Youths Riot In France Over Jobs Law-Is it just a “French” thing?

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BorderGirl

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The Washington Post article on this story and the real treat is this quote:

They’re offering us nothing but slavery,” said Maud Pottier, 17, a student at Jules Verne High School in Sartrouville, north of Paris, who was wrapped in layers of scarves as protection against the chilly, gray day. “You’ll get a job knowing that you’ve got to do every single thing they ask you to do because otherwise you may get sacked."

Before we all feel sorry for them, here are some quotes I found on the net:

"You do what you are told at work, IT IS WHAT THEY PAY YOU FOR.

My friends are getting sick of these type people.

Since this is what modern liberalism is about, I pray that the GOP rules for the next 1000 years.
This type of thinking has to go.

The current regulations in France are making it difficult for employers to hire workers because the laws make it virtually impossible to fire incompetent ones and the required benefits and severance packages are cost prohibitive. So a company isn’t going to hire full-time employees under that system of laws - they’re going to hire temps, or not at all.

Economists blame this for France’s stagnant (and failing) economy.

But the kiddies are so used to thinking they’re “entitled” to such things, that they are naturally going to put up a fight when their entitlement is challenged.

And, to you who said: “You’ll get a job knowing that you’ve got to do every single thing they ask you to do because otherwise you may get sacked.”

THAT’S WHAT WORK IS. You find a company that needs your services. They pay you for those services, so long as you provide what they want. Would you tip a waitress for bad service? Would you pay for a defective product? Would you put money into an investment you know will fail? I don’t think so. So why should a company have to suck up the liability for your lazy a$$ and pay you when you don’t do what you’re told?

This socialist propaganda is making me ill."
 
while i think it's fairly obvious that much of Europe is suffering from being unable to keep the promises of the welfare state, and painful changes are both long overdue and inevitable, i think we'd also do well to understand that there are different ways of looking at the value of "work" in a society, and also of looking at how "work" is supposed to benefit a society. simply because a country doesn't adopt the hyper-capitalistic aggressive ethos of the United States -- you know, the ethos that has given us Enron and WorldCom -- doesn't mean that it's "socialist propaganda." simply because there's a view of economics that's different than your own doesn't mean that it's automatically incorrect.

why do these french people piss you off so much? are you one of those americans that gets irate when the service at your average Parisian bistro is slower than the aggressive turn-over mentality at the local TGI Friday's in the exurban strip mall?
 
Irvine511 said:
while i think it's fairly obvious that much of Europe is suffering from being unable to keep the promises of the welfare state, and painful changes are both long overdue and inevitable, i think we'd also do well to understand that there are different ways of looking at the value of "work" in a society, and also of looking at how "work" is supposed to benefit a society. simply because a country doesn't adopt the hyper-capitalistic aggressive ethos of the United States -- you know, the ethos that has given us Enron and WorldCom -- doesn't mean that it's "socialist propaganda." simply because there's a view of economics that's different than your own doesn't mean that it's automatically incorrect.

Agreed, in my view the systems of countries like Switzerland (for example) offer a good middle ground between statism and free market dynamics.
 
Irvine511 said:
are you one of those americans that gets irate when the service at your average Parisian bistro is slower than the aggressive turn-over mentality at the local TGI Friday's in the exurban strip mall?

No, when in Rome, I do as the Romans do. Every culture is as valid as our own even if you or I don't eat at TGIF.
The situation in Paris is one of whether or not entitlement laws hinder economics.
 
BorderGirl said:


No, when in Rome, I do as the Romans do. Every culture is as valid as our own even if you or I don't eat at TGIF.
The situation in Paris is one of whether or not entitlement laws hinder economics.



then why the anger over "socialist propaganda"?

don't attitudes towards economics directly inform cultural practices? you brought up not tipping for bad service, yet one does not expect "service" in a French restaurant the way that one experiences service in an American chain restaurant -- the waiter in France is not working for tips, so the food might come much more slowly, yet once you've paid for your meal the table is yours for the rest of the day as opposed to the American waiter who will hover over you until you leave.

there are varying degrees of socialism, and France is hardly a purely socialist country, and while we're in agreement about the ability of the state to continue to pay for entitlements, i don't think it's right to view a more collective understanding of society as simple "propaganda." not everyone wants to be like the US.
 
financeguy said:


Agreed, in my view the systems of countries like Switzerland (for example) offer a good middle ground between statism and free market dynamics.

Can you recommend a good book to read about Swiss politics in general? I don't know anything about their system.
 
financeguy said:


Well I don't know if I can think of a book offhand, I was just making the point that there is a middle ground between unrestrained capitalism and statism.

Wikipedia article on the Swiss economy :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Switzerland

I love Switzerland. I wouldn't mind living there if I weren't such a linguistic klutz and my French was better. :reject:
 
verte76 said:
I love Switzerland. I wouldn't mind living there if I weren't such a linguistic klutz and my French was better. :reject:

Most Swiss speak English pretty well, probably as a result of growing up in a multilingual environment.
 
Yeah, but I always feel like an idiot for not speaking the language of the people I'm visiting. I've been told that enough Turks speak English for me not to be nervous about it in Turkey, but I'm still going to try to learn some Turkish. I want to at least be able to say "hello" and "thank you".
 
I don't worship capitalism, but I don't hate it either. I don't mind people making money. I don't like Enron, either, though, and I don't like Bush's tax cuts for the rich. It's going to take our grandchildren forever to clean up this debt.
 
verte76 said:
I want to at least be able to say "hello" and "thank you".

Very important words in any language!

Habari gani? That translates to "how are you" in Kiswahili, the national language spoken in Kenya.

Merhaba!
That is hello in Turkish.

Thank you is,
Tesekkurler ( teh-sheh-keur eh-deh-rim)
Çok tesekkur ederim (big thanks)
Saðol (thank you)
Saðolun (thank you - "saol")

"Hoscakal" is good-bye.
Google is a great thing.:)
 
The current regulations in France are making it difficult for employers to hire workers because the laws make it virtually impossible to fire incompetent ones and the required benefits and severance packages are cost prohibitive. So a company isn’t going to hire full-time employees under that system of laws - they’re going to hire temps, or not at all.

This seems to go to the core of the issue. The system made hiring so expensive that employers look to other means to complete the jobs. It happens in different forms in all other parts of the economy. Overprice a component, and the market will find it for less.
 
Seems like that in order for France's economy to grow or even to compete globally, they'll have to put a more unrestrictive employment system in place. There has to be some freedom or incentive for businesses to develop beyond small service-oriented types.

But, on the other hand, if this happens, France could some of its flavor & this would effect tourism income, which should be a major consideration.
 
I'm chuckling over a lot of this. I actually had a good argument over this with someone in France--and I was on the "free market" side.

An interesting explanation I was given in return was that these labor laws are very sacred to the French. That is, people died for these laws and it would be a slap in their face to repeal them. It's not so different than America's knee-jerk nationalism when it comes to military veterans and wars.

Regardless, I also know that France has a high unemployment rate and *something* has to be done. But I'll let the French deal with it themselves. Those idiots on FOX News whining that the French just don't want to work can just shove it. Your prejudice-laced comments are not needed or wanted.

As Sarkozy put it, the French are open to change. You just need to properly explain why change is needed. In the case of this major change in labor law, nobody in the government has properly and thoroughly explained why this change is necessary, nor have they alleviated any concerns that those affected by this law just won't be exploited and mistreated.

I wish we all had a month's vacation. I've never understood why we have so much loyalty to work when employers don't have second thoughts about cutting your benefits or firing you at the end of the day. It makes me sick when I realize that every year for the next 30 years or so, I will only have two weeks to myself a year. It's pretty perverse, if you ask me.

Melon
 
BorderGirl said:


Very important words in any language!

Habari gani? That translates to "how are you" in Kiswahili, the national language spoken in Kenya.

Merhaba!
That is hello in Turkish.

Thank you is,
Tesekkurler ( teh-sheh-keur eh-deh-rim)
Çok tesekkur ederim (big thanks)
Saðol (thank you)
Saðolun (thank you - "saol")

"Hoscakal" is good-bye.
Google is a great thing.:)

Thanks for the linguistic help! A Turk is setting up a practical Turkish list on a Turkey tour list I'm on, and that will be a big help as well.
 
melon said:
...As Sarkozy put it, the French are open to change....

In theory, maybe, but probably not when it effects traditional life style. Traditions are sacred in France.
 
SunBloc said:


In theory, maybe, but probably not when it effects traditional life style. Traditions are sacred in France.



this is true. i adore Europe, and much of what i adore is their passioante attachment to notions of French-ness, or Dutch-ness, or German-ness.

yet this romantic attachment to an idealized notion of culture is becoming increasingly self-defeating, not to mention fueling nationalism as we're seeing in the rise of far right candidates like Le Pen.

i think the vast majority of Europeans view their cultures as something inclusive and tolerant, and for the most part i think they're correct. but, as with any culture, there's always a downside, and i think the current state of economic stagnation and intransigence to change is a current manifestation of such a downside.
 
That passionate attachment to tradition runs through the veins of the French. In many ways (some of which do not make money, and some of which do) this is the greatest attribute of their nation.

I don't see the demonstrators backing down. It is possible that special trade zone(s) around Paris may be set up with regulations that may ease the restrictions on larger businesses. The opposition in France will not die. Production levels will hurt big business till they compromise.
 
BorderGirl :applaud:

You know the French are going through quite a difficult transition. Whilst they undoubtedly have many very strong attributes, they have some difficult decisions to make on immigration, employment and the role of the state.

In my view the role of any state is to lay the economic foundations that allow its businesses to compete on a level playing field...which leads me to think what they are doing on employment rules is a necessary (if difficult) hurdle to pass. If they resist now their future will suffer...much in the same way that the UK did in the 70s and early 80s when unions led national strikes.
 
I like the European regard for tradition also, but in this case it's hurting the French. Their employment situation is going to get worse if they don't change at least certain aspects of the labor situation.
 
SunBloc said:
In theory, maybe, but probably not when it effects traditional life style. Traditions are sacred in France.

And economic traditions (pensions, benefits, guaranteed employment) are just as hard, if not more difficult, to change.
 
melon said:
I'm chuckling over a lot of this. I actually had a good argument over this with someone in France--and I was on the "free market" side.

An interesting explanation I was given in return was that these labor laws are very sacred to the French. That is, people died for these laws and it would be a slap in their face to repeal them. It's not so different than America's knee-jerk nationalism when it comes to military veterans and wars.

Regardless, I also know that France has a high unemployment rate and *something* has to be done. But I'll let the French deal with it themselves. Those idiots on FOX News whining that the French just don't want to work can just shove it. Your prejudice-laced comments are not needed or wanted.

As Sarkozy put it, the French are open to change. You just need to properly explain why change is needed. In the case of this major change in labor law, nobody in the government has properly and thoroughly explained why this change is necessary, nor have they alleviated any concerns that those affected by this law just won't be exploited and mistreated.

I wish we all had a month's vacation. I've never understood why we have so much loyalty to work when employers don't have second thoughts about cutting your benefits or firing you at the end of the day. It makes me sick when I realize that every year for the next 30 years or so, I will only have two weeks to myself a year. It's pretty perverse, if you ask me.

Melon

The voice of reason speaks again.

(you only have 2 weeks of holidays? what´s THAT??!! we complain when we don´t get 3 weeks of the 5 weeks/ year in summer. but most of these fixed jobs are gone... many companies only hire people for project work)
 
melon said:
I wish we all had a month's vacation. I've never understood why we have so much loyalty to work when employers don't have second thoughts about cutting your benefits or firing you at the end of the day. It makes me sick when I realize that every year for the next 30 years or so, I will only have two weeks to myself a year. It's pretty perverse, if you ask me.



although, given your editing skills, i bet you'll one day find yourself a hot-shot producer who can work freelance whenever he wants for good bucks, so you can take as much vacation as you can afford

:wink:
 
nbcrusader said:


And economic traditions (pensions, benefits, guaranteed employment) are just as hard, if not more difficult, to change.

True!

It is difficult to change - one time you had this, you don´t want to miss it.

In my last Key Account job, I got 14 monthly wages per year (instead of 12), had 4 weeks of paid holidays in the first year, got unemployment benefits after I was gone, had a three-month time frame before I could leave the company, and was paid when I was ill. In return, I did many extra hours for free (in the range of about 5 hrs per week - normally they would have to pay 150% of the hourly rate) - which is very usual in sales branches.

That´s the conditions we fought for - through many, many years. However, the system is getting blasted by the type of independent contracts/ project work where you will only get paid per hour, have no paid holidays (but can take some when you want), no payments when you´re ill, etc. etc. ... no one wants a job like that, but since unemployment is high, the workers are forced into these situations.
 
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars said:
you only have 2 weeks of holidays? what´s THAT??!!


that's the sound of HARD WORK and GUMPTION made by a people who have PULLED THEMSELVES UP by their BOOTSTRAPS and not the sound of LAZY EUROWENNIES who are too busy stuffing their faces with BRIE and MERLOT when they should be WORKING FOR ENRON or toiling for a COMPANY that will FIRE them whenever MANAGEMENT gets just A LITTLE BIT nervous about the BOTTOM LINE!

(when you read that, try and hear the Pacino scenery-chewing inflections the caplitalization demands)

(and try to play the Star-Spangled Banner when you do)
 
I knew Bob Lefsetz stole this from somewhere. I LOVE capitalizing. I LOVE pacino. You GOT it.
 
I support the French who are in the streets.

The funny thing about capitalism is when the bosses complain that the workers are spoiled and don't like work, they never look in the mirror.

Many people are still born rich, live lavish lives as capitalists, where the closest thing to work they do is lifting the golf clubs in and out of the trunk.

I don't think the US should be lecturing anyone about economics now. Our example? Ransom our grandchildren's futures in debt to a country (china) where civil repression and sweatshops are the norm?

Anu

Anu
 
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