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Old 10-27-2003, 10:39 AM   #16
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I read the initial post on Friday and have reflected on the concept all weekend. It strikes me as an interesting theory if you want to keep God in a box.

To suggest that Christianity or Judaism is based on or influenced by Zoroastrianism changes Scripture from God's Word to a work of fiction. Scripture then comes to our level - we can take it, leave it, use it as we wish, define God as we choose and negate any accountability to God. It gives us a false sense of freedom or power.
Fiction.... for the most part, I'd tend to agree. lol. We may as well bury Lucas' tales of Star Wars, and after we've all destroyed ourselves for the most part, and most knowledge is lost... perhaps someone in a few thousand years will dig it out of the ground and believe it to be true... the history, that they will form a society around, argue about, and war about.


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Judaism is a rehash of an old form of mysticism? If find it interesting to suggest that only a few people know this “truth”.

As well, I find it interesting that every religion and cult thinks they know the 'truth'.

See my last post, about Dark and Light, Good and Evil... it's underlined.

Religion sucks.
There, I said it, I believe it, I'll stand by it, and I'll say it again....
Religion sucks.

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Old 10-27-2003, 10:44 AM   #17
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By the way... I'd like to add one factoid/observation...

If most Jews, Christians, etc... were actually to learn about the pre-Genesis stories, they'd learn that 'God' isnt/wasnt the most powerful entity, but that 'God' was only a representation of 'Light', and could be tricked, deceived, defeated, and taken advantage of.

</end babble>
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Old 10-27-2003, 10:48 AM   #18
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Quite the contrary, it is clear that God reveals Himself in many ways (Psalm 19:1, 97:6, Romans 1:18). God is certainly not limited in any way. The question is not "how God speaks" by becomes "what is authority?" If we take away the authority, how can we even say or be sure that Jesus is God.

If the evidence has always run contrary to this, Christianity would have dies out long ago.
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Old 10-27-2003, 10:54 AM   #19
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First, there is no Satan in Judaism.

Second, the CLOSEST thing you can even find to a 'Dark' side exists only within pre-Genesis stories, which are not even in the Torah, and were not carried on into the modern 'religion' for the most part. Most Jews don't even realize that Dark angels have/had anything to do with Judaism. Heck, most people don't even understand that is was Noah that was corrupt himself, and tricked God, breaking their contract.

Melon, you're making a very general statement, one which has no backing. In Judaism, who do you claim is Satan?
There is Satan in Judaism. The Hebrew word Satan means "hinderer". They don't believe Satan to be a rebelling force against God, but more of a force created by God who's purpose is to Tempt and hinder humans.
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Old 10-27-2003, 11:05 AM   #20
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[As well, Kabbalah the root of Judaism (the ancient mysticism I mentioned previously) is today branded as some BS cult like, celebrity fad... by the likes of people such as Madonna. Kabbalah is NOT something that can be taught, despite what many people today may think, and is VERY different than what the masses of the 'regular' Jewish population 'believe'.
Actually, from what I've read, Kabbalah has its roots in Talmudic scriptures, which is post-Biblical, and, while being fully developed in the Middle Ages (c. A.D. 1200), the first seeds began to emerge around A.D 150-600.

But I will openly admit that I know nothing about it, so please feel free to explain further and even refute what I read above.

As for the rest, I will try and explain later, but I will concede on one of my points.

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Old 10-27-2003, 11:06 AM   #21
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First, there is no Satan in Judaism.
Job 1?
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Old 10-27-2003, 11:21 AM   #22
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What I'm getting to, melon, is that perhaps instead of questioning how the Zoroastrian beliefs may have influenced Judaism, and Christianity, you should be questioning how Kabbalah perhaps influenced Zoroastrian beliefs, and how Kabbalah influenced others.

Now, if you go poking around on the net, or even most books, you're going to find that Kabbalah surfaces after the exile... but don't be mislead. Kabbalah was not to be taught or discussed among those that did not pursue it on their own. It is something within, which leads me to this...

Personally, I feel that most people can't understand what Kabbalah really is, there are currently tooooo many misdirections (which is ironic, seeing as though it's not supposed to be taught, etc). BUT... if you want a pretty good interpretation, just look at George Lucas' The Force.

Unfortunately, as far as Kabbalah goes, I've got no great web sites to quote for you melon, no great books to quote either... what's written is misleading, fiction, assumption, flat out wrong, and is simply that... written.

Language is mans gift, and tragedy.

So, why have I wasted your time? Because I feel it almost pointless to argue, or even discuss, what influenced what, at what point, or where.... why? because when you break it all down, there is Light and Dark, Good and Evil, and a million other linguistical ways to describe the same thing.

Humans have spent so much time philosophising, writing, discussing, arguing, and warring that they have lost sight of the most simplistic things to understand.

Actually... I know why I rarely get into discussions about these things: people end up focusing on timelines, semantics, names, labels, and the tangible, and the more I think about it, the more I realize that I only use the term 'Kabbalah' because it most describes what I'm talking about, without actually being specific, YET, with all the mis-information out there, what I'm trying to convey as Kabbalah (or it's beliefs) are incredibly different than anything you'll read.

I'll leave you with my babble, I've had enough for now
Well, one thing I will admit is that it is difficult to look back at something 2000+ years ago. "History" is difficult enough for the past decade, and, yes, groups and people have different colored lenses for each part of history, so it is difficult, IMO, to look for the definitive "Truth."

From a postmodernist sense, I'm more interested in perception--as in how people perceived things to come to a "Truth" conclusion--so that's why I often write what I do about religion. It's to ask questions, and, hopefully, incite a discussion. I don't think that there is necessarily one answer to this discussion, so I appreciate all different thoughts on this matter.

Anyhow, I think I'll leave with my babble too for now...lol.

Melon
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Old 10-27-2003, 11:24 AM   #23
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Like I said, what's written is misleading, and most of it just fiction anyway... especially about Kabbalah.

When something 'emerges' says nothing.... for instance, I have thoughts about certain things which I've never discussed, or have with a very few. When I do eventually disucss them publicly, say 50 yrs from now, would you then consider that is when the idea 'emerges' ?

I've read (just for comparison) many books, as well as crap on the net, about Kabbalah, and they ALL seem to be different, especially when it comes to timeline.

Kabbalah has become a label, I shouldnt have used it. It's the ideas/knowledge that make up Kabbalah that I was trying to use as example, of course, I can't really explain those in language.

It really annoys me at times that people feel that creation, God, the universe, etc can be explained and labeled with philosophical rants and equations. It is language that misleads us, it is language that pushes humans farther away from the 'truth'... and I don't think it was an accident.

Tower of Bable - fiction, fact, or both?

Can you think without words?

Can you dream without words?

Can you know something so well, but not have the words to explain it to another?

Just something to think about.
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Old 10-27-2003, 11:28 AM   #24
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Interesting. So, is Kabbalah what you make of it or is there authority?
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Old 10-27-2003, 11:39 AM   #25
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Job 1?
satan in the Torah does not hold the same modern 'christian' meaning as it does today.

I did not mean to imply that there is no tempation, but that there is no 'character' named as satan.

Just for a better explanation, which is similar to what I've read, and been told before....
Quote:
<<I have been asked the following and would like to give a definitive
answer. Does Rabinnic law suggest that the devil exists? If so, is it an
angel? And, if an angel, does it have any power?">>

The Talmud, (Baba Batra 16:a), tells us regarding the satan: "He is satan,
he is the evil inclination (yatzer hara) and he is the angel of death." I
believe that the Talmud is saying that although there may not be an actual
being with independent powers as the satan - there is an evil inclination
that tempts a person, leads a person to sin, (although he can defeat it),
and eventually causes death. (The Talmud also tells us that only 4 people
died without having sinned at all.)
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Old 10-27-2003, 11:51 AM   #26
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Interesting. So, is Kabbalah what you make of it or is there authority?

Ugh, again, how can I explain something that cant be explained?

I'll sort of try....
lol

as far as an authority on it, like any religion, belief, philosophy it depends on who you ask.

My opinion.. NO, there isn't, atleast not one that is announced and claiming such, which makes perfect sense, because those that KNOW Kabbalah are not supposed to preach it, teach it, or explain what it actually is (my reasoning for not being able to put it to words... words wouldnt do it justice anyway).

I used Lucas' 'The Force' as a vague example before, and while I admit its a shitty example...I'll take it a step further.....

imagine being able to feel everything around you, and not around you, not being limited to physical being, or even your mental capacity, being at one with everything, and nothing, trees, rocks, people, animals, stars, space, timelessness, infinity, accepting that there is no start, no end, to up or down, no time, no difference between living, non-living, spirits, souls, "God", angels, etc.....

See I can't describe it, I can go on and on, and I'd never even touch on it, I can't describe something which has no label.

There is Light and Dark, and they run as one. Everything exists within non-existence.

I'll carry on with my 'religion sucks' theme....

Language sucks.
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Old 10-27-2003, 11:52 AM   #27
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I think people who say the Bible is the dictated word of God are being a little naive.

divinely inspired...perhaps

nb...I dont see how it would be shattering to me if the bible were shown NOT to be an authority. Are you saying God can only relate to us through old words?
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Old 10-27-2003, 11:52 AM   #28
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"He is satan, he is the evil inclination (yatzer hara) and he is the angel of death."
I'm not sure how you go from person to "a force" from these statements. In fact, it seems consistent with the references in Job and Isaiah.
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Old 10-27-2003, 11:55 AM   #29
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I'm not sure how you go from person to "a force" from these statements. In fact, it seems consistent with the references in Job and Isaiah.

Come now... personification is used frequently in the Torah, as well as many writings. Stop letting language get in the way.
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Old 10-27-2003, 11:56 AM   #30
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nb...I dont see how it would be shattering to me if the bible were shown NOT to be an authority. Are you saying God can only relate to us through old words?
Not at all. In fact, God relates to us directly or others through believers by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And God contnues to communicates to all of us (Psalm 19:1, 97:6, Romans 1:18).

Naive? Doesn't that assume a higher form of wisdom if you reject the Bible as God's Word?
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