reading of Gilligan's showrunning technique mimicking the scientific structure and method of its central protagonist is really fitting. Weiner's more controlled, authorial style ironically exhibits more of a focus on what we see/hear/feel about the characters on the show, though it allows for a greater ambiguity.

I think the comparison skews towards Breaking Bad's favor in that it seeks narrative fulfillment. It's a masterfully-constructed show, not without its missteps of course, but even from a pure plot-perspective it is easier to enjoy than Mad Men... though who would argue that is the "point" of either show.

Even the way folks phrase the end of Breaking Bad on here: "I don't know what's going to happen," or "I hope the writer's don't screw it up," or "I think this will happen to Character X" all phrase the conversation in a more straightforward way than one would discuss Mad Men. Then again, Breaking Bad is the more popular show of the two which merits some consideration in this argument.

tl;dr - They both rule.
 
Just checking: am I the only one left who still prefers Mad Men? (just to name one show)

Not at all. I tried picking up on season five this morning, and found that I couldn't care less about this show anymore. So I figured maybe I just need to go back and do a complete run through before it ends/I finish it. I think I've made my opinions known, in that I thought the first two seasons were a really well-done mix of dark humor, seriousness, and emotional turmoil, whereas by the third season it becomes ridiculous in its Walt vs (everything). And each time, he wins. Small town drug dealers? Check. Cancer? Check. Major drug cartels? Check. That's a long way from the guys he and Jesse were when they bumblingly robbed the chemical supply warehouse, and I didn't think they did a good enough job either 1) setting up a "watch how these characters change and grow more and more capable of doing worse and worse things," or 2) in the name of shooting for likability or sympathy, spent too much time early on focusing on fears of being caught, doubts and bring disturbed by how easy it is to dispose of a body, or mistakes made along the way. Trying to pull off both makes for muddy story telling, and what I thoroughly enjoyed for 2 seasons grew to be too over the top and dramatic. I don't know where else it could have gone, and don't know how it could have been done better. But I don't really care for where it went.

At any rate, I tried watching season 1 again, and after about three episodes, realized I didn't think it was half as good as I did the first time. Whereas with Mad Men, I could dive back in and go through that entire show a 3rd time tomorrow (I probably will once the last season starts so I'm set to pick up with that as soon as it actually ends). Yes, they're two entirely different shows, but that's what I actually find so easy about picking one over the other. Multiple story lines over the backdrop of the 1960s, even on episodes where it's not done 10/10 perfectly, it's still much more interesting to me than the obvious tensions that are manufactured solely to provide weight to the story of Walt's meth operation.

Also tl;dr. And not as nearly as well-informed on anything as LMP's.
 
The more I think about the last episode (Ozymandias), the more I think Walt has finally realized what he has done. I think after that last confrontation with his family, he saw himself through their eyes, as the thing that he's become, a monster. Maybe one of the last things he can try to do to hang on to his last shred of humanity is save Jesse. I would love this so much more than a Walt vs. Jesse ending. At first I didn't think I'd want it to end with Walt vs. the Nazis, but it wouldn't be that at all. It's Walt vs. himself now.
 
Also, to the comment above - I know, it was by way of comparison with Mad Men - but there is no way that Breaking Bad exists in a cultural vacuum.

This is early 21st-century America. The hanging-by-the-fingernails, self-deluding, middle class portion of it (in most other western countries, Walt would never have had nearly so plausible a reason to embark on his course). I live on the other side of the world and it is a terrifying place, to me.

No other place or time. This is the 2000s in the same way that Boardwalk Empire is the Twenties, and the twenties in America, not England or anywhere else.

Probably Breaking Bad feels a bit floating-up-somewhere-on-a-tether because it never namechecks news or current events, but let's say it's set in some vague land called 2007-2013, and at most it is twelve to fifteen months of these people's lives.
 
Mad Men is getting soapy these days. At its best, multiple threads are woven together brilliantly based on overarching themes that give the episode coherence and resonance. The writers' refusal to dispose of characters has placed too much space between them and Sterling Cooper, and their plots are often tenuously related at best. Grab bag episodes are always weaker, especially the 90 minute season openers the writers have fallen in love with for whatever reason. It doesn't help that, outside of Peggy (whose character progression has been amazing), nearly every character is exactly the same as they were in season one, only more depressed and erratic. And every new chick Don hooks up with is more faceless and uninteresting than the last.

I don't like Breaking Bad as much as I did when I first watched season one. It has grown more cartoonish/violent/unrealistic and I can understand why so many complain about the plot contrivances. The magnets ep was a shark jump that was highly entertaining but showed that the show's scale had perhaps grown too large. Watch that back to back with terminator Gus and you'll wonder where the hell the days of choking a dude with a bike lock to keep from being stabbed with a broken plate went. I love the pure terror and bewilderment of those early episodes and I think Walt has grown to be nearly superhuman (in that sense I agree with IWB), which is partially why I hope the series doesn't end with him alive. Nonetheless, I think many characters have improved since then and it's tough to argue that the show has grown less entertaining over the years.
 
It's heading towards a Goodfellas type ending with this last episode, but with the flash forwards we know better. They suggested that he had hit the reset button, and that definitely seems to be the case now, but he's definitely getting locked and loaded to take out the Nazis that killed Hank and stole $70 million from him. Shit gon be cray.
 
The magnets ep was a shark jump that was highly entertaining but showed that the show's scale had perhaps grown too large. Watch that back to back with terminator Gus and you'll wonder where the hell the days of choking a dude with a bike lock to keep from being stabbed with a broken plate went. I love the pure terror and bewilderment of those early episodes and I think Walt has grown to be nearly superhuman (in that sense I agree with IWB), which is partially why I hope the series doesn't end with him alive.

Well-observed.

Though I think we'll have to disagree on Mad Men. Yes, there are some episodes that are "soapy", but The Crash was a live-wire act that showed the MM crew still has the ability to try something different.

And personally, I'll take the last scene of this year's finale over any nail-biting moment from Breaking Bad.
 
I'm endlessly fascinated by people's reactions to this show's growing scope. To me, the biggest issues of "believability" or "realism" stem more from viewer expectations and ideas of narrative fulfillment vs. what is actually being presented. Tone is a tricky element to measure, though I've always been a proponent of fiction that operates on its own volition in a narrative or genre-context as long as the thematic stays consistent. The magnet moment is full-blown supervillain science fiction shit amidst a series that roots itself as either a spaghetti western or an outlaw drama. At this point, the genre in which the drama is being delivered is only a vessel for the consistently evolving elements of the series.

Breaking Bad is pure pulp noir, and like Kieran pointed out earlier, focuses within a disappearing middle class. The nihilism and fatalism present at the heart of noir ties into a realistic, current American struggle.

Assured storytelling goes a long way. I found this season of Mad Men to be a little murky, mostly because S5 is so bold in its leaps in time and character growth. S6 settles into this groove and maybe spins the wheels a bit at the beginning, but it's still my favorite show on television besides this and Louie. Then again, I've spent more time in those universes than I have in ABQ.
 
Well-observed.

Though I think we'll have to disagree on Mad Men. Yes, there are some episodes that are "soapy", but The Crash was a live-wire act that showed the MM crew still has the ability to try something different.

And personally, I'll take the last scene of this year's finale over any nail-biting moment from Breaking Bad.

I absolutely loved The Crash, for what it's worth. To me, it's just damning of the Mad Men formula (such as it is) that a particularly unusual episode was also the finest of the season.

The last scene of season 6 gave me a lot of hope for next season because it exhibited openness from Don that signals some personal growth on his part. I want to see him slow down on the drinking, get closer to his children and stop being such an asshole. His facade had a great run, but it's time to see if there's anything going on behind the sociopathy. If there isn't, well, I assumed as much years ago.
 
I'm endlessly fascinated by people's reactions to this show's growing scope. To me, the biggest issues of "believability" or "realism" stem more from viewer expectations and ideas of narrative fulfillment vs. what is actually being presented. Tone is a tricky element to measure, though I've always been a proponent of fiction that operates on its own volition in a narrative or genre-context as long as the thematic stays consistent. The magnet moment is full-blown supervillain science fiction shit amidst a series that roots itself as either a spaghetti western or an outlaw drama. At this point, the genre in which the drama is being delivered is only a vessel for the consistently evolving elements of the series.

Well, I also don't find the show very funny, and think it's at its weakest when it tries to be.

And while it may be a show that could only take place in the bleak economic "now", that context is something the viewer has to bring along, because there's none within the show itself. As I said, what's actually on-screen is in a vacuum.

BTW, Breaking Bad vs. Mad Men has become the new Joy Division vs. New Order of Zoo Station.

:applaud:
 
For the bleak economic now, what about the start of the whole series? Walt teaches chemistry at a high school, is a pretty senior member of staff by the look of it, but apparently has to do part-time duty at a carwash for shit's sakes, to maintain the life to which he is accustomed.
 
God. So fucking bleak.

"Everyone dies in this movie..."

Tonight just broke my heart.

This was my overwhelming reaction.

That time compression and fast reveal of all of these threads (in what, two weeks max?) are what's making for a thrilling endgame. How are folks digesting the whole series at one time gonna feel about this?

Interesting point, given how slow it is initially. So much happened in that latest episode.

The more I think about the last episode (Ozymandias), the more I think Walt has finally realized what he has done. I think after that last confrontation with his family, he saw himself through their eyes, as the thing that he's become, a monster.

Definitely.

I don't think I've ever had less of an idea of where a show is going to go than I do right now. 90 minutes remaining.

I do find the Walt-enters-witness-protection-becomes-Hal-Malcolm-in-the-Middle-begins theory funny though.
 
This week's Hollywood Prospectus podcast has a killer discussion on this episode, touches on a couple points that we've brought up here in a more expansive manner. Well worth the listen.

Laz, what other current shows do you keep up with besides Mad Men & Breaking Bad?
 
Laz, what other current shows do you keep up with besides Mad Men & Breaking Bad?

Not many. Louie, Doctor Who (since 1984!), Game Of Thrones, and to a less-enthusiastic extent, Orphan Black. If you want to count "miniseries-style" shows I also eagerly await the paltry 3 episodes of Black Mirror and Sherlock from the UK.

I watched House Of Cards last season but won't be continuing after the shark jump of the conclusion. Gave up on Boardwalk Empire after 4-5 episodes. Gave a big middle finger to The Killing after season 1.

I do plan on going through Treme soon (I liked the couple episodes I saw, as well as Deadwood (ditto) and one day, The Sopranos.
 
I like Vince Gilligan way more than Matthew Weiner, who kind of seems like a dick.

Who cares?

If the trade-off is being a better writer, which Weiner most certainly is, then whatever.

It should also be noted that Weiner writes a considerably larger amount of his show's material.
 
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