Zack, prisoner at "ex-gay" camp, to come home this weekend - Page 6 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-28-2005, 10:11 AM   #76
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


i have two thoughts:

1. poor girl that marries Ben -- must make you feel really good to know that your husband has to try really hard to find you sexually attractive.

2. poor Ben. evidently, it's better to be sexless, loveless, and celibate than to be gay.
Irvine, what about Ben's own words:

"B. MARSHALL: I think it's possible. I think I'm attracted to women enough right now that it can eventually develop into a relationship. I know I'm capable of that. If it don't get that, that's fine. Celibacy is an option for me right now."

Ben's own words shows that Thought 1 is assumption on your part. Ben says he finds women attractive now. He didn't say anything about having to "try really hard" to find women attractive.

Your second thought is based purely on your own desires and priorities, and yet you say "poor Ben". From the entire section on Ben, it seems to me that Ben is content now, and might even want a relationship with a woman. What makes you think that he'll never have that? And if he doesn't, his quote sure makes it seem that he's quite okay with being celibate, and it is his choice to be so. Seems to me that you want him to remain "gay", when he shows no indication in this article of wanting that. If you met the guy and you could see some things that are not evident from this article, that would be different. But all we have to go by at this point are his words in this article. Why do you find it acceptable to make the judgment that homosexuality is what's best for him, but you find it unacceptable if people make the judgment that homosexulaity is not what's best for him?
__________________

__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 07-28-2005, 10:16 AM   #77
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 07:18 AM
Ben is young. What if he decides that what's best for him is to have a long-term relationship with another man? He may be under a lot of pressure right now to try to be straight or be celibate, but there's a lot of teenagers in religious households who do the same things without going to a brainwashing camp. Then when they get older, they realize that they are better off being true to themselves, rather than trying to conform to what other people want him to be.

Or down the line, you become Governor of New Jersey and have to hurt your wife by openly declaring that you're gay and that you've been having affairs with other men. Is that fair to either one of them?

FYI, these "camps" admit to only a 33% success rate, at most.

Melon
__________________

__________________
melon is offline  
Old 07-28-2005, 10:32 AM   #78
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

Irvine, what about Ben's own words:

"B. MARSHALL: I think it's possible. I think I'm attracted to women enough right now that it can eventually develop into a relationship. I know I'm capable of that. If it don't get that, that's fine. Celibacy is an option for me right now."

Ben's own words shows that Thought 1 is assumption on your part. Ben says he finds women attractive now. He didn't say anything about having to "try really hard" to find women attractive.

Your second thought is based purely on your own desires and priorities, and yet you say "poor Ben". From the entire section on Ben, it seems to me that Ben is content now, and might even want a relationship with a woman. What makes you think that he'll never have that? And if he doesn't, his quote sure makes it seem that he's quite okay with being celibate, and it is his choice to be so. Seems to me that you want him to remain "gay", when he shows no indication in this article of wanting that. If you met the guy and you could see some things that are not evident from this article, that would be different. But all we have to go by at this point are his words in this article. Why do you find it acceptable to make the judgment that homosexuality is what's best for him, but you find it unacceptable if people make the judgment that homosexulaity is not what's best for him?

um, yes 80s, i was offering my thoughts/opinions.

Ben said that he finds women attractive ENOUGH and that he's CAPABLE of having a heterosexual relationship.

any girls out there want to jump into this boy's arms?

i also think you're underestimating Ben's choice. Ben is young and wants to please his parents, and they would clearly prefer celibacy to being an "active" gay person (Ben's sexual orientation isn't going anywhere no mater how he might be able to smother it).

i love the line "...that homosexuality is not what's best for him." it shows how thoroughly you don't understand sexual orientation. Ben can't change his homosexuality no more than i can be left-handed. sure, i can train myself to write (not so well) with my left hand, but i'll never be authentically left-handed. you don't select homosexuality as if it were a car. do you think, 80s, that through prayer and self-discipline you can train yourself to be sexually attracted to other men?

Ben has a few choices: he can either work hard at being in a heterosexual relationship (probably not a good option, especially for his wife), he can be celibate (which is fine if that's what he wants ... but i would argue that viewing life as a celibacy vs gay choice is precisely the wrong reason to be celibate), or he can come out and be who he is and work with others.

let's say he chooses option 1. what happens?

Ben suppresses his sexual urges that are as natural to anyone as the human drives to eat or breathe. he gets married and has couple of kids. still, something is gnawing at him deep down inside, something that he has been denied and will never get with the life that has been forced upon him. out of shame for what he has been told is not "normal" or "Christian," he gets on the Internet or sneaks off to a gay bathhouse and begins having furtive, anonymous sex. because he has been told repeatedly that he is not worthy of the kind of stable relationship that he desires, he engages in self-destructive behavior, possibly drugs and unprotected sex. he catches HIV and brings it home to his wife. suddenly, two lives are destroyed. worse, maybe the shame that has been beaten into him drives him to suicide.

let's say he chooses option 3. or, better, Ben has parents who are more concerned with the safety and welfare of their child than about their "beliefs."

instead, Ben grows up in a loving, accepting family where he is taught that he can be who he is and aspire to healthier relationships with men, based on self-respect, he starts out several steps ahead, with the tools he needs to act responsibly to himself and others.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 07-28-2005, 10:34 AM   #79
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
FYI, these "camps" admit to only a 33% success rate, at most.


and they equate "success" as someone who "comes out of a homosexual lifestyle" -- which is to say they stop dating, loving, and having sex with members of their own gender.

it does NOT mean that they have "turned" straight.

i imagine that percentage would be in the single digits, at it's best and most inflated.

for more info:

http://www.waynebesen.com/
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 07-28-2005, 10:35 AM   #80
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Ben is young. What if he decides that what's best for him is to have a long-term relationship with another man? He may be under a lot of pressure right now to try to be straight or be celibate, but there's a lot of teenagers in religious households who do the same things without going to a brainwashing camp. Then when they get older, they realize that they are better off being true to themselves, rather than trying to conform to what other people want him to be.

Or down the line, you become Governor of New Jersey and have to hurt your wife by openly declaring that you're gay and that you've been having affairs with other men. Is that fair to either one of them?

FYI, these "camps" admit to only a 33% success rate, at most.

Melon
Melon, since we don't know Ben, the only thing we go on is what he says in this article. The "ifs" may happen, but we can't assume it, because based on this article, Ben appears to be content now.

However, my stance on these kinds of camps is this:

They will not work on people who do not want to be there. I think that if a kid wants to go the camp, that's fine. But to force him will do no good, and he might just "play straight" just to get out of the camp.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 07-28-2005, 10:40 AM   #81
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

They will not work on people who do not want to be there. I think that if a kid wants to go the camp, that's fine. But to force him will do no good, and he might just "play straight" just to get out of the camp.


i think that's fair.

however, i would wonder why a kid would want to be at a camp in the first place -- could it be because he's been told, at home at school and at church, that homosexuality is "wrong"? it's "immoral"?

wouldn't we all be a lot healthier if we were to understand homosexuality as a naturally occuring difference or variation of human sexuality that's no better and no worse than heterosexuality?
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 07-28-2005, 10:40 AM   #82
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



um, yes 80s, i was offering my thoughts/opinions.
In offering your thoughts and opinions, you were projecting your desires and priorities upon Ben, and in effect were saying "this is how it is for Ben", when the only evidence we have (Ben's own words) do not support your desires and priorities.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 07-28-2005, 10:44 AM   #83
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


In offering your thoughts and opinions, you were projecting your desires and priorities upon Ben, and in effect were saying "this is how it is for Ben", when the only evidence we have (Ben's own words) do not support your desires and priorities.


but i've been there.

and i saw the piece last night. really felt for him. seemed like such a good kid, trying so hard to be good, and the one little thing he can't change about himself is enough to negate each and every good thing about him, in the eyes of his parents and in the eyes of what he conceives of as God.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 07-28-2005, 10:46 AM   #84
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




but i've been there.

and i saw the piece last night. really felt for him. seemed like such a good kid, trying so hard to be good, and the one little thing he can't change about himself is enough to negate each and every good thing about him, in the eyes of his parents and in the eyes of what he conceives of as God.
Maybe you have, but why do you assume that all experiences will turn out as yours did?

In your mind, is there zero possibility that Ben's words actually reflect his true feelings?
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 07-28-2005, 10:49 AM   #85
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Maybe you have, but why do you assume that all experiences will turn out as yours did?

In your mind, is there zero possibility that Ben's words actually reflect his true feelings?


i think the statistical success rate (or lack of success rate) of these camps belies what Ben says are his true feelings.

if you're going to beat this against the wall, yes OF COURSE there's a chance Ben will successfully conduct a heterosexual relationship. however, if Ben has to work (and if 8 months at such a camp isn't work i don't know what you'd call it) to find women attractive "enough," based upon both personal experience and the experiences of others, my instinct tells me that it's not going to work out.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 07-28-2005, 10:51 AM   #86
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
In your mind, is there zero possibility that Ben's words actually reflect his true feelings?
Sure. Just like when a teenager says that he's in love with someone, and parents say that he's too young to know that's he's in love. The parents are probably right, in that instance, and yet, we think that Ben is somehow going to remain a monolith and not change his mind on this subject.

Guaranteed: Ben did not make this decision on his own. Wanna bet his parents think being gay is an abominable sin? I don't know many people who have supportive parents and choose to go to those kind of camps anyway.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 07-28-2005, 10:52 AM   #87
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 19,271
Local Time: 06:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by LoveTown
s to Irvine511 and Moonlit_Angel
.

Also, to MrsSpringsteen, too. I just never understood the whole concept of trying to "change" who people can love. Once again, would straight people appreciate it if gay people tried to make them turn gay? If the answer is no, then don't try and make gay people straight! Just leave them alone, let them love who they want to love! That kind of thing should be nobody else's beeswax, anyway.

Also, meant to mention this earlier, but I, too, would like to give a and to you, Irvine, for helping out like you are . You'll do a great job with those kids, I know you will.

Angela
__________________
Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 07-28-2005, 10:56 AM   #88
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

however, if Ben has to work (and if 8 months at such a camp isn't work i don't know what you'd call it) to find women attractive "enough,"
As for the "work" comment, you are now attempting to redefine what you originally said. You originally said:

"poor girl that marries Ben -- must make you feel really good to know that your husband has to try really hard to find you sexually attractive."

The way that statement is worded makes it seem as if it applies to meeting a girl and having to work at finding her attractive. It doesn't seem to mean that the work was the camp itself.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 07-28-2005, 10:59 AM   #89
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Guaranteed: Ben did not make this decision on his own. Wanna bet his parents think being gay is an abominable sin? I don't know many people who have supportive parents and choose to go to those kind of camps anyway.

Melon
But that's my point. You can't guarantee anything about Ben, because you don't know his story. How do you know he didn't enroll himself; Is there something in there that I missed?
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 07-28-2005, 11:02 AM   #90
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 06:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


In offering your thoughts and opinions, you were projecting your desires and priorities upon Ben, and in effect were saying "this is how it is for Ben", when the only evidence we have (Ben's own words) do not support your desires and priorities.
You did the same exact thing. You changed
Quote:
I think I'm attracted to women enough right now
to mean look he must be cured.

If anyone has to think about it or say well I'm attracted ENOUGH to do this has a problem.
__________________

__________________
BVS is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com