Zack, prisoner at "ex-gay" camp, to come home this weekend - Page 7 - U2 Feedback

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Old 07-28-2005, 11:03 AM   #91
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
But that's my point. You can't guarantee anything about Ben, because you don't know his story. How do you know he didn't enroll himself; Is there something in there that I missed?
Call it a hunch. Human nature is way too predictable.

The fact is that even you don't know who he is or who is parents are, so you are conjecturing as much as I.

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Old 07-28-2005, 11:54 AM   #92
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As for the "work" comment, you are now attempting to redefine what you originally said. You originally said:

"poor girl that marries Ben -- must make you feel really good to know that your husband has to try really hard to find you sexually attractive."

The way that statement is worded makes it seem as if it applies to meeting a girl and having to work at finding her attractive. It doesn't seem to mean that the work was the camp itself.


you don't think that the "work" done at the camp was "working" at finding girls attractive "enough"?

the camp is supposed to give him skills (shame, prayer) that will help him from lapsing into his authentic self. one must work to learn skills just as one must work to utilize skills when they are needed.

and every time Ben's wife wants to have sex, he's going to have to use those skills.

poor ben. poor future mrs. ben.

one of the great joys of sexuality, for me and i assume many others, is it's unpredictability and spontenaity. when attraction isn't immediate and must be indoctrinated, this kills most of the joy.

and i don't mean orgasm joy. i mean the joy of being fully human.
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Old 07-28-2005, 12:03 PM   #93
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I can't believe we're actually arguing over whether or not it's okay to send a CHILD to a camp that tells him or her that there's something intrinsically wrong with him or her, something that ALL good science and psychology out there today says is impossible to change.

There's faith in what the will of God and the human spirit can accomplish...and then there's crap like this.
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Old 07-28-2005, 12:07 PM   #94
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I can't believe we're actually arguing over whether or not it's okay to send a CHILD to a camp that tells him or her that there's something intrinsically wrong with him or her, something that ALL good science and psychology out there today says is impossible to change.

There's faith in what the will of God and the human spirit can accomplish...and then there's crap like this.


yes.

which is why i am suspicious to the point of disdainful when people point to the bible to justify such behavior towards their children.

i can't believe it's worse to be gay than it is to tell your child that, in the deepest and rawest and most primal of places (how we are wired to love), that they're somehow sick, and can be cured.
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Old 07-28-2005, 12:20 PM   #95
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


But that's my point. You can't guarantee anything about Ben, because you don't know his story. How do you know he didn't enroll himself; Is there something in there that I missed?
He didn't.

The story was on Paula Zahn last night. His parents said they had "had enough" of this gay nonsense, packed him up in an RV and took him up there. He had no desire to go himself.
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Old 07-28-2005, 12:30 PM   #96
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Originally posted by melon


Call it a hunch. Human nature is way too predictable.

The fact is that even you don't know who he is or who is parents are, so you are conjecturing as much as I.

Melon
I'm not conjecturing anything. I didn't guarantee that he signed himself in. I just asked you how you could be sure he didn't. Also, I'm not saying how he feels about anything, except what he has himself indicated by his own words.
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Old 07-28-2005, 12:31 PM   #97
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you don't think that the "work" done at the camp was "working" at finding girls attractive "enough"?
But that's not what you said. You specifically referred to his future wife.
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Old 07-28-2005, 12:33 PM   #98
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He didn't.

The story was on Paula Zahn last night. His parents said they had "had enough" of this gay nonsense, packed him up in an RV and took him up there. He had no desire to go himself.
Ben or Zack?

If it's Ben, and you saw it, then you can say that he didn't want5 to go, because he said so himself.

But my point before I knew that was that people who don't know him couldn't base any assumption on anything other than what he said.
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Old 07-28-2005, 01:48 PM   #99
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Kudos to the great discussion going on here! For what it's worth, I'm gay and live with another man in a happy, committed relationship that looks to last forever. Oh, and I'm a Christian, too. Seems like a lot of people don't know how to be "real" Christians and the leaders of camps like this, as well as Zack's parents, are a great example of this.

I saw someone's signature line "Don't let the bastards grind you down". Indeed. Interesting that I was just listening to that song on my iPod. Take care everyone!
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Old 07-28-2005, 01:51 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by pax
I can't believe we're actually arguing over whether or not it's okay to send a CHILD to a camp that tells him or her that there's something intrinsically wrong with him or her, something that ALL good science and psychology out there today says is impossible to change.

There's faith in what the will of God and the human spirit can accomplish...and then there's crap like this.
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i can't believe it's worse to be gay than it is to tell your child that, in the deepest and rawest and most primal of places (how we are wired to love), that they're somehow sick, and can be cured.
to both of you-110% in agreement.

Angela
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Old 07-28-2005, 01:51 PM   #101
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


But that's not what you said. You specifically referred to his future wife.


what makes you think he's going to have to "work" any less at finding his future wife attractive? she will be a girl, won't she?

honestly 80s, you get bogged down into such details that you totally lose sight of the discussion.
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Old 07-28-2005, 01:52 PM   #102
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Kudos to the great discussion going on here! For what it's worth, I'm gay and live with another man in a happy, committed relationship that looks to last forever. Oh, and I'm a Christian, too. Seems like a lot of people don't know how to be "real" Christians and the leaders of camps like this, as well as Zack's parents, are a great example of this.

I saw someone's signature line "Don't let the bastards grind you down". Indeed. Interesting that I was just listening to that song on my iPod. Take care everyone!


and you, sir, are what we need more of: role models.

good luck to you and your partner, and thank you for sharing.
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Old 07-28-2005, 01:54 PM   #103
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Originally posted by Irvine511
and you, sir, are what we need more of: role models.

good luck to you and your partner, and thank you for sharing.
And I'll ditto this as well. Glad you've found that special someone, MCF74 .

Angela
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Old 07-28-2005, 01:57 PM   #104
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Originally posted by Irvine511



honestly 80s, you get bogged down into such details that you totally lose sight of the discussion.
How did I lose sight of the discussion? You made some assumptions about Ben that weren't based on anything he actually said and I pointed it out.
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Old 07-28-2005, 02:22 PM   #105
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How did I lose sight of the discussion? You made some assumptions about Ben that weren't based on anything he actually said and I pointed it out.

i made assumptions on Ben based on what he said, what i saw, and what my experience has been. everything that Ben has said, many, many gay men have heard before, and possibly said themselves. and i'm also well aware that i'm reading into this, making an analysis, and possibly even making an assumption or two. such is the nature of discourse and conversation.

you're being argumentative on the basis of word choice -- do you have a point? or are you just going to continue to nit-pick things that are probably attributable to the casual nature of this forum?
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